a fragrant plant

This is very bad. Academic world is small so it's not like they'll never find out. Your name will be listed on the graduate students webpage for at least a couple of years. You may argue that you can get away with it because you're only pursuing a terminal MS, but what if you encounter some of the people in a national conferences later on? How are you going to handle the embarrassment when your plan go busted? I would never ever risk my reputation to do something as foolish as this. Yes it's ALL ABOUT YOU, but you need to think long term. There are many other ways to gather information about a school without paying a visit. I found it extremely helpful to talk to current graduate students and potential advisors. If you haven't done that you should.

based off of my interviewing of others relentlessly, meaning a lot of discussions with people who have their PhDs and people in the middle of their programs and people who have quit and gone on to other things, I have come to the conclusion that there are as many reasons not to finish as there are people in PhD programs. But the primary culprits appear to be the following (in no particular order, and keeping in mind I was polling English profs and prof wannabes):

1. wrong fit, either in terms of department and or/subject matter. Most of the people who have told me this was their reason were traditional, straight-through PhD students. A lot of them indicated they wished they had taken a gap year before starting because they didn't think they would have gone into the program in the first place. Only a couple were people who had done something else first and then gone back to school.

2. burnout. A lot of people get halfway through the academic portion and just start thinking: "God, I'm so tired of being in the classroom! It's not worth it!" There are also a lot of people I have spoken to who told me they got to a point where they were sitting in their classes thinking: "I already know all of this, what's the point?" When it got to where they had to take classes, but they really felt they knew more than the professor teaching the class, they lost focus. A couple of these quit their program, most of them got to burnout part two....

3. burnout part two. They work themselves to death, for a pittance of a stipend and / or fellowship, and it's drudgery with no end in sight (their words, lol). They teach freshman comp class after freshman comp class, they barely have time to get their own work done, and "if this is academia then screw it!" (in my opinion, these are people who probably should be in the "wrong fit" category, but were too stubborn to say so - they like the IDEA of professorship, they just don't like the reality - which is teaching and grading a lot of poorly prepared students among the shining starts). Most of these end up getting to ABD, but then they hit burnout number three

4. ABD burnout. In this case, they've worked their butts off for two or three years taking classes and teaching classes. Now they're faced with the freakishly stressful idea of writing their own book, from scratch. They also have way less supervision. The temptation to revert to pre-PhD coursework slacking off status can be extremely hard to resist - if your first chapter's not due for three months, why not rest and take some deserved down time? The fact that they managed to get as much done as they did while teaching lures them into a false sense of security in terms of what they can get done in what amount of time. Then they freak out because the chapter is due and they haven't started researching. This leads to missed deadline after missed deadline and active engagement in trying to avoid everything having to do with the dissertation, which eventually becomes a not-written dissertation.

5. Dissertation fear - this isn't quite the same. You don't not do it because you're burned out, you don't do it because you are paralyzed at the idea that your idea might not be good enough, your dissertation isn't going to be long enough, your thesis might be debunked, your writing might show you as a fake scholar, you may never get it defended - this one is a purely psychological hangup. Apparently (based on what I've been told) people in this category "knew" they were going to have to write a dissertation "eventually" - but when "eventually" came around they felt so overwhelmed they couldn't get past that. In this case also, a lax advisor is very unhelpful - if you are already terrified, and then your dissertation advisor expects you to be a fully independent scholar and does not offer you a lot of support (i.e. handholding) this can result in an unfinished (unstarted) PhD. Some people need more coaching than others. Knowing this about yourself ahead of time can save you grief because you can then make sure you choose an advisor who is more willing to give you extra assistance/coaching through your hang ups. Alternately, (I have been told) seeking out a therapist and talking through this is a good idea.

6. family issues. This can take the form of anything from aging parents, to young children, to family members with disabilities, to your own disabilities, to divorce, death, etc. etc. etc. - but the stress of real life can absolutely, when coupled with the stress of dissertating, lead to no dissertation - if something has to give, it's often the PhD, at least temporarily...and if time runs out and you can't get an extension, then that's that.

7. Program cuts/lack of funding to finish out. This can be because there's already a lot of debt in the family or because you choose specifically not to go into debt, but finances appear to be an important reason not to finish.

These were the most often listed problems with getting the PhD...but there were several others as well. Essentially, I think you just have to stay focused and motivated - and since your PhD is a very personal and individual thing, that's sometimes really hard to do.

Hope that helps...?

