English Programs: MA before PhD? Please advise...

[grifter]

Let me frame the situation. Over 2 years ago, I applied to PhD programs in Literature and was summarily rejected to all of them, save a few offers for masters programs--including the hotly debated MAPH program at Chicago and an interdisciplinary MA at NYU. I may have been a little too foolhardy in my belief that I would get even one PhD offer, but I felt that I was at least competitive at some of the programs: a 3.95 undergrad GPA, middle 90's percentile on my GRE verbal, some publications, 2 years of ESL tutoring experience, lots volunteer experience and (I thought) a focused interest for grad studies. With stinging pride and increased wisdom, I decided to hold off and reevaluate my prospects.

2 years later, I find myself reapplying to programs. My hiatus has given me 2 full years of experience as a speech writer for the Director of a DOE laboratory, as well as a year of Adjunct teaching experience at the college level, but still, this time around I am cautiously aiming at both MA programs at what you could call "2nd tier" schools (state schools, well known but not Ivy-caliber private institutions), as well as a few MA and PhD programs at some bigger schools. My ultimate goal is the PhD, without question, but for the time being, I am convincing myself that there is wisdom in first pursuing a Master's degree, doing well, and then re-applying to the "Upper Tier" schools. I have made the assumptions that:

1) Having a Master's degree will show PhD programs that I can perform beyond the BA

2) The process of earning a Master's degree will help me find depth in certain areas, and allow me to stem some of my generalist tendencies

3) Earning the MA will afford me increased teaching experience

4) I will subsequently gain stronger letters of recommendation and a more focused statement of purpose

The drawbacks to this route are obviously the time of earning a discrete MA and THEN a PhD, and the cost of earning 2 individual degrees.

I guess my reason for posting this topic is to garner reassurance from some of you salty and salted grad students--reassurance that this route (BA at one school, unique MA program, PhD program) can yield its own benefits. Am I deluding myself? Have any of you followed this course (I think I read that Minnesotan is doing this)? Do my assumptions hold any water? Help me objectively see the realities of this course of progress.

Concerning my situation, there are quite a few subtleties that I didn't care to address for the sake of space, but I would value any opinion based on what you know. Regards...

[Minnesotan]

As much as earning an MA has made me a stressed-out grumpy SOB, I look back at my writing and research from two years ago and am shocked to find out how much I've grown (i.e. "Who wrote *that* piece of @#$%?!"). Even if it were just a matter of getting used to the lifestyle of a grad student, an MA was a very good idea for me. As far as how it affects my writing and research skills (I thought I was a very good writer before - now I'm not so sure I was), there is a world of difference already.

I also think having an MA in-hand, or close to it, alters the way people see you. They know you're a dedicated academic, rather than someone with a bachelor's degree who isn't really sure what they want to be when they grow up yet. They know you've learned some of the research skills you will need to succeed, and they realize that any grade you've gotten in grad school required a constant struggle, whereas undergraduate grades are cheap.

Add to the research concerns your extra two years of teaching experience, conference presentations, and workshop/seminar participation, and earning a separate MA is something quite significant. Let alone having the ability to see a two-year thesis through to completion (for better or worse, ugh!).

There are other reasons for doing an MA first, too. I did mine to take a step up from my state university to a "Research I" before assaulting the very top programs in my field. They say prestige is overrated, but "they" are kidding themselves. Name recognition goes a long way.

Hopefully the course I chose will help me get into better PhD programs. I know it has helped me grow as an academic. My advice to you would be to think about what you want out of your grad program before jumping into anything. If you get a nice PhD offer, by all means go for it, but there is no reason to snub an MA (especially funded) program that could help get you on your way. The experience is invaluable!

[picklejar]

I agree with much of what Minnesotan said.

Like you, Grifter, I applied to both MA and PhD programs, but got the best offer from an MA.

Now, three years later (I got my MA in August, and am now teaching while applying to PhD programs), I'm really glad I did. I think I am a much stronger, more focused, more polished candidate this time around. Of course, we'll see if that's true in a few weeks...

And I might be in the minority, but what's the rush? I'm in no hurry to stop being a student and enter "real life." Particularly when my studenthood is funded.

[halifax]

I agree with Minnesotan, although this is the first year I am applying to PhD programs, and do not really know whether or not my MA will be enough. I did my BA in three years in Greek and Roman Civilization with a conc. in Mediterranean Art and Archaeology, then promptly entered a program in order to receive my emergency teaching certification in Sp. Ed. (My bread and butter for the last 4 1/2 years has been teaching elementary and middle school students with special needs).

