Lantern

No, walt526, I DIDN'T commit to this school! I can't believe my post was interpreted that way. I committed to a different school over a month ago. I would NEVER commit to a school without knowing what my project will be, who my advisor will be, or how much funding I will receive!!! Who would? You'd have to be crazy, to do that! That's like moving far from where you live for a job, without knowing what you will do, who your supervisor will be, or how mucy they will pay!

I would recommend that you have an answer prepared for if they ask you to what other schools/programs you're applying. Judging from the number of times this topic comes up here, it is not only common, but has also caught a lot of people off-guard.

I suggest a longer T-shirt:

Friends Don't Let Friends Develop Unreasonable Expectations About the Job Market, No Matter How Much Easier It Is to Pretend That You and Your Friend Are the Exceptions to the Rule and You'll Both Get Jobs Because You're Both Brilliant and The Unemployed People are Just People Who Aren't as Academically-Gifted As You Are. Instead Friends Acknowledge to Each Other the Exceptional Difficulty of Getting an Academic Job, Call Bullshit on Each Other When Appropriate, and Help Each Other to Professionalize Early and Often. Further, Friends Will Also Remind Each Other that While Getting a Funded PhD, You are Actually Getting Paid to Live Your Dream, If Only for a Short While, So While Academic Jobs May Be Few, It Was Still Worth It For the Opportunity You Did Get to Engage With Academic Discourse on a Daily Basis.That Said, Friends Certainly Don't Let Friends Get Unfunded PhD's. Nor Should Enemies For That Matter.

Just some thoughts:

I have a 5-year old dog that *I* raised since puppyhood. We're a package deal . Thankfully I live with my fiance so she'll be okay.

However, if you don't already have a dog, DON'T get one. They are good for stress relief, for sure... but they also add stress. You have vet bills, food, vaccinations, additional security deposits and licensing to think about; plus, little dogs have small bladders and need to go more often than big dogs, yet apartments (and sometimes, roommates) don't like big dogs. Then add the barking/noise, occasional accidents (getting sick, for example) - in more than one occasion I've gotten up at 3 AM and had to get out the shampooer to clean stuff, etc.

As for fostering... it's a lot of work. Don't do it - I say this as someone who HAS fostered. Plus, a rescue group will not let you adopt or foster if you're in college and don't have the time to spend on the dog.

Shelter dogs... they can come with a lot of problems too and they need a LOT of time and patience. My sister just had to rehome a dog we picked up from a shelter a year ago because he was not housetrained still (after two years!!!!) and was destructive. She's going to be a junior now and she has had no time to train. Thankfully he was a purebred and a rescue found him a suitable home (a family with a big yard). Since she's moving to an apartment with roommates, it just wasn't an option.

Just to clarify, not all shelter dogs are lots of work. I have had foster dogs from the shelter that were already housebroken and could be left uncrated without destroying anything. It's worth it to spend as much time as possible with a dog, whether you're adopting or fostering, before bringing it into your home. It's not fair to say that all shelter dogs come with problems or that fostering is impossible if you're in college. I fostered as a graduate student and scheduled time to train and play with the dogs into my day, the same way that I scheduled in office hours, going to the gym, and reading.

Thankfully I am not in grad school all year round. If the people who ran the program I'm in weren't complete idiots and maybe spaced the classes and such out more so normal people could complete them. Maybe have a semester be an actual semester long, or rather than have class for three days every four months for four damn years, get all the crap done and over with in a year or year and a half. When I'm not officially in class, I do have more time. But sometimes the homework they load us up with makes it very hard for me to do anything, like travel or look for work. So yes, it is very overwhelming and I think the program needs to be run like a normal master's program. I can barely get the assignments done and I don't even have a job - but then again, people who do work usually turn in a bunch of half-assed assignments and maybe one really nice one. Maybe if I quit trying and just do something without effort, it won't be as difficult.

