Fall 2017 Applicants

[Romanista]

59 minutes ago, EmmaJava said:

But I think those sympathies may dwindle when you take aim at students and their motivations, especially when you bemoan the game that you - having no choice - lamentably play. Funny how everyone who begrudgingly decides to play the game is also, simultaneously, above the game. 

I have a choice, I'm choosing the career that I want. I'm just saying that there is only one route to my career, which is graduate school. But if my family was broke, or if I had a family to raise, or if I had terrible health problems or whatever other problem, there's no way I could do this. I'm not in that situation. I realize that I'm privileged. If we restrict creative writing to just MFA holders, we are in effect shutting out non-privileged voices. 

[heliogabalus]

I'm getting really confused:

So "it's snobbish and unfair because not everyone is in a position to go to graduate school and either go into debt, or live in poverty for 2-3 years in order to get a degree," when that degree is in creative writing, but to do that for 6-10 years for a degree in English or Comp-Rhet is sound because it's playing the game to get the career you want?  (Although, very few actually get that career, and instead end up adjuncting with worse salaries and benefits than the custodians that clean the classrooms.)

You can be a writer without an MFA, that's not going to change--ever. It's just harder to teach creative writing at a university without one (or more commonly without an MFA and a PhD), just like you can write scholarly works without a PhD or working in academia, it just makes it harder to get a job with benefits. (Although James Wood seems to be doing ok with what is basically an undergraduate degree.) 

 

Edited July 1, 2016 by heliogabalus

[Romanista]

1 minute ago, heliogabalus said:

I'm getting really confused:

So "it's snobbish and unfair because not everyone is in a position to go to graduate school and either go into debt, or live in poverty for 2-3 years in order to get a degree," when that degree is in creative writing, but to do that for 6-10 years for a degree in English or Comp-Rhet is sound because it's playing the game to get the career you want?  

I never said it was sound. It's extremely risky. It's a terrible idea. The opportunity costs are enormous. Most people will never get a TT job. I'm active enough on this forum to know all that. I'm just saying that we are privileged enough to follow our dreams by going into those scholarly fields, and the only real way into a full-time job in those scholarly fields requires graduate degrees.

If I was really hypocritical, I would be spouting off some nonsense about English is different from Comp Rhet because the latter's job market is better. I'm not doing that. English and Comp Rhet, regardless of the terrible job markets for both fields, require graduate degrees if a person wants to work full time in either field as a researcher and or teacher. 

[heliogabalus]

At the end of the day, you are spending time in a graduate program (with awful employment prospects in the field) because you enjoy discussing and working with Rhetoric and Composition. I just don't think that is any different than spending time in a graduate creative writing program because a student would like to spend time discussing and working on writing (with awful prospects of becoming a published writer able live off their writing profits). It is the same thing. And since all (9 or so) American creative writing PhDs fund, so that's not any different than a comp/rhet PhD. The top MFAs fund very well (Michener, Michigan, JHU, etc.),  better than any other English MA. And I would imagine that funding for creative writing MAs and MFAs is not far less common than with comp/rhet MAs.

Do you have any direct experience with MFAs? I do, and am reluctant to champion them, but I don't think they are so guilty of the ills you accuse them of spreading.

[Romanista]

I do have experience with MFAs as my MA institution probably has as many MFAs as MAs in the English department, and we have MFAs in creative nonfiction, poetry and fiction. I've taken classes with MFA students and Creative Writing faculty. 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about how creative writing differs as a field from literature or comp rhet. I just think that creative writing is kind of split into the MFA world and the NYC world, as Chad Harbach explained in his book, and that helps to separate these disciplines, but you may see it a different way. I've been pretty repetitive about my opinions on this subject, but most of what I've written here isn't fact, just my own views. 

Edited July 1, 2016 by Romanista

[klader]

On 7/1/2016 at 1:28 PM, heliogabalus said:

You could complain that MFAs are professionalizing artistry (I would still disagree that creative writing is more spontaneous than critcism--seems like a very Romantic idea), but you could also argue that rhet/comp MA students are deprofessionalizing writing instruction, since freshmen are no longer being taught by professors and PhDs. Creative writing programs at some schools are cash cows, but how much money do universities make by farming out freshmen writing classes to new grad students instead of hiring more professors?

