An Unconventional Situation: Thinking about Leaving PhD to Reapply Elsewhere

[inneedofadvice2018]

Your two cents would be greatly appreciated, and I thank you in advance for weighing in.  Here are the facts:

1. I am currently enrolled in an APA-accredited clinical psychology PhD program in Year 2.
2. I am self-funded.  No tuition remission, and I work part-time to pay the bills.  There are few opportunities for funding in the future.
3. Most, not all, courses have been incredibly subpar. I do not want to get into specifics here since this is a throwaway, but I could not believe the extent to which faculty members got away with not imparting much knowledge for an entire semester or not updating their syllabi/readings for decades.
4. My research advisor is nearing retirement and therefore does not have a lab or any active research. His research interests are not aligned with mine at all. He is also rarely on campus. The program I am in is not a faculty-match program; you are first accepted to the program and then paired with a faculty member based on availability and interests. 
5. There are no other clinical faculty members researching my broad area of interest (or anything close to it). Because he is tenured, the junior faculty are unwilling to ruffle feathers and take me on as an advisee. I have tried, tried, and tried again. 
6. I am currently doing research at another institution in a productive lab; this is how I began to realize that my experience was lacking. The PI in the lab has been an excellent mentor. My advisor is not happy that I am seeking out external opportunities for research.
7. My externship supervisors have been incredibly sympathetic to my situation at school. They planted the seed in my head about considering dropping out and reapplying. They said that they see so much potential and that they feel that the potential is being wasted. The PI told me the same thing and stated that if I am open to reapplying,  she would want to get me presenting and publishing. I feel so grateful that people are willing to help me when they have nothing to gain from doing so. But to be completely frank, this all sounds so frightening to me. Transferring programs does not seem to be an option based on the preliminary research we have done; sure maybe some credits would transfer over but I would essentially be starting at Year 1 in what would be Year 4 for me. Programs seem to be very particular about how their students are trained. Looks like reapplication would be the path I would have to take. 
Note: I have missed the deadline for Fall 2018 entry, so this would mean beefing up my CV and reapplying for Fall 2019 with no guarantees that I would get accepted into a program. I am not a spring chicken and am 7 years out of undergrad.
 

[Piagetsky]

I'd bail.  I know the lost time is awful and it seems like a huge step back, but 7 years out of undergrad is not that old at all. This is the education you will have for the rest of your life, so if multiple people are telling you you're not getting what you're paying for (!), I'd listen to them. 

[inneedofadvice2018]

2 hours ago, Piagetsky said:

I'd bail.  I know the lost time is awful and it seems like a huge step back, but 7 years out of undergrad is not that old at all. This is the education you will have for the rest of your life, so if multiple people are telling you you're not getting what you're paying for (!), I'd listen to them. 

Thanks so much for weighing in, Piagetsky. I appreciate your advice..!

[1|]010ls10o]

What were the qualities that drew you to the program to begin with? Why are you attending?

You've basically only shown one side (the negative) of the program so anyone who reads will most likely reinforce the idea of applying to new programs or leaving. I've heard dropping out is a red flag and taints your chances of applying to other schools, so be prepared to have a great answer for why you made your choice.

[inneedofadvice2018]

1 hour ago, 21ny14 said:

What were the qualities that drew you to the program to begin with? Why are you attending?

You've basically only shown one side (the negative) of the program so anyone who reads will most likely reinforce the idea of applying to new programs or leaving. I've heard dropping out is a red flag and taints your chances of applying to other schools, so be prepared to have a great answer for why you made your choice.

Thanks, 21ny14, for taking the time out of your busy day to respond.  I've definitely thought about what it would look like to schools after seeing that I've left one PhD program sigh. 