I then went back to school for my MA, but I was still teaching middle school full time (this way, I didn't have to take out loans and could actually pay for it as I went). Sometimes I thought I would collapse with all the effort, but it paid off in the end--I now have a stellar thesis, great recommendations due to professional relationships I cultivated during the process, and I even received an adjunct professorship for two survey art history courses at a state university the very week after conferring my MA. While I had to turn down their offer of a third course in order to teach my young 'uns this school year, I feel that the MA was an excellent stop on my road to a PhD. Now as I apply to doctoral programs, I am more confident than ever of my writing skills, my GRE verbal score jumped 130 points, and I feel that my app will show I have the dedication it takes to be a committed graduate student. I will keep my fingers crossed, and whether or not I get in to these top tier programs, I have certainly grown as a student and will apply again next year.

I hope that helps a bit, grifter. Good luck to you!!!

[Minnesotan]

Plus it's fun to make your girlfriend call you Master (of the Arts).

*ahem*

[grifter]

'Sotan: No snubbing will be had from me. This time around, I am going to entertain all offers. Frankly, anywhere I go will be a step-up from my undergrad alma mater.

Pickle: Very true; why the rush? From examining current graduate profiles in some of the bigger programs I am interested in, it seems that a majority of the enrolled students have pursued the BA-MA-PhD route, and this occurred sometimes over the course of 12-15 years. I think patience, coupled with my sincere desire to learn will pay dividends. Thanks for your thoughts.

Halifax: Thank you for the vote of confidence and your explanation. I am eager to see what offers you get.

I guess that, more than anything, the success rates of all you PhD applicants with MA's will be the most telling factor of whether or not there is wisdom in this approach. Best of luck to all of you.

[rising_star]

Just to add grifter, I'm not in English but I have had a good time doing my MA. I got to learn research methods, read and discuss theory critically, engage with other graduate students, etc. I think all of that will be very beneficial if/when I go on to a PhD. Sure it may take more time, but you can try to get a trajectory. Like I want to study nonprofits so my master's thesis is on a local nonprofit and I want my dissertation to be on some nongovernmental organizations doing work internationally. So in that sense, my MA isn't wasting any time. I'm getting to do a lot of the background reading I would need for the dissertation plus I get to engage with it and get feedback from others.

This may be different in English but my department really encourages students to use graduate seminars to work towards their own projects. So the final papers are a bit flexible in topic because they want you to write something that you can use for your thesis/dissertation or a potential publication. Just more for you to think about.

[canadiana]

I'm not sure how it works in English, but I suppose it may be similar to History (my discipline). I was encouraged by my mentor to apply to PhD programs, but I honestly didn't think I stand a chance for the PhD programs. A Masters might be better for me. I don't have a lot of research experience, and my GPA and GRE scores are mediocre at best. I see it as a positive, though. A Master's program would allow me to develop the skills needed to hopefully succeed in a PhD program later on, and would make the transition to PhD easier. And I agree that a Masters degree demonstrates a good track record of success at the graduate level, which a lot of undergraduate students don't demonstrate (even if they may have the abilities to succeed).

Definitely go for the PhD if you get in, but don't turn down a Masters offer - they are quite valuable in the long run.

[crossedfingers]

I have a completely unrelated question to the thread above, but since this was a joint for English majors I thought it could be best addressed here.

During an exit interview from my undergraduate university, I was asked if I could re do my education, what would change. My answer took both me and my advisor by surprise. I said i would have been an English major. (I'm ChE right now , worlds apart I know!) Honestly I think what he wanted to hear was that I would do the chemical engineering curriculum ' a thousand times over' - ha! The look on his face, nope not even VISA could buy that:)

anyhow, I was wondering, if anyone out here knew anything about scriptwriting/directing? What kind of a degree do you need? Do you go for further study? I have been looking into this for a while and it seems like they prefer undergraduate english majors? IS this correct? How does one go about becoming a script writer? Do you take an intesive course at the new york academy and then just hope u were born under a lucky star?

Film school has been something I wanted to pursue since I was in 8th grade, ( i think?). Somehow, family pressure sucked me into a hard arse engineering curriculum. Dont get me wrong, I rock at what I do right now, being an engineer and all that jazz. But something always seems missing. I convinced myself that once I was done with engineering, earned the dollar dollar bills, I would direct/produce films. Is this even possible?