I'm not actually against rhet/comp programs or rhet/comp ma programs. I just think it's funny for people in one exploitative program that offers unrealistic hope to scoff at those in another.

While I don't have much to contribute to the MFA part of this discussion (not experienced in this!), I would like to comment on the rhet/comp part here. I hope I don't cause too much trouble.

Comp/rhet MA programs typically DO fund students. I know that Carnegie Mellon doesn't, but a lot of other (usually state) schools do, so it's not really a cash cow in the ways that some MFA programs seem to be. Also, composition courses are the kinds of courses us comp/rhet folks want to teach. They're not something we do just to make money during grad school but are also the things we want to study, research, contribute to, etc, so it's all directly related. 

With that being said, I don't feel like it's fair to call comp/rhet MA programs just as exploitative as other programs. What do you mean by exploitative? Exploitative to the graduate student or to the students the graduate student teaches? Because in both cases, I think it works out rather well - the grad student gets to teach what he or she loves and wants to study, and the students get a graduate teaching assistant who's really into teaching comp.

I could understand you saying that all MA TAs are deprofessionalizing writing instruction because of the fact that they're not full professors and are more inexperienced, but I really don't see how you can single out compt/rhet MA students. There's also an increasing amount of students starting their MA in rhet/comp after finishing a BA in rhet/comp instead of literature or a related field, so in that case, I would argue that comp/rhet MA programs are becoming even more professionalized.

Just my $0.02, though!

ETA: When I say that composition courses are "not something we do just to make money during grad school," I don't mean to imply that other people in other programs view it as such - I just mean that it can double as job experience and research material due to the nature of the comp/rhet field. I wanted to clarify that!

 

Edited July 2, 2016 by klader

[Dr. Old Bill]

Alright folks...it's August 1st, which means that the first application deadlines (Northwestern, UCLA etc.) are a mere four months away!

How are we doing? Where are we at? What is our status? And who are we??? Seriously, let's start talking about this!

 

 

[erosanddust]

41 minutes ago, Wyatt's Terps said:

Alright folks...it's August 1st, which means that the first application deadlines (Northwestern, UCLA etc.) are a mere four months away!

How are we doing? Where are we at? What is our status? And who are we??? Seriously, let's start talking about this!

I just solidified my list of programs last week, which means that the sense of exciting possibility has begun to morph into a much sharper focus on a clear target. That's exciting in some ways, because it makes my aspirations more concrete — but it's also terrifying because, well, that target is only ten programs big and there's a decent chance I'll miss it entirely.

This week, I officially turn my attentions to drafting my SOP and editing my Writing Sample. So it begins. 

[Dr. Old Bill]

Sounds like you and I are on a virtually identical timeline, @erosanddust! I just met with my advisor (who is also one of my letter-writers) this afternoon to glean any tips or pointers from her with regard to the SOP (she has been on a bunch of admissions committees). So now is the time to officially start drafting the SOP. My Writing Sample is solid, but I'll need to edit once I get some more feedback on that as well. And yes...I have a shortlist of 14 programs that I will whittle down to 10 - 12. There are still a few I need to research more, but I can't see myself going over 12 this time, which is scary for the same reasons you state...

So it begins indeed!

 

[aob981]

After several years of hardcore lurking now, I am actually posting here. After finishing undergrad in 2013, I'm planning to apply to English MA and PhD programs and a few American Studies MA and PhD programs this cycle. I started application process (took lit. GRE, worked on personal statement, and writing sample, reached out to undergrad. professors) last cycle, but had too much going on at work to give time needed to applications. I'm interested in working with 19th and 20th Century American Literature, particularly Southern Literature, and situating it in a global/transnational context. I see myself fitting in best in a program that embraces and provides ample opportunity for interdisciplinary work.