This is very bad. Academic world is small so it's not like they'll never find out. Your name will be listed on the graduate students webpage for at least a couple of years. You may argue that you can get away with it because you're only pursuing a terminal MS, but what if you encounter some of the people in a national conferences later on? How are you going to handle the embarrassment when your plan go busted? I would never ever risk my reputation to do something as foolish as this. Yes it's ALL ABOUT YOU, but you need to think long term. There are many other ways to gather information about a school without paying a visit. I found it extremely helpful to talk to current graduate students and potential advisors. If you haven't done that you should.

This is very bad. Academic world is small so it's not like they'll never find out. Your name will be listed on the graduate students webpage for at least a couple of years. You may argue that you can get away with it because you're only pursuing a terminal MS, but what if you encounter some of the people in a national conferences later on? How are you going to handle the embarrassment when your plan go busted? I would never ever risk my reputation to do something as foolish as this. Yes it's ALL ABOUT YOU, but you need to think long term. There are many other ways to gather information about a school without paying a visit. I found it extremely helpful to talk to current graduate students and potential advisors. If you haven't done that you should.

This is very bad. Academic world is small so it's not like they'll never find out. Your name will be listed on the graduate students webpage for at least a couple of years. You may argue that you can get away with it because you're only pursuing a terminal MS, but what if you encounter some of the people in a national conferences later on? How are you going to handle the embarrassment when your plan go busted? I would never ever risk my reputation to do something as foolish as this. Yes it's ALL ABOUT YOU, but you need to think long term. There are many other ways to gather information about a school without paying a visit. I found it extremely helpful to talk to current graduate students and potential advisors. If you haven't done that you should.

How "bad" is it to accept all your offers and not actually decide on which program you'll stick with till after you've REALLY had a chance to figure it out and visit campuses? This would mean first saying yes to all offers, then telling all but one school that you're really sorry and you made a huge mistake and actually, you won't be attending their program in the fall despite what you committed to earlier (and losing some money on tuition deposits, etc).

Does this happen all the time? I don't know who I'm afraid of pissing off, but it can't be good to burn bridges before you've even made them in the world of academia. At the same time, I feel compelled to visit the campuses I am accepted to before I make a decision and I can't very well do that without missing class and spending a fortune on plane tickets before April 15 (and no one's offered to fly me out; these are all terminal MS programs).

Were I to fake-accept all my offers, it'd definitely buy me some more time. I could visit in a month when it's most convenient for me. I don't know why I feel the need to prolong this horrible decision-making phase, but I just don't feel quite ready to kill off my other options yet.

Of course there's the ethical line of thinking in which other really qualified people on wait-lists are dying to get in and I would just be prolonging the torture for them and messing up their plans. What if someone who's waitlisted at their 1st choice, which happens to be a school I accept and then later back out of, doesn't find out they're accepted till August, after they've already made lots of plans to go to another school? I'd be pissed if that were me.

But then again, this is ALL ABOUT ME. In many ways this whole process is a selfish one. There's fierce competition. So is this type of move a seriously dirty trick? And should I care?

I am 27, getting married next April, and looking to start a PhD in the fall of 2011. My fiance and I are looking forward to starting a family sooner than later, and while I'm its quite a challenge no matter when you decide to start a family, we're thinking things might go a bit smoother while I'm in school .
However, when I spoke to my older sister about this, she gave me some advice I thought I'd pass along. She suggested that the best course of action is to only look 6 months ahead. Don't try to plan out the details of your entire life, or entire academic career, or anything of the sort. Things may change in your relationship, in yours or your significant other's schedules, in your family's health or prosperity.... Or, you might just realize that you're still not quite ready. Just decide "Are we ready to have a child in the next six months?" and if not... keep moving ahead and focusing on (and enjoying) all the life events that are going around now, instead of just looking towards whats coming next.

By the way.... for some of the biological debate. I'm not an expert in the field by any means, but I thought I'd throw out a few things. You are borne with a set number of eggs.. It's not just the fact that you have less eggs as you get older, it's the fact that your eggs are getting older and starting to degenerate. That's why women are encouraged to start a family when they are younger. Once you have had your first child, the huge influx of hormones refreshes your eggs to some extent, making it safer to have children later in your 30s and I suppose even early 40s, but there is still an increased risk as time goes by. But these are not magic numbers. It's not that when the clock strikes 12 on your 30th birthday, your chances of a healthy baby suddenly plummet and your entire body chemistry has changed... They're just rough thresholds based on statistical studies. Every woman is different, and every couple is different - I agree with several posters that the most important thing is making sure you AND YOUR PARTNER have the time, commitment, and energy to take care of a new life you bring into the world - be it the healthiest baby or not.