[Minnesotan]

There are a few Writing BFA programs in the U.S. that could really give you a step up. I would look at them, and make sure to take all of the screenplay and scriptwriting workshops they offer (as well as their fiction and cnf. Taking independent workshops without academic credit may teach you something, but it's less than worthless when applying without an English or Fine Arts degree of some sort.

Why you'd want to change from a career with a future to one where you need at least an MFA to succeed is beyond me, though. Then again, all of my degrees are useless, so who am I to talk?

[goonie1234]

I would have to agree with many of the people who posted previously. When I was a senior undergrad, I thought about applying to PhD programs, but as I was embroiled in an honors thesis and in the midst of deciding what life outside college was like, I figured I would take time off. I spoke with a lot of my professors and their suggestion was that most students who had applied (and been successful) for PhDs had either taken a few years out or had gone and done MAs. I ended up applying for MAs from a few English universities (I work in postcolonial studies, so the UK was a good choice as far as theoretical development, etc.). I got into MA programs and had a decent choice of where to go.

Thinking back, the MA really crystalized for me what I really wanted to do: I felt comfortable assembling and presenting developed readings of texts in front of different types of people, my theoretical vocabulary greatly improved, and I generally felt that I became a stronger, more confident writer. Furthermore, I got experience at large conferences, giving papers, receiving criticism and submitting papers for publication. When I went back to the US, however, I had to take GREs and everything (which is quite a shift from actual, tangible critical practice)--and after a stressful year and an eventual acceptance to a PhD program, I decided that another year out was what I needed (both personally and professionally). Now, this year, I've reapplied and I have a few more choices. And while it has been frustrating to delay my progression a bit, I really am happy that I had the experience of the MA: another chance (besides my honors thesis) to develop and complete an extended research project.

Of course, I have not started PhD work, but I probably will next year, so I would not be the best person to ask. But honestly, what I can say is that I'm very happy that I did my MA. Now I have a lot of good faculty mentors as resources and numerous friends who I feel really know my work and my aspirations. I feel that this background really aided me in applying to PhD programs and figuring out what direction I want to take my graduate school research and future career.

Hope this helps!

[ZacharyBinks]

I have a question for everyone: when I was accepted to Ohio State, they told me that of their incoming cohort of 18, 9 have BAs and 9 have MAs. Do you think many schools intentionally consider MA and BA students separately like Ohio? Or do you think most schools just lump everyone together and choose the best candidates regardless? I wonder because Ohio has been my only PhD offer; the rest have been MA programs (a couple from pretty good schools) and so I wonder if my relatively bad luck has been due to the fact that I'm applying with just my BA. Thoughts?

[gnmcclur]

I have a question for everyone: when I was accepted to Ohio State, they told me that of their incoming cohort of 18, 9 have BAs and 9 have MAs. Do you think many schools intentionally consider MA and BA students separately like Ohio? Or do you think most schools just lump everyone together and choose the best candidates regardless? I wonder because Ohio has been my only PhD offer; the rest have been MA programs (a couple from pretty good schools) and so I wonder if my relatively bad luck has been due to the fact that I'm applying with just my BA. Thoughts?

 

It depends. Some schools have programs that are specifically designed for students that have just finished their B.A. (Chicago is one example). Other schools are different, and are designed so that it really doesn't matter one way or the other. Chicago as a whole accommodates M.A. students, but from what I've gathered the English program is primarily designed for students who have just finished their undergraduate degree(s). I've never heard of a school rejecting a student, though, because they already have an M.A. In terms of already having a B.A., many schools might possibly reject you (if, unlike Chicago, their program isn't specifically designed for finished undergraduates); NYU, I recall, says that they are more than willing to consider a student if they just have a B.A., and UBC says that on certain occasions some students can go straight from the B.A. to the PhD.

 

But if the school isn't like Chicago in the scenario mentioned, it is always a possibility that there are students with M.A. degrees who have a bit more research experience, publications, teaching experience, etc.

Edited March 13, 2013 by gnmcclur

[Phil Sparrow]

I've never heard of a school rejecting a student, though, because they already have an M.A. 

 

I have. 

[gnmcclur]

I have. 

 

Please elaborate, then. What was the scenario in which this occurred? I'd like to know, too, especially since this is new to me.

[AurantiacaStella]

Some programs/professors want to mold/shape you to their methodology, and that is harder to do if you've already done graduate-level work.

[dmmar]

Some programs/professors want to mold/shape you to their methodology, and that is harder to do if you've already done graduate-level work.