I did well (3.8GPA) at the small, not so well known liberal arts college I attended; based on practice tests, I hope to score 167+ on verbal GRE (155+ on math); got a 590 on literature subject test; assume my recommendations will be good; my writing sample is in my area of interest, but focused on film; have been working on my SOP for a while. Participated in summer research fellowship program during undergrad.; recently presented at ACLS conference.

A few questions:

-Should I be applying to mainly PhD programs or more focused on MA? I do want to get PhD eventually, but based on how competitive those programs are, should I be more focused on MA?  Currently, my list (which changes daily!) consists of 15 English PhD programs (ranking from 10-82), 4 American Studies PhD and 2 American Studies MA Programs.

-If I should be more focused on MA programs, is there a comprehensive list of funded MA programs anywhere? I don't plan to pay out of pocket for MA program, but also think that there may be opportunities that I'm not aware of to get funding? It seems like very few programs offer funded MAs, but that can't be correct based on some of the posts that I've seen here.

-Is it a problem that I have been out of school for 3 years now?

-Is it a problem that my recommenders aren't well-known in their field?

-How important is it to contact POIs?

-Would it be a problem to apply to English program and American Studies at the same school? I really like both English and American Studies programs and UNC and Maryland. 

-What resources did you use to help with writing SOP apart from people reviewing them? Are there good samples online anywhere or any books that are helpful?

Sorry for all questions about me--these have been weighing on my mind for a while now, and it's always nice to talk to others who are navigating a similar situation.

Thanks!

[Dr. Old Bill]

Welcome, @aob981!

Just a few thoughts...

I'm a little concerned that your WS is centered on film. This might be an issue if your stated focus in your SOP has nothing whatsoever to do with film studies (and it sounds like it wouldn't). One of the most common mantras I hear about applications -- something repeated by my advisor yesterday -- is that your WS should be closely related to the field you are interested in, and that it should work in tandem with your SOP. The way I see it, there are a couple of ways that you can mitigate the issue. You could, of course, put together another WS, or make judicious edits that position it closer to your interests. I'm not sure I would recommend that. The other option is that you can gear your SOP slightly toward the material mentioned in your WS, and find programs that have POIs you want to work with, but also see if there are some who might be interested in the film-based ideas in your WS. One important thing to always keep in mind is that the only purpose of your application (and all its materials) is to get an offer of admission. What happens once you are admitted into the program is completely up to you. If admitted, you could suddenly decide that American literature is not for you, and that your real passion lies in Restoration comedy. It might raise an eyebrow or two, but no one would block you from doing that. In other words, there is nothing particularly disingenuous about tailoring your application materials to give you the best chance at acceptance.

Based on what you have said above (and remembering that this is all I have to go on...), you might be best served by getting an M.A. first. I would have hated this advice two years ago, when I applied to nothing but Ph.D. programs (yet gratefully accepted a "funded" M.A. offer). But while I still think that I could have done well in a Ph.D. program sans M.A., going through a year of graduate-level work and engaging in the professionalization etc. that comes with it has proven to be extremely valuable. It has also gone a long way toward sharpening my academic focus -- my era has remained the same (early modern / Renaissance), but my specific research interests have changed completely. In other words, getting an M.A. first can allow you to really get a sense of the kind of research you want to do and what kind of scholarship really interests you. If you are currently a bit torn between American Studies and English programs, shorter-term graduate-level work in one or the other might clear the picture for you.

Lists of funded M.A. programs are elusive, but I recall seeing some efforts at compilation here on GradCafe in the past two years. I'm guessing that doing an advanced search for "funding" in thread titles in this form should uncover a few of those threads...

It shouldn't be an issue that you've been out of school for three years, nor that your recommenders aren't well-known. As for contacting POIs, there are different schools of thought. I know of people who made a point of contacting someone at every program they applied to. I myself contacted a few a couple of years ago. Still, I asked this very question to my advisor yesterday (who has been on a number of Admissions Committees over the years), and she said that for her, it had literally no effect. YMMV.