I chose the program, because it was the only one I had gotten into. I had gotten interviews at a few other places and was waitlisted; all cited my lack of research experience. I was a career change (worked in special education and never imagined I'd go back to school, let alone for psychology). At the time, I had no friends/acquaintances in the field, so I reached out to PhDs in the area and the few that responded told me that these spots are highly coveted and that funding is not always guaranteed anyway. They suggested I go for it. I also felt pressured by my age at the time. My family could not believe I was going back to school and for a doctorate no less. At the time, I did not want to take one or two additional years to gain research experience and re-apply (which I know is what I'm considering now...ha). It was really hard to say no to the one acceptance I received, so I took it. I'm taking out loans now for my tuition and it would almost seem worth it if I was receiving a decent education and/or had a mentor supporting me in the program. But that's not the case.  I didn't foresee the advisor/quality of education situation until after I started the program.  
 

[letstrythiswinston]

People do transfer Ph.D. programs sometimes. It isn't common, but it happens -- I know a girl who successfully went through that process in Chemistry. I think the key is that you have solid reasons for the transfer. I wouldn't emphasize the subpar nature of your current program in your applications though, but things like the lack of funding to do the work you want to do and the fact that your current advisor supports the transfer.

I'm not familiar with how this process works though -- would you have to withdraw from your current program to apply to new ones, or could you continue working and doing research where you are until you obtain a new position? You don't want to cut yourself off from research you're currently involved in when it'll help you be successful later. 

[FishNerd]

I'm not in Psychology but I happened across this thread and thought I might throw out my two cents because at least in my field (Biology) being able to do the type of research you want during your PhD not only helps make you stick with it but it also really helps with your job prospects in the future (it sounds like your externships supervisors comments about getting you presenting and publishing is really good advice from where I come in biology - presentations and publications show that you have been active during your academic career and will make you a competitive applicant for whatever step you take next after your PhD). If your leave/transfer of another PhD program is brought up in your applications (or you address it in your application materials) you just be honest and say when you first went into that program you were really trying to break into the field which led you to accepting and unfunded position in a lab that has few research opportunities. Then you could mention that you have now had more research experience during your externship which led you to discover the type of experience and research you want to pursue at the PhD level which led to your transfer and application to another PhD program. I agree with @letstrythiswinston that maybe don't emphasize the problems of your current situation but I do think there is a way to talk about your experience honestly and show that your experience has led you to discovering the type of experience you really do want out of your PhD.

[inneedofadvice2018]

1 hour ago, letstrythiswinston said:

People do transfer Ph.D. programs sometimes. It isn't common, but it happens -- I know a girl who successfully went through that process in Chemistry. I think the key is that you have solid reasons for the transfer. I wouldn't emphasize the subpar nature of your current program in your applications though, but things like the lack of funding to do the work you want to do and the fact that your current advisor supports the transfer.

I'm not familiar with how this process works though -- would you have to withdraw from your current program to apply to new ones, or could you continue working and doing research where you are until you obtain a new position? You don't want to cut yourself off from research you're currently involved in when it'll help you be successful later. 

Hi @letstrythiswinston. Thanks so much for your encouragement and advice.  It really means a lot.

I could do either of those options.  If I stay in my program until I apply and get accepted elsewhere, I'd have to pay one more entire year of tuition and possibly take courses that may not transfer into a different program.  Therefore, if I decide to reapply, I would probably leave my program so as not to put myself into further debt and focus on conducting research at the lab I'm working in (at a different institution) and maybe find another research opportunity as well so that I can beef up my CV and make myself a more competitive candidate.  I wouldn't have to cut myself off from research I'm currently working on, since all of my research experience thus far has been at a lab at a different university.  

Also, there doesn't seem to be a transfer process (at least not that I know of).  I'm sure there are ways if I had any connections, but most programs I've cold called have told me that I've missed the deadline for this cycle and would have to wait until December of this year to reapply.  So transferring programs would mean starting from square one, assuming I get in somewhere else.