 

Not really—especially if they don't allow you to transfer any/many of your credits from the Master's degree, because then you have to go through their program anyway. 

[dmmar]

Thought I'd add my thoughts here: 

 

1.) My undergraduate GPA was not stellar; not terrible, but definitely not competitive. I also studied Philosophy and French, and didn't take any English courses. So, the first time I applied to PhD programs, I was rejected everywhere, and offered two MAs: one from NYU, one from my current university (which doesn't have a PhD option). 

 

2.) It's not super common, but some MA programs, like mine, offer teaching assistantships, which will also help your application. My TAship covers tuition and a small stipend. Although the stipend isn't enough to actually live on, I've had support from my parents and my fiance to help get by. 

 

3.) This is my last semester in the MA program, and I'm so happy that I did it. I've learned so much, have a much better idea of what I want to go into, built solid relationships with my professors who gave me a lot of support and advice before and during the application season—and who also wrote me excellent letters of recommendation, and ultimately put together a competitive application (and have received great offers from PhD programs this round). 

[AurantiacaStella]

Not really—especially if they don't allow you to transfer any/many of your credits from the Master's degree, because then you have to go through their program anyway. 

Transfer credits don't really have anything to do with it. Just because you go through a second set of coursework, that will not necessarily change your way of thinking, which could become firmly established in your masters program. I'm not saying this is necessarily common and it's definitely not good to be inflexible, but one of my recommenders told me to be careful -- especially with programs that prefer applicants straight from the BA -- not to present myself in such a way that it seemed I had everything figured out as a result of my master's degree. Would be curious to see what PhilSparrow thinks about this.

[KenAnderson]

I am finishing my MA in English Rhetoric and Composition this year, and yes, my writing, my research skills, and critical thinking improved greatly! Just compare any writing sample...a paper by a MA student will outshine any undergrad paper. There are a few programs that will only accept MA's.

Edited March 14, 2013 by KenAnderson

[toasterazzi]

When I applied to grad school last year, I knew I wasn't quite ready for PhD programs. I'd been out of school for two years and I wasn't sure what I wanted to focus on or commit to yet. Now that my first year of my Master's program is almost complete, I can definitely say I made the right decision. My writing skills have grown tremendously and I've learned quite a bit about the professional world of English academia. I've been able to teach two courses each semester and I have a more defined idea of what I want to focus on as I look toward applying to PhD programs.

[bbuoy10]

On the off chance that people are still responding to this thread, here's my situation. I'm interested in getting a PhD, but I've been out of school (a 'mature' student) for many years. I have a BA in English and an MA in Liberal Studies, which I received in 2005. I'm wondering if I should work on an MA in English since:

 

1) My other master's was not in English.

 

2) It's been almost 10 years since I earned my last degree.

 

3) I don't have a recent writing sample. 

 

4) Much of my real-life work experience involves writing or editing, but I don't have any teaching experience. 

 

PhD programs are, obviously, competitive. So although I'd rather not spend more time in school before I actually get to the doctoral level, it might be in my best interest. Any thoughts?

 

Thanks. 

[iExcelAtMicrosoftPuns]

On the off chance that people are still responding to this thread, here's my situation. I'm interested in getting a PhD, but I've been out of school (a 'mature' student) for many years. I have a BA in English and an MA in Liberal Studies, which I received in 2005. I'm wondering if I should work on an MA in English since:

 

1) My other master's was not in English.

 

2) It's been almost 10 years since I earned my last degree.

 

3) I don't have a recent writing sample. 

 

4) Much of my real-life work experience involves writing or editing, but I don't have any teaching experience. 

 

PhD programs are, obviously, competitive. So although I'd rather not spend more time in school before I actually get to the doctoral level, it might be in my best interest. Any thoughts?

 

Thanks. 

What are your interests?  

 

[Dr. Old Bill]

First of all...welcome to Grad Cafe!

 

As for whether or not you should get another M.A. or try to go directly into a Ph.D. program, well...that's a good question. All I can offer is my opinion, which should be taken with a sizeable grain of salt. Be that as it may, here are my thoughts on the matter:

 

I suspect the biggest concern is the gap between your last degree and your current plans. The main problem that comes with that is not having any current letter writers (unless you've kept in touch with old profs) other than employment-based ones. It also shows that you may be out of touch with current educational standards, and might be far removed from the scholastic environment. Have you done any programs or studies at all in the intervening years? Have you kept tabs on things in the interim? Even things like being a subscriber to the Chronicle of Higher Education, or something along those lines can always help in your SOP.