I'll chime in more later if others haven't done so in the meantime...

 

[echo449]

@aob981, I don't want to discourage you from applying to American Studies programs--as I think that the fact that your writing sample is on film makes clear a commitment to interdisciplinary work--but you should keep in mind that AS programs have worse placement rates than their English counterparts, except at the very top. Interdisciplinary/cultural studies programs do not do as well as they did a decade or two ago, as the market has gotten worse. Not to be a downer, but that's kind of important.

Secondly, if you are applying to English departments...you really ought to have a writing sample that involves the close reading of literature. Film is not considered "in field" in most departments--it may be "in period," but only in the same way a fresco is "in period" to an early modernist. This is not to say you cannot work on the intersection of film and literature--I read a decent amount of film theory myself--but that, since many of the programs you're applying to won't have the faculty necessary to do a dissertation on film, a film writing sample could well announce you as a poor fit for the department, right off the bat. 

Thirdly, and I'm just going off of my personal experience here: contacting PoI's doesn't really matter. I got lovely responses from schools that rejected me; completely ignored by schools that recruited me heavily once offers went out. But! YMMV.

Fourthly, cuz I'm just editing this post as I browse the internet and realize I have more to say, not having big deal recommenders won't hurt you. I mean, it certainly helps to be anointed by Stephen Greenblatt after doing yr undergrad at Harvard, but that's not a pre-requisite for getting into a top program. 

Fifthly, (see how I'm really just going about this at random?), being older and applying after having been out of school is DEFINITELY not an issue in the humanities. While certain programs tend to attract people going straight through, a lot of programs tend to have average ages in the mid-twenties. I was on the younger side of my cohort by starting at 23. You just need to make sure that your writing sample and SoP demonstrates your current knowledge of the field...something even recent undergrads may not know a lot about, given how many undergrad curriculums are structured.

Can you tell us the whole list of schools that you have right now?

Edited August 2, 2016 by echo449

[erosanddust]

EDIT: Sorry, aob981! I totally got your interests confused with the Rhetoric applicant in the other thread I was just reading, so my input is largely moot. I'll keep my original comment below should anyone be interested in the links I've included.

I'm not (nor do I know any people who are) studying Rhetoric, so I won't try to address your other questions. Re: your writing sample, I just wanted to point out a line on OSU's Prospective Students' Guide: "The topic of the writing sample does not have to be an exact match: an applicant in rhetoric, for instance, might gain admittance if she submits an essay about a film – but almost certainly, the essay would have to use rhetorical analysis in interpreting the film"

Of course this is a rather straightforward point & it's here coming from just one school, but I thought it might be a helpful addition to the good advice that others have already offered about the purpose of the Writing Sample.

Speaking of that OSU guide, I found it really helpful because it's very transparent about the admissions process & what they are looking for in each part of the application. Duke's SOP Guidelines on their FAQ page were similarly helpful. Has anyone come across any other great Prospective PhD Student pages?

Edited August 2, 2016 by erosanddust

[Warelin]

@aob981

There are some programs who have a heavy preference on straight-from-BA applicants. These programs include: Penn State, University of Illinois, and Indiana University. For Illinois and Indiana, you apply to their MA program which is funded. Upon successful completion of the MA, they move you on to the PHD but you have the option of applying to other schools.

Have you considered looking into Pittsburgh and Nebraska? Both have strong film studies housed under the English department.

[aob981]

@Wyatt's Terps @echo449 @erosanddust @Warelin

Thank you all so much for such helpful information! I appreciate it.

The issue of the writing sample has been a concern for me. Before writing it and since, I asked the supervising professor if it would be a problem for grad school apps as it analyzed film and she assured me a couple of times that since the first 10 or so pages of the paper are about literary theory and as I am interested in interdisciplinary approaches (including film), that it should not be a problem as it's not totally out of left-field. I do however, see where you're all coming from. Thanks for the suggestion to tailor it to departments that do have professors working in those areas. Do you think it might be worth explaining in my SOP that though the work reflected in my writing sample applies the theory I'm interested in to film, moving forward, I'd like to apply it to x,y,z authors/texts? 