It's too bad I am blamed for playing a "persecution card" simply for telling the truth. Some experiences are specific to my program alone, but some I think could be universal to all grad students. Perhaps from now on I should simply lie to make everyone else happy. I've been doing that my entire life, so why stop here? Grad school is a completely uplifting experience that is worth every penny and it will make you grow exponentially as a professional and as a human being. Even if you major in something you have zero interest in, even if you can't afford to be there, even if you don't want to be there...doesn't matter because grad school is nothing but sunshine, rainbows and happiness and time spent there will guarantee you a spectacular job that you love that also happens to pay very well. Please go to grad school, even if you're a complete drooling moron. And once you graduate, go get another master's degree or two - maybe a Ph.D. They're like Pokemon - you gotta catch 'em all. Have I mentioned how wonderful a life choice grad school is? The End.

Definitely understand how you are feeling Worn Out Grad....I have had the feeling of being stuck in a specific situation and not knowing if you will be able to get out of it. From what you are saying, it seems as though going into a doctoral program would not be for you, especially since you are having such a difficult time getting through a M.A program. A doctoral program will be a lot more intense and being a doctoral student will require a lot more responsibilities.

I'd say that if you truly don't see yourself going into a doctoral program, than don't do it. Despite your adviser pressuring you to go into another graduate program, you know yourself better than she does...you know what will make yourself happy, and like you said, you know your limits. So if you know for sure that you don't want to go into a doctoral program, set your foot down and don't let anyone try to dissuade you from your decision. I would then start talking to others in your field to figure out what jobs you could consider going into after you finish your M.A degree.

I do take a little offense to your statement that those pursuing a doctoral program are somehow "forsaking" their loved ones...I don't think that is really fair to categorize a whole group in that way. For the most part, going into a PhD program opens up opportunities for people, and though I can't speak for anyone else, my family, friends, and church all support my desire to better myself and create more opportunities for myself. They don't see my choice to begin a graduate program out of state as a move on my part to "forsake" them. Life is all about changes, and in my opinion, you can't really live a fulfilling life if you are always hesitant to change....and change also includes moving away from loved ones and those you truly care about. Moving away from people you care about is always tough, but just because you move away doesn't mean you stop caring about these people...you just have to find new and different ways of maintaining these relationships. So if your fear of moving away from people is at the root of your unwillingness to take on a doctoral program, I would really sit down and think about what opportunities you might be giving up.

However, if you really just don't want to be in an environment where you are "slaving" away hours and hours on end for 5-8 years and you think you need more free time in your life to do what you want to do, then I would say that yes, a doctoral program is not for you, and that is definitely okay. Academia is not the end all be all in this life...you can definitely be happy outside of it and have a fulfilling life.

Yup - I've felt that way ever since I started last year. Don't know about you, but I'm in grad school against my better judgment. It's not as much the work that stresses me out as much as the debt it will put me in. I'll have about $80K from undergrad by the time I'm out of grad school, and then possibly $50K more from grad school. I've considered suicide as a way to kind of escape the forced college, the debt, and everyone who lives my life for me on a regular basis.

But the people who I actually do care about are the ones who keep me going. I have grown resentful of higher education due to it being forced in me for the last six years, and I truly feel the student loan debt I have been forced to take on will make me live in poverty for the rest of my life. Talking can help if you talk to the right person - if you're truly serious about feeling suicidal, many people will just tell you to grow up, get over it, you're being dramatic, etc. That's common when you tell someone you're suicidal because they think you're attention-whoring (and I admit, some people like emo kids ARE doing just that). I suggest confiding in a close friend rather than any strangers because they'll just tell you you're crazy and doing something wrong.

Grad school is a very depressing place, though, so it makes sense. You have to do loads of incredibly difficult work, you hardly have time to even use the bathroom let alone have down time to watch a movie or read a non-academic book, you may often be exhausted and pushing yourself to be awake every single day, you might eat less. It's basically nothing but go go go, now now now with no time to rest. You might not even get a full night's rest for the whole time you're there. So believe me, I can understand how being in grad school can be so depressing - it's because it IS depressing, even if you want to be there. It's not like undergrad where you get a month to do one assignment and can have a little playtime here and there. There's none of that when you go for your master's.

Others may say otherwise, but my own experience has been depressing and has made me suicidal, upset, and turn to alcohol at times to cope. The worst part is if you choose to major in the arts or humanities, you are very unlikely to ever be able to even use your degree anyway, so that may make your studies even more depressing. I am only speaking from what I have personally experienced, though.