[inneedofadvice2018]

1 hour ago, FishNerd said:

I'm not in Psychology but I happened across this thread and thought I might throw out my two cents because at least in my field (Biology) being able to do the type of research you want during your PhD not only helps make you stick with it but it also really helps with your job prospects in the future (it sounds like your externships supervisors comments about getting you presenting and publishing is really good advice from where I come in biology - presentations and publications show that you have been active during your academic career and will make you a competitive applicant for whatever step you take next after your PhD). If your leave/transfer of another PhD program is brought up in your applications (or you address it in your application materials) you just be honest and say when you first went into that program you were really trying to break into the field which led you to accepting and unfunded position in a lab that has few research opportunities. Then you could mention that you have now had more research experience during your externship which led you to discover the type of experience and research you want to pursue at the PhD level which led to your transfer and application to another PhD program. I agree with @letstrythiswinston that maybe don't emphasize the problems of your current situation but I do think there is a way to talk about your experience honestly and show that your experience has led you to discovering the type of experience you really do want out of your PhD.

Thanks so much for weighing in, @FishNerd.  Yes, you're right.  I do think I could be frank (without casting a negative light on my current program) and explain my situation to the admissions committee if I were to reapply.  

[FishNerd]

You're welcome @inneedofadvice2018 ! I hope you figure out what's best for you going forward! If you think leaving your current program is best and you stand a shot elsewhere I think you should try because it just sounds like your experiences with getting your experiences will be night and day if you make a change. Good luck to whatever you decide!

[H1ppocampus]

Hi @inneedofadvice2018- based on your initial post and responses to some of the comments from others, I would be inclined to support a decision to leave your current program and reapply elsewhere for fall 2019 admissions consideration. Would the research mentor you have been working with be able to take you on as a paid RA or coordinator in the meantime?

If you do decide to withdraw and reapply for fall 2019, there are some [fully funded, APA-accredited] clinical programs that accept previously earned graduate-level credit hours, so you wouldn't necessarily have to start from square one. This information is typically available on program websites if you dig a bit, but I would also encourage you to contact graduate admissions coordinators of programs you're interested in preemptively, mainly to gauge how they respond to your situation- this could serve to give you a better sense of the "feel" or "culture" of a given department with respect to their opinions on non-traditional applicants. 

I wish you the best, as this will be a tough call to make. At the end of the day, you've got to follow your own path!

[inneedofadvice2018]

25 minutes ago, H1ppocampus said:

Hi @inneedofadvice2018- based on your initial post and responses to some of the comments from others, I would be inclined to support a decision to leave your current program and reapply elsewhere for fall 2019 admissions consideration. Would the research mentor you have been working with be able to take you on as a paid RA or coordinator in the meantime?

If you do decide to withdraw and reapply for fall 2019, there are some [fully funded, APA-accredited] clinical programs that accept previously earned graduate-level credit hours, so you wouldn't necessarily have to start from square one. This information is typically available on program websites if you dig a bit, but I would also encourage you to contact graduate admissions coordinators of programs you're interested in preemptively, mainly to gauge how they respond to your situation- this could serve to give you a better sense of the "feel" or "culture" of a given department with respect to their opinions on non-traditional applicants. 

I wish you the best, as this will be a tough call to make. At the end of the day, you've got to follow your own path!

Hi @H1ppocampus! Thank you so much for your well wishes and your two cents. I know I have a lot to think about in the next few weeks. It is indeed a tough call. I didn't know enough about the field when I started the doctoral program the first time around, and though I know more now, I'm still fearful of making an unwise and uninformed decision. I know I could find a paid research position in the area, but not sure if my current research mentor could take me on as a paid RA.  I would still continue to work with her on a part-time, unpaid basis in order to maintain that relationship and because I love the work that the lab is doing. 

I have made calls to other programs in the area to explain my situation.  Some have been sympathetic and have taken the time to explain what the process would look like and others, not so much. I think I'll make more calls this week though just to make sure I've done my due diligence.

Thanks again..!  I see you are a Fall 2018 applicant, so I wish you nothing but the best of luck on the interview trail!

[topsailpsych]

What would be the consequences in your current program if you only registered for one class for the next two semesters?  Or maybe you could talk with your advisor about taking a year off to do research?  That would allow you to not have to drop out of your program in case applications don't go your way, but it would keep you from continuing to going into too much more debt for the year.

[Sherrinford]

I'd reassess what your ultimate career goals are and then make a decision. If it's something that doesn't require going all the way up to a PhD, then you may not want to spend the extra few years on this. 