Well, with the UK Msc you won't be able to do much but apply for a PhD if you want to go into teaching in academia. And fully funded PhD places are not that easy to obtein, which I am sure you know. So if you know that you want to carry on as an academic, I would really take the US offer straight away.

I am angry on your behalf.

I did much worse than the OP and got into Columbia University. LOL a good GRE score is nothing without excellent LORs, a high GPA, and substantive work experience. A banger personal statement couldn't hurt either. Do your best and to heck with all the rest.

At the end of the day, no one seems to care what research you have done unless of course if its ground-breaking shit! The names of the institutions on the Bio count and a quick look of the profile is not gonna give you a whole heck of a detail about the person's caliber but if one has that elitist tag in there it sure helps one go places.

I don't think digits was trying to say that the actual Brand name matters in terms of prestige--I agree that it is a matter of access. Anecdotally, I know plenty of people with shiny top 10 school degrees that fall flat during the graduate school process and students from less ranked schools that go to Ivies. They all work hard, but some have to work harder. If we equate "Brand name" with more funding, resources, opportunities,etc and if we take two equally determined, hard working students, the one from the "Brand name" school may just have more opportunities and an easier time finding funding for his/her research. I went to one of those special snowflake schools and sought to use all the resources I could. A student of equal potential in a non-special snowflake school may not have the same access to the money I had for research and conferences.

Another issue that has nothing to do with prestige OR access that I don't believe I've seen on this board yet is how coming from a "Brand name" school affects your mentality. If everyone around you acts like you're a special snowflake and can only succeed, it encourages you to take greater risks and be more confident in your work/research. In my brief semester of psychology, I read something about a case study where elementary school students who were treated as "failures" tended to produce poor work, but if teachers changed their attitudes and acted as if the student was perfectly bright and capable, the student would respond to this with significant improvement.

I agree with Waiting2009's sentiment.

Department Name, Advisers, School Reputation, etc are all secondary compared to the individual's motivation and ability. People from lesser regarded programs often make a big splash in the professional world. Even more would if they believed in themselves as opposed to admitting they'll never be at the top unless they have certain places and names on their resume.

The point is you can get so easily consumed with these supporting factors that you forgot what is really important- yourself. If you have something valuable and unique to bring to your profession then your voice will be heard and recognition will come.

Shadowing the path of a successful professional does not guarantee you anything. It only shows that you're more concerned (obsessed) about the glamor and reward of being at the top than you are with doing the work to get to the top. You need passion and hard work for what you want to achieve. Aspire to love what you do. Achievement will follow as a consequence.

By the way, not all people measure success by what's on the resume or what has been published. A lot of published literature goes unread, unheeded, and unregarded.

I'm attempting a deferral right now. I'll let you know how it goes, and if I learn any tough lesson, perhaps you'll benefit from my pain if it comes to that.

Wish me luck!!!

Disclaimer: I'm assuming you've been with your bf for awhile and are almost positive this is the real deal and have no doubts about your relationship. In that case:

I think you should follow him. You love him, grad school is a great opportunity to see how you guys deal with stressful situations together, and if you do break up you're still at a fantastic school. I know the money seems like a huge obstacle now, but in the grand scheme of things it probably isn't much (you can apply to every fellowship possible for the remainder of your schooling there). You can't put a price tag on your lifelong companion.

I can't speak to the policies in academia but, overall, the US falls far behind Europe in providing for maternity/paternity leave. My husband is in the business world and got 1 week off for both of our girls. I've heard of a few companies that provide two weeks of paternity leave. The mother, ONLY if covered by a short-term disability policy, is generally given 6 weeks of paid (60% of salary) leave. (I know mothers who have gone back as soon as two weeks post-partum, relying on family to provide care until the day care will accept the baby at 6 weeks.)

I had the good fortune to be able to stay at home with my girls indefinitely but, overall, the US is not great for providing support for new parents.

Saving up money is definitely a big one - which I'd be able to do if I moved back in with my parents and worked for a year. Also, a year's break would be a great opportunity to work on language skills to boost my next round of applications. Receiving my first rejection from a PhD program actually put me in much better spirits about everything. Knowing that I'm not going there, and probably won't be starting a PhD anywhere else next year, has allowed me to get my head out of the clouds and to focus on my ongoing undergraduate work. I'm more committed to finishing with a bang, bringing up my grades so that I'll have better luck the next time around.

Everyone, including me, was very surprised at how little my rejection upset me. The way I see it, not getting in this year will give me an excuse to enjoy my youth a little bit before plunging head on into the soul-munching horror of a PhD program.