 

Your other Master's was not in English, but was at least in a field that is in the ballpark of English, and given that your B.A. was in English, I'm guessing that that won't be a big problem. It's also a major bonus that the work you've been doing involves a lot of writing an editing. These are the sorts of things that can inform your SOP as well. Teaching experience probably doesn't matter much either (most folks here, other than those on the comp/rhet track have little or no teaching experience either -- in other words, it's really not a prerequisite for Ph.D. applications). Not having a recent writing sample shouldn't be an issue, so long as you have a writing sample that is of the right length and quality (assuming its on an historical topic, or something that isn't inherently tied to 2005). The other option, of course, is to write something new from scratch. This would be a good idea if your specialization interests have evolved since you graduated nine years ago.

 

Is funding a concern for you? Funded M.A. programs exist, of course, but they are almost as competitive as funded Ph.D.s., and fewer and farther between. And if you're just looking at an M.A. as a springboard to an eventual Ph.D., then it's worth considering that some programs seem to prefer candidates with only a B.A., while some prefer candidates with M.A.s. Having two M.A.s has the potential to make your academic trajectory look unfocused (i.e., an adcomm in a couple of years might see your B.A. and two M.A.s, not to mention your age -- you must be well into your thirties -- and think you're a "career student"). So there's that angle as well.

 

My gut tells me that, depending on your area of interest, you should try going down the Ph.D. route. Be forewarned, however, that you'll need to take the GRE general test (at the very least), and some potential programs might require the GRE subject test, which is only offered twice in this cycle: late September and late October. Also, you'll need to find at least three quality LOR writers, whether they are former professors, current supervisors, or others who are very familiar with your writing and/or professionalism, work ethic etc. Your SOP will have to be fairly unique, and I suspect that in your case, you'll want to explain why you've spent the last ten years in your current field, and why you now want to get a Ph.D. It's unusual, but not unheard of. And some programs will see your experience as a benefit (I'm not personally mentioning my age directly in my SOP, but it's always required on application forms and it can be inferred anyhow).

 

Anyway, I'm not sure how helpful all of this is, as it's just my opinion based on what you've presented. I think it will be a bit of a harder sell for you than for some others, but not by such a large degree that it's not worth pursuing. The biggest obstacle at the moment will be getting everything together over the next three months. You'll probably need to do some very thorough research in a short span of time to determine the best program "fits" for you. This is easier if you have a research focus in mind, as you can correlate that focus with the interests of other professors / departments. After that, it's a question of getting all of the materials sorted out: SOP, WS, LORs, GRE tests, transcripts (you'll want to get on that sooner rather than later, thanks to the time since your previous graduation), a C.V. (this will be more important for you than for some others), and other intangible items. It's doable, and if your true goal is to be in the academic environment for the rest of your life, then it is worthwhile. I don't think (personally) that getting an M.A. first will be worthwhile. It's just one more year (or more) of schooling, considering that few of the credits transfer over, in most cases.

 

This is a long spiel, delving into "tl:dr" territory, but as a fellow "non-traditional" applicant, I hope that at least some of this makes sense for you. Either way, good luck, and feel free to PM me if you have any "older applicant" questions.

Edited August 24, 2014 by Wyatt's Torch

[xolo]

I don't think your age or absence from school should be feared - that will only precipitate that which you fear.  Under NO circumstances should you discuss yourself from point of view of age, time out of school, etc.  (Please see my first point).  In my opinion, subject to being very wrong, time is working against you for F15.  I will have spent 2 years getting ready to apply to grad school by the end of academic 2014-2015.  It was a cultural shock to go back to school but while racking up some credits I also really improved myself, met some incredible people, and also have some great LOR writers, but, not to be a downer, it took 2 years to accomplish this.  You only have a few months to write your SOP which for me would be very little time.  But I don't see why you can't do what you state. 

 

I have the same issue of MA vs. PhD and I am mostly applying to MA programs but have a couple of PhD programs in the mix.  The problem is in Spanish departments, especially in California, the admit rate in top programs can be as low as 10%, very competitive and severely budget limited (in my opinion).  For example, at UCLA for the last year data is available (I don't remember the exact year) there were 30 applicants and 2 admits.  So I don't know if I'm being overly cautious or not but have opted mostly for MA apps for now.

Edited August 24, 2014 by eyepod