But if you are sure a clinical psychology doctorate is what you want, then I actually think it's not that difficult a decision to make. All the negative things you've listed are great reasons to leave. Especially the lack of funding part. It will be much better for you long-term if you took a few years extra but got accepted into a fully funded program. Additionally, I cannot imagine how difficult it would be to work part-time, conduct quality research, and do clinical work at the same time. 

If clinical psych is your passion, what's a few extra years spent working towards getting into a good program where you're happy to ultimately have a career you love for the rest of your life? That's just the way I think about it. Your situation definitely sucks, I do sympathize with you. 

Oh and one more thing, if you want to be competitive for internship or are remotely interested in a career involving research, it doesn't sound like you'll get good experience in the program you're currently in. So you'd be likely accruing debt, slaving yourself, not receiving proper training, and probably being weaker when it comes to post-grad. 

Do you have any old mentors/professors you can talk to? I would definitely involve other people you know in the process to get other opinions, especially from people who already have clinical psych doctorates. 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Sherrinford

[inneedofadvice2018]

8 hours ago, topsailpsych said:

What would be the consequences in your current program if you only registered for one class for the next two semesters?  Or maybe you could talk with your advisor about taking a year off to do research?  That would allow you to not have to drop out of your program in case applications don't go your way, but it would keep you from continuing to going into too much more debt for the year.

@topsailpsych, that's a good idea and one I haven't thought of!  I'm trying to think of every possible scenario given all of this advice and see what might be my best bet.  Thank you so much and best of luck on the interview trail this year!

[inneedofadvice2018]

8 hours ago, Sherrinford said:

I'd reassess what your ultimate career goals are and then make a decision. If it's something that doesn't require going all the way up to a PhD, then you may not want to spend the extra few years on this. 

But if you are sure a clinical psychology doctorate is what you want, then I actually think it's not that difficult a decision to make. All the negative things you've listed are great reasons to leave. Especially the lack of funding part. It will be much better for you long-term if you took a few years extra but got accepted into a fully funded program. Additionally, I cannot imagine how difficult it would be to work part-time, conduct quality research, and do clinical work at the same time. 

If clinical psych is your passion, what's a few extra years spent working towards getting into a good program where you're happy to ultimately have a career you love for the rest of your life? That's just the way I think about it. Your situation definitely sucks, I do sympathize with you. 

Oh and one more thing, if you want to be competitive for internship or are remotely interested in a career involving research, it doesn't sound like you'll get good experience in the program you're currently in. So you'd be likely accruing debt, slaving yourself, not receiving proper training, and probably being weaker when it comes to post-grad. 

Do you have any old mentors/professors you can talk to? I would definitely involve other people you know in the process to get other opinions, especially from people who already have clinical psych doctorates. 

@Sherrinford, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts.  One thing that I'm sure of is that I want a PhD in clinical psychology.  I've loved my externship experiences so far and when I am there, I feel that I'm in my element.  I also love to learn and think I would feel the same way about research if given the opportunity to work under someone's advisory who also shared a love for my topic of interest.   I agree that seeking advice from other clinical psych PhDs is going to be invaluable.  I have not spoken to anyone in my program about this, but have reached out to other schools in the area.  I think I need to cast a wider net in terms of people I consult with so that I can make a more informed decision.  Thanks again!

[Oshawott]

On 2/3/2018 at 2:59 PM, inneedofadvice2018 said:

I chose the program, because it was the only one I had gotten into.

I know people who only joined the program I'm in because it was the only one they got into. The program itself isn't bad, but they weren't flourishing because they literally didn't want to be there.

If you are able and don't mind starting over then why not? But I would worry how this could come off on your current supervisor especially since they didn't seem particularly happy with you finding external research opportunities. I'd also be worried how these other programs would perceive your application so unless these other professors are the ones taking you in, it might be a big risk. What's stopping you from just staying where you are and continuing to work and publish with your external collaborators?

[inneedofadvice2018]

On 2/5/2018 at 1:21 AM, Oshawott said:

I know people who only joined the program I'm in because it was the only one they got into. The program itself isn't bad, but they weren't flourishing because they literally didn't want to be there.