Whoa! That's some seriously toxic thinking, my friend. There's a middle ground between single mindedly sacrificing yourself to an ideal, and being ignorant and complacent. If grad school doesn't work out, is there some way you can create a life with the characteristics that attract you to academia? Something that challenges you, lets you be creative, lets you contribute, has some flexibility? Why not rethink your goal in terms of certain elements that you want in your life (something that you HAVE control over) instead of getting a specific position (something you have little control over)?

To extend my run of bad analogies on this thread.... we've probably all known someone who's so intent on getting married that she sacrifices happiness in other parts of her life, other goals, and eventually even the quality of her future spouse in order to reach that one goal. A $30 000 wedding and two years later, divorce. If she had focused on the reasons why she wanted to get married (companionship, excitement, time spent with family?) instead of the goal, things might turn out differently.

I'm a pragmatist and a bit of a cynic, but I think that if your ideal is making you so miserable that you say you have 'nothing to live for', it might be time to re-evaluate why you're pursuing that ideal in the first place, and try to achieve something similar by a different path. Grad school is not worth suffering like that for. I strongly disagree with the poster who says that being academics is "who we are". I don't believe there's one career path for any given person any more than I believe there's one soulmate out there for any given person. You intentionally build your life through dedication and hard work. If your choices so far are making you miserable, you CAN change things. You're only in your thirties, after all!

One thing that never seems to be mentioned in this forum is what to do after complete rejection. These boards can make even the smartest person feel inadequate, with all of the acceptances to elite institutions left and right. A student who is bright may find that all of their immediate plans are ruined. I’m here to try and offer a bit of encouragement and advice to those people.

I started as a student at a relatively small liberal arts college. I became enchanted with the idea of going to a PhD program and pursuing a career in academia. Like all of you, I was an accomplished student. I presented at conferences, had a high GPA with decent test scores, and had great letters of recommendation (from faculty that aren’t universally known, but still great letters). I sent in my applications with grand hopes that were soon dashed away: not one single acceptance from a full-fledged PhD program. I was basically left with no plans.

The stage after rejection is by far the most difficult. I really had no idea what to do. I ended up having to keep my remedial college job at a local car repair shop until the next round of applications were due. I decided this time that I needed to get a masters degree of some sort to make myself more appealing down the line. To my original chagrin, my advisor told me to pursue a more practical degree and enroll in theoretical courses while attending. This would give me a bit of a safety net, just in case things didn’t work out on the PhD front.

Well, I had much better luck applying to MPA/MPP programs than PhD programs. Obviously, these programs aren’t nearly as selective, but it felt good to get some sort of validation for my efforts. I was lucky enough to receive a full-ride with a research assistantship at a good, but not highly ranked (top 35) program. I decided that I would roll the dice, and not take on the heavy debt burden of a place like NYU or GWU. I did pretty well during my graduate studies. I was in the top ten of my class, worked on a lot of research, and thoroughly enjoyed my time in graduate school (I don’t think I know a lot of people who can say that). I reapplied to PhD programs with better success than before (2 out of 5 if I remember correctly). I was accepted into two good, but not what people consider top tier programs (top 30 or so).

After the sense of relief that I finally got into a PhD program faded, I really started to do some soul searching. Why was I so enchanted with academia? It wasn’t the prestige because, sans the few rock star professors, being an academic isn’t the most glamorous position. It couldn’t be the pay because, well, it’s not that great. The lifestyle of a tenured professor is pretty amazing, but that’s a pretty big roll of the dice for a middle-to-upper class lifestyle. So, exactly what was it? It was because I just didn’t know anything else. I had been programmed to think that the only way to have a rewarding, self fulfilling job was through academia. I decided to try and make it in a non-academic position to see what else was out there.

After about two years of professional experience, I’m currently at a job where I get to do some of the things I loved in graduate school with things that I never thought I would enjoy. I’m able to influence key policy decisions at the national level, sit in on high level discussions, and even work with some professors at nearby universities. It’s been an amazing experience so far that I hope will not end soon.

Now, the goal of this post isn’t for me to say that a PhD is a waste of time, or for me to say screw you to places that rejected me. It’s really just me trying to tell those people that were rejected, or those that are on the fence, that there are a lot of options out there where you can be professionally fulfilled. I will add, though, that getting some sort of graduate degree is a really, really good idea!

Sorry for the long post. I just know how tough it is for those that didn’t receive the news they wanted, and it has to be somewhat nice to hear that other people have been there before.