Yes. And No. It's normal for grad school to be stressful at times. And it can have a way of sucking the (rest of your) life out of you, if you let it. Some periods of stress are to be expected and there is not much you can do against them. But if it's a continuous thing that you don't anticipate will improve and is making you unhappy, you need to figure out a way to change something about your situation. If grad school is making you seriously unhappy all of the time, that is not normal. Often when you're really tired and things just look all around depressing, it helps to take some time off and do nothing, just to get some perspective on things (I like to watch whole seasons of America's Next Top Model or Project Runway on such occasions, but to each her own). But to address the more general problem, developing some time management skills along and learning to be assertive and say 'No' when you can't handle everything that is being asked of you is crucial. Also, I find it helps me to actively block out time in my schedule for "other" things - that is, non-grad-school fun, workouts, or just time off. You may need to evaluate everything that you are doing at the moment - maybe you need to step out of a project you're involved in? or slow down the progress of a project? or stop meeting with faculty who are drain your energy? or move office if its your officemates who are making your life more difficult? Maybe you should take a break from grad school altogether if you're just not enjoying the experience anymore. As others suggest, seeking someone's advice may be beneficial - it can be a trusted professor or friend or else someone outside your department. If you can identify the sources of your unhappiness and take active steps to correct them, that should lead to at least some improvement.

My mother has always believed that college degree = $100K. Doesn't matter what kind of degree or what field. She believes this because her coworker's daughter went to college for something or another and earns a six-figure income. Well, since I didn't get the coveted hundred-thousand dollar job a year or two out of undergrad, she decided it was for my own good to go and get my master's degree in art. Knowing full well I don't want to teach (thankfully she doesn't pressure me to do that). What she fails to realize is that if I list my degree (and possibly degreeS) on any joe schmoe job application, I will most likely be overqualified.

Oh, thought of another thing I hate: Saturday classes. That's more of a minor peeve just because I like sleeping in on Saturdays if I can. And travel costs for the semesters where I need to go to here or there, shell out for hotels and food on top of the damn tuition. Since I'm totally just made of money like everyone else in the program. :rolleyes:I do like one thing about the school...free coffee in the art building (and it's very good). That's about the only redeeming quality. Even the professors who I've told I am enrolled against my better judgment try to encourage me to stay (yeah - greedy pigs want their $$$).

My school definitely has its share of things for me to be annoyed about. These include:

- Takes three years to get a MFA (seniors say we have to take on a doctorate-level workload for a master's degree)

- Financial aid office ignores all loan applications because they expect you to fill out their special little form (I was eligible for $20K in loans, but the school would not give it because it was a federal loan. Meaning you can only get private loans here)

- Amount of work. Program claims to be for working professionals, but I hardly got everything done and I don't even have a job.

- People who are not only master's upperclassmen, but who have real jobs in art who make mediocre final projects. How can these people have such crappy skills and get hired? I hate to sound arrogant, but I know my skills surpass some of my classmates' skills, so why don't I have a job?

- Just a rumor...due to working people being unable to meet deadlines, the school is allegedly not letting anyone who works full-time enroll. This does not effect me, but it seems unfair.

- Cost in general. $4700 per semester and $500 for two weeks of food?

- Worthless classes like art history. Methinks this is just the school's way of squeezing a few more thousands of dollars out of everyone each year.

- Need to have an average grade of at least a B in each course.

- My major is set up in such a way that you cannot quit and come back.


I know a lot of those are money issues, but hey, I don't have any money whatsoever. And when I can't get a loan, it becomes a big deal. What about you? What goes on at your school that you hate?

TheSquirrel,

I see no need for you to feel as though you are somehow superior to MA students just because you are a doctoral student. Your post comes off a bit condescending with assumption that MA students are somehow not as serious about their studies in comparison to doctoral students. In my own experience as a MA student last year, I did notice this ill-informed judgment made by doctoral students, and their refusal to associate themselves with MA students really made the department a hostile environment at times. As someone who will begin a doctoral degree, I definitely will never make it a point to separate myself from people just because I am seeking a higher degree, especially since I have been on the other side.

Creating this artificial divide between you and and other members of the department is absolutely unnecessary...you miss out on meeting interesting people if you take that route.

To be honest, I think it's kind of silly to throw all the MA students under a single label. Who cares whether they are MA or PhD or no degree, find people who you get along with, make friends, and don't worry about what it looks like to others. I sincerely doubt anyone is noticing or caring too much about who you are hanging out with, unless you are hanging out with drug dealers or something.