If you are able and don't mind starting over then why not? But I would worry how this could come off on your current supervisor especially since they didn't seem particularly happy with you finding external research opportunities. I'd also be worried how these other programs would perceive your application so unless these other professors are the ones taking you in, it might be a big risk. What's stopping you from just staying where you are and continuing to work and publish with your external collaborators?

Hi @Oshawott!  I'd say it's the $ and the fact that my current advisor won't let me use any existing datasets to write my thesis and/or dissertation are the two factors preventing me from staying where I am now and publishing with external collaborators   

[JoePianist]

1 hour ago, inneedofadvice2018 said:

Hi @Oshawott!  I'd say it's the $ and the fact that my current advisor won't let me use any existing datasets to write my thesis and/or dissertation are the two factors preventing me from staying where I am now and publishing with external collaborators   

@inneedofadvice2018 So I see you've received a lot of different advice on this forum and on StudentDoctorNetwork - have you gotten closer to deciding on a plan of action?

[inneedofadvice2018]

13 minutes ago, JoePianist said:

@inneedofadvice2018 So I see you've received a lot of different advice on this forum and on StudentDoctorNetwork - have you gotten closer to deciding on a plan of action?

@JoePianist,  thanks for following up.  To be honest, I wish I could say I had a more definitive plan of action, but as of now, I'm still very unsure as to which path to take.  Both forums, though, have provided me with a clearer sense of what each path might look like and advice on how I should navigate either scenario (staying or leaving).  It looks like there are still a lot of uncertainties regardless of the direction I end up going in.  I will be sure to keep you posted though.  I have a few more phone calls lined up today.  I am also planning on finishing out this semester regardless, so I have a little time (though not a whole lot) to come to a decision.  If you have any thoughts as someone already in a program and in the thick of it, I'd love to hear them!  Thanks again for taking the time to read this post and sharing your reactions to some of the guidance that's been shared already!

[rising_star]

I would finish out the semester but I wouldn't bother doing a third year in this program if you already know you want to leave. I would instead try to get a paid research position or just a paid job in general capitalizing on your experience and training. Good luck!

[Oshawott]

19 hours ago, inneedofadvice2018 said:

Hi @Oshawott!  I'd say it's the $ and the fact that my current advisor won't let me use any existing datasets to write my thesis and/or dissertation are the two factors preventing me from staying where I am now and publishing with external collaborators   

While I cautioned being wary, if your supervisor is actually obstructing your ability to complete your dissertation, then there's not much to lose by leaving because you aren't gaining much by staying.

[inneedofadvice2018]

Hello,

Not sure if anyone who read this initial post and commented will see this, but I just wanted to circle back to this thread to express my utmost gratitude to everyone who provided their insights and opinions to me during what has been a very, very trying year.  I am so thankful for this thread and for the GradCafe community as a whole.  After a lot of deliberating, I decided to reapply to programs and aimed for ones that were fully funded, seemed to have high-quality training, and had a mentor/lab that was a great fit.  It was not an easy decision, and I knew that in many ways, the easiest and perhaps shortest option would be to stay at my current program and try to make it work with the help of outside mentors and research opportunities.  Yet with the encouragement, support, and guidance of my external mentors/supervisors, family, and this forum, I felt that this was ultimately the right decision and that if I did not get interviews, I would be happy knowing that I at least tried my best to better my situation.  I was surprised and extremely grateful that programs did not discount me right away and instead invited me to take part in their interview process.  Although I was very nervous to have to explain my story, I felt much more prepared, driven, and confident this interview cycle.  In some sense, my current situation contributed to a nothing-to-lose and everything-to-gain mentality.  

I am so relieved to say that I will NOT be returning to my current program this fall and that I will be headed to a new program that I hope will give me a strong foundation upon which to build my career.  If any of you ever finds yourself in this situation and would like to PM me, please do not hesitate to do so.  I know that each situation is unique and that the decision that made sense for me may not make sense for others.  Once again, a huge thank you to all for weighing in and for taking the time to share your thoughts and experiences with me.