@Wyatt's Terps I appreciate the advice about applying for an MA. Last year, I would not have wanted to consider it, but this year, I have actually come to see it as a good, possibly better option for me. My concern would be paying full-tuition out of pocket.

And @echo449, your point about American Studies and placement definitely makes sense. My list is below. If you have any other suggestions of places to include or get rid of, please let me know. These are based on having professors, courses and special resources/curriculum related to my interests.

 

@erosanddust Thank you for OSU site! I've seen the Duke page, but the OSU information is very helpful as well.

@Warelin Good to know about the straight from BA programs. And I really like Pittsburgh's program! I have not looked into Nebraska, but I'll do that--thanks!

Again thanks so much for all of your help, I appreciate it. Now to figure out what to do about my writing sample...

School	Ranking	Program
Yale	2	Phd American Studies
Brown	9	Phd American Studies
UCLA	10	PhD english
UVA	10	English
UNC	16	PhD English
UNC		PhD American Studies
Indiana	22	PhD English
Emory	26	PhD english
Vanderbilt	26	PhD english
USC	36	PhD English
UC-Santa Cruz	39	PhD English
University of Pittsburgh	39	PhD Literature
Boston University	44	PhD English and American Lit
U Mass Amherst	50	PhD English
University of Maryland	52	PhD English
University of Maryland		PhD American Studies
University of Florida	52	PhD English
University of South Carolina	77	PhD English
MA Programs
U Mass Boston		MA American Studies
University of Mississippi		MA Southern Studies
Georgetown		MA English
Wake Forest		MA English

[echo449]

It's late, so I don't have a ton of thoughts at the moment, but you should definitely add Austin to your list. They have a well-regarded American Studies program as well as a diverse and large English faculty (w/ film incorporated!). 

Can I ask what theory yr using, and how exactly your interests are? If you don't want to reveal too much specific info, feel free to PM. 

[hmss9245]

I took the GRE test yesterday and my verbal is only 154... feeling crestfallen...

[Dr. Old Bill]

3 hours ago, hmss9245 said:

I took the GRE test yesterday and my verbal is only 154... feeling crestfallen...

Well, the good news is that it's August -- you can retake it in a few weeks, and will be able to use the "Score Select" option to just send your best scores to your programs. Hopefully you didn't opt to send the scores to the four "free" institutions after the test was complete. Practically speaking, the GRE is absurd, but realistically you'll want to get your verbal into the 160s for best consideration. The CliffNotes guide to the GRE General seems to be quite helpful (I'm retaking the test on Tuesday), and a fellow grad student who teaches GRE prep on the side strongly encourages the Barron's book. See if you can get one or both from a library, or buy if necessary, then give it another shot! It sucks to have to throw down another $205 and 3.5 hours, but as crestfallen as you may be, at least you didn't leave it too late. There's ample time to bump up that score! Good luck!

[hmss9245]

20 hours ago, Wyatt's Terps said:

Well, the good news is that it's August -- you can retake it in a few weeks, and will be able to use the "Score Select" option to just send your best scores to your programs. Hopefully you didn't opt to send the scores to the four "free" institutions after the test was complete. Practically speaking, the GRE is absurd, but realistically you'll want to get your verbal into the 160s for best consideration. The CliffNotes guide to the GRE General seems to be quite helpful (I'm retaking the test on Tuesday), and a fellow grad student who teaches GRE prep on the side strongly encourages the Barron's book. See if you can get one or both from a library, or buy if necessary, then give it another shot! It sucks to have to throw down another $205 and 3.5 hours, but as crestfallen as you may be, at least you didn't leave it too late. There's ample time to bump up that score! Good luck!

 Thank you for your answer!  Yes I will try another time in October^^

[samisayss]

Hi everyone! 