Despite you claiming not to be elitist, these posts make you sound like you are, just based on your "Me vs Them" description of the situation. The fact is, they're students just like you, and they're probably only a few years younger than you. If certain behavior bothers you, avoid those students. But to lump all the MA students together seems kind of silly.

No, walt526, I DIDN'T commit to this school! I can't believe my post was interpreted that way. I committed to a different school over a month ago. I would NEVER commit to a school without knowing what my project will be, who my advisor will be, or how much funding I will receive!!! Who would? You'd have to be crazy, to do that! That's like moving far from where you live for a job, without knowing what you will do, who your supervisor will be, or how mucy they will pay!

I just had to post when I saw so many of you who shared the application process with me! I have largely been absent from this forum due to lack of time in my first semester, but I remember how reliant I was on these forums when I was applying, and have a fondness for those of you who spent lots of time here last year!

My first semester went great as far as enjoying where I am, who I work with, and the friends I've made. Overall I feel incredibly fortunate to be here and be funded, and whenever I think I don't want to be here, I think of how badly I wanted to get in last fall when I was working so hard at applications. The downside was the amount of time I spent studying for my classes, and I'm worried about my grade in one of my classes. After being out of school for over 10 years, and mainly working jobs where I got to be active and in the field, it was a huge adjustment to spend most of my waking hours at a desk studying or working on papers. I keep telling myself it will only get better.

I share the "stupid" feeling that I think is pretty common in grad school, and worry that I'm not cut out for it, but I'm not giving up!

My biggest concern last spring when deciding where to accept was the location of my school, and I am very pleased with the outcome. Although there are very few places to go out socially in the area, my friends and I are always getting together at each others houses to have pot-lucks, cocktail parties, play poker, whatever.

I'm glad to hear that many of you are doing well. And for those who are struggling, I would say just work on changing what you can, and accept the rest. Simple advice, but if you're motivated there's a lot you can change! Good luck!

Deciding where to go and preparing to apply were definitely the most difficult, but for very different reasons. Deciding where to go was agonizing, and for the months between when I decided and when I started I was terrified I had made the wrong decision. Now I know I didn't. Preparing the applications just took so long, and the SOP had to be adapted for each school.

Waiting for replies was not so bad - I didn't expect to get in anywhere, so when I started hearing back from schools with acceptances early, it got even easier.

The rest was easy. I had moved several times a year for over 10 years, so that was nothing.

What wasn't in your ranking was the actual being here and taking classes in things I haven't looked at in over 10 years - that's difficult!

Did you read the rest of the first paragraph, with a revised statement that might put it in better perspective for you?

Maybe that doesn't make a difference in relation to your second point, but I was thinking it might.

That said, I think those two statements go together quite nicely- a generalization followed with the personal and anecdotal evidence leading to the making of the generalization.

I'm sorry you seem to be taking what you are from my statements, the reason I'm continuing the discussion is I really don't think you should be taking "if you're finding it challenging, you're stupid" from my statements. You should more be taking "if you're making your classes challenging, you're doing grad school right".

You can see how the second one completely contradicts the first, right?

Or else the only grad students you've ever met are from your particular program...?

(I will also note that you are missing my other point: I am in a mental place such that "grad work isn't supposed to be challenging" and "grad students don't find classes that hard" mean "if you're finding it challenging, you're stupid." That is my problem, not yours. You don't have to defend yourself.)

Please don't "over universalize" my statement. I said that by and large graduate coursework is not supposed to be challenging. And perhaps it would be better to say that, by and large, in terms of grading, graduate coursework isn't supposed to be challenging. As I said, it's about setting your own degree of rigor in how completely you want to learn something- the push for excellence isn't pushed in the "top down" approach it is as an undergrad, where grading sets the degree of rigor. It's rare for people to earn even a "graduate" failing grade (C+ or thereabouts), and as the OP mentioned, it's well possible to just skate through the material and get As.

I'm not going to say my first semester quantum courses didn't have a ton of challenging material, or assignments that made me stay up several nights in a row to get done... But I don't think there was anyone in our class that didn't walk away with a B+ or better. The challenge comes in what you want to get out of the course, not in what the teacher makes you put into it, imo.