What I've heard from some very successful people:

Being liked and wanted is hard to trump. When people like you and are interested, genuinely, in your research they go above and beyond to help you be successful, i.e. giving you a first authorship, introducing you to important people, recommending you for opportunities. Harvard is a wonderful school with a great reputation (understatement much?) but will you have someone there that is personally invested in your success? Are they willing to let you shine? Or, will you be fighting for the attention of famous people that are more invested in their own career? Having Harvard on your resume is great but having a personal enthusiastic recommendation from a mentor intimately aware of your work and abilities is the gold standard. If you can get that at both schools then, by all means, choose Harvard. The world is a prestige whore and maybe it'll occasionally get you a phone number at the club. But, if you feel like you'd have a team at the State school don't discount that.

And another friend said it more directly:

Graduate school sucks ass but it sucks much less when you like the people you are working with.

People who tease those in other majors for working towards "useless" degrees should just be thankful that we're not doing the same subject as they are, and saturating their job market with more useful people.

My father, who is a doctor, constantly mocks me for studying a completely useless subject. When I point out at at least I won't be miserable for my entire adult life like he's been, he just frowns and walks away.

Very few well-respected jobs are useful these days. All the useful people - farmers, people who work in manufacturing jobs, plumbers, construction workers, electricians, etc. are those who are less respected for having received less education, and for being paid less. The one exception seems to be doctors. People pursuing careers in law or business like to sneer about how little money I'll make, but what they accomplish in their careers will likely be just as "useless" as my accomplishments. In fact, they may be even more useless, because at least someone following a more intellectually stimulating career path can have the satisfaction of, well, intellectual fulfillment.

As a society, it seems many of us, at least those with better educations, work in useless professions, getting paid to sit all day and fill out paperwork. So yeah, what I want to do may not be very practical, but unless someone has a truly useful job, I don't bother listening to the criticism.

To expand on this, you don't need to be friends with everyone in your department, though it's good to have some friends even if you have an active social life outside your department. I personally find it impossible to be friends with too many people, however it is important to be friendly with everyone. It's wise not to make enemies among the other students. Just in a very practical way, you are likely to need someone's help at some point in your career as a student, and you want to be able to get it.
I do think it's important to occasionally help out with things you don't really care about, and chitchat with people you don't particularly care for at department functions and parties. But there's no need to impress anybody or be their friend.

I just broke it down like this: I got rejected. It's either a numbers issue (my GPA is 3.9, but my GRE isn't great) or a fit issue. I can work on one in the next year (numbers), I can't work on fit. I contacted the DGS and politely asked what parts of my application weren't up to snuff. If she says "numbers", I can improve them and try again (assuming I don't get into another school this year) - if she says "fit", then I won't reapply.

I was bummed for about 15 minutes, but I'm totally Type A, so I saw a problem and addressed how to fix it. Moping takes way too much energy and I've got Archilochus to translate!

Before I start, let me just say that I'm not judging anyone, and I certainly understand the draw to gradcafe. I stumbled across gradcafe looking for acceptance stats for the schools I was applying too, and I was excited to find a place where I could discuss grad schools with so many people who are in the same boat.

But as a 2nd-round applicant, I can say that my perspective of the entire process was much healthier last year when I worried about my applications in the context of my life, rather than allowing myself to get caught up in the gradcafe environment where, due to stress and emotions, people blow things WAY out of proportion.

Know what I did last year after sending applications? Forgot about them, because I knew I'd have to wait 2 months. And I didn't check my email every half hour, and I didn't read the results board to check if anyone from my program got accepted, and I didn't have a panic attack every time the phone rang. From what I read on this site, there are very few people on this site that have achieved that level of calm.

I know there is a catharsis that occurs when you are able to discuss your fears and hopes with people in the same boat, but having constant access to a bunch of neurotic applicants only breeds more neuroticism.

I have always known I wanted to go to grad school- I've worked extremely hard, and I was devastated last year when I wasn't accepted to the schools I wanted to attend. But last year I got through the application process through talking with a few friends in similar boats, and focusing on my work, friends, and family. After my rejections, it was much easier to realize it wasn't the end of the world, because I hadn't invested my entire self to the responses of the schools.

A few people on this site have already realized that they need to take a few weeks off. All I'm saying is, maybe all of us should really consider how healthy it is for us to constantly ruminate with people when, at this point, it is out of our control.

I just got my first response, and it was an acceptance!

I got accepted to UC DAVIS into the Spanish PhD program.

My gre was bad.

Q 520
V 460
A 3.5


I wanted to share this, I was sooooooooooo stress out for my bad GRE...

Good luck every1

Seba