Ive been a lurker on this site for awhile now, but thought its about time I join in the conversation since everyone seems so helpful

I too am getting ready to apply for PhD programs for Fall 17 (I will finish my MA in English this December), with my specialty being Rhet/Comp. I've been narrowing down my list and now have 12...is that a good number? My main concern is that I have a wide range of hard-medium-safety schools. I have a fairly solid GPA, but I am worried about my GRE scores. What are some of the schools that you other rhet/comp-ers are applying to, and how did you decide? What are you main concerns? 

 

[sarabethke]

On August 6, 2016 at 6:31 AM, hmss9245 said:

 Thank you for your answer!  Yes I will try another time in October^^

Yes, SUPER common to retake the GRE and do much better. It was hard for me to imagine that practice matters more than knowledge, but I honestly believe that lots of practice is what helped me improve. I think started out with a 157 and improved my score a lot. Definitely focus on verbal and spend some time practicing the writing according the your guidebook's guidelines.

[jungThug]

I'm trying to narrow down my recommenders for this season's applications and I got thinking about other applicants with more famous or reputable recommenders. For example, there might be an applicant from Harvard whose crappier writing sample might look like gold coz its got a Stephen Greenblat endorsement ("You can't see it now, but trust this guy knows whats up! He'll make historicism new again!"). The opposite could be true of an applicant from Cardinal Direction State U whose awesome writing sample might be undermined coz nobody knows the recommenders. Am I over thinking this? I kinda hope that I'm over thinking this. But at the same time, I know for a fact that prestige matters in academe. That's one reason why the folks from Berkeley, UVA, University of Pennsylvania, etc. get the TT appointments and post-docs. Thoughts? 

[Dr. Old Bill]

4 hours ago, jungThug said:

I'm trying to narrow down my recommenders for this season's applications and I got thinking about other applicants with more famous or reputable recommenders. For example, there might be an applicant from Harvard whose crappier writing sample might look like gold coz its got a Stephen Greenblat endorsement ("You can't see it now, but trust this guy knows whats up! He'll make historicism new again!"). The opposite could be true of an applicant from Cardinal Direction State U whose awesome writing sample might be undermined coz nobody knows the recommenders. Am I over thinking this? I kinda hope that I'm over thinking this. But at the same time, I know for a fact that prestige matters in academe. That's one reason why the folks from Berkeley, UVA, University of Pennsylvania, etc. get the TT appointments and post-docs. Thoughts? 

Almost everything I've heard suggests that LORs don't weigh very heavily. There probably is a bit of relative prestige -- a Big Name LOR might garner an extra eyebrow-raise or chin-stroke than a general scholar LOR -- but it's the whole package an adcomm looks at, particularly the SOP and WS. With a few exceptions, LORs are ALL positive, saying the same great things about the candidate, which means they basically cancel each other out.

[jungThug]

41 minutes ago, Wyatt's Terps said:

Almost everything I've heard suggests that LORs don't weigh very heavily.

I hope you're right! On the other hand, academics move in networks (atleast those in R1 universities) and if you can leverage those networks, certain doors have been known to open themselves more readily. Its a jungle out there and as much as I would like to believe in the supposed meritocracy espoused by higher ed, there's a lot to be said for how incredibly opaque the grad admissions process actually is. 

[Dr. Old Bill]

20 hours ago, sarabethke said:

Yes, SUPER common to retake the GRE and do much better. It was hard for me to imagine that practice matters more than knowledge, but I honestly believe that lots of practice is what helped me improve. I think started out with a 157 and improved my score a lot. Definitely focus on verbal and spend some time practicing the writing according the your guidebook's guidelines.

I just retook it, and scored a bit WORSE than the last time. My scores were already fine, and a strong argument could be made that I didn't need to retake it at all, but I thought that perhaps a couple of years of additional academic immersion might bump up my verbal to the loftier heights of the high-160s, rather than the more pedestrian low-mid 160s. Alas, it was not to be. So another $200 and multiple hours of studying down the drain. It's annoying, because I truly have an excellent vocabulary, but I suppose standardized testing just isn't my cup of 

A.) Coffee
B.) Warm water
C.) Tea
D.) Ovaltine
E.) Hot cocoa