So the OP complaining that he doesn't have to put much work in to get A's and that's a bad thing strikes me as off. Grad school isn't about working just as hard as you need to get the A. It's about gaining a mastery of the material that you need to be able to apply in whatever subdiscipline you're working in.

Hey, truth is always the funniest stuff :-D I have yet to meet a graduate student that thought their coursework was particularly challenging.... Or a graduate adviser that thought it should be.

The head of our department regularly tells us that classes are overrated, and the sooner we get out of them into "real" graduate work, the better.... And it's the same thing I hear repeated over and over from others.

I agree about applying to your dream school, but not necessarily with the idea of doing your postdoc there, more with the idea that maybe you will get in the first time. I went through the application process last year and applied to a school I didn't think I had a chance at. I'm currently in my second week of classes at that school. Maybe I underestimated myself, maybe I got lucky. All I know is that I almost didn't apply here, and it has already been an absolutely amazing experience. So, I have two pieces of advice that may or may not apply to you: if it's not unheard of in your particular field, contact professors whose work interests you, and go and visit them if you can - even if you have to pay for it yourself. I know some people may shudder at this advice, but I'm pretty sure it's what got me where I am!

I can't emphasize enough how important I think visiting can be in science fields (assuming you can make a good impression in person!). From what I can tell, it is more important in the sciences than in other concentrations - mainly because you are going to be spending A LOT of time with your advisor in the field or in the lab. I'm guessing this is not as important for other types of degrees that are less "hands-on".

I visited 3 of the 4 schools I applied to last year, and I have no doubt that it helped, especially for the one I am now attending. I didn't think I had a chance of being accepted here, but I decided to visit, and now here I am! Even if you can't visit all of the ones you are applying to, try to focus on your top two or three and make every effort you can to get there. Contact professors in advance of your visit, and they'll most likely be very receptive to meeting you. By coming to them you are giving them an opportunity to know you without them having to shell out the money that their department very likely doesn't have right now.

Depending on where you want to visit, you may be able to plan a road trip and visit several schools within the span of a few days, or take advantage of family and friends who may be able to provide free lodging while you visit. All of my friends at my school also visited, so it is VERY common.

Aside from greatly increasing your chances of being accepted, you are really doing yourself a favor by visiting, assuming you haven't been there already. It will help you gauge the overall attitude at the institution, the approachability of your advisor, and even if you would enjoy living in that area for the next 3-6 years of your life.

If you are really serious about grad school, it is definitely worth scrounging together the money to visit.

I visited from September to early January (I was living on a research vessel, so it was a bit more challenging than just hopping in my car for a road trip). By visiting before you submit your application, you will be able to mention the professor by name in your SOP (assuming the meeting went well), and if it didn't go well, you may decide not to apply, saving yourself the application fee and most importantly the time commitment of completing another application.

Good luck!

Sounds like you've already decided, but just another thought: if, for whatever reason, you don't get in next year either, you will have "wasted" two years. If you're perfectly content doing whatever you're doing now, it's not a big loss. If you're not, there's no time like the present to start!

Dear (Lesser Institution, Institution Too God Damn Cheap to Fund Me, Horrible Fit For Me, etc.),
I would like to decline you offer for admission.
Thank you.
Nuff Said.

No one cares, this usually goes to a secretary or admin office. They simply cross your name off the list and move on to the next backup. Don't waste your time and energy trying to tip toe around you not wanting to be there.

I try not to vent or complain on this forum, but I just had to share this. I got an email on April 15 saying I had been accepted to this school. The acceptance email stated how impressed they were with my application, and were excited to invite me to join their program. Today I got an email from the department chair that said, "If you don't mind, let me get through some accumulated work this week, will get back to you on projects sometime in the next couple of weeks. We are still waiting to hear on assistantships anyway, so I will have more info on funding then." (That is a direct quote.) In the next couple of weeks????!!!!! I applied to this school in December, it's now PAST April 15th, and it will be a "couple of weeks" until they get around to telling me what my project could possibly be?????

In my major, (as I'm sure in many others) you really need to know what your thesis project will be before you get there, because your decision is usually based on what your project will be (that ever-present "fit"), and who you will have as an advisor.

All I can say is that I'm glad that I already know where I'm going.