Anyone else not going to a top ranked grad program?

[bric]

Please let me know if this isn't the right forum for this!

I only got into my backup options. I still want to be a professor. Sigh. I guess I will actually choose a place that will make me happy (location + advisor fit) since I'll be attending it for the next 5-6 years. I do know that if I got into a top school I would've felt pressure to go there regardless of fit, so maybe this is a blessing in disguise. Anyone in a similar situation?

[N0rd]

I applied to a mix of top ranked programs and "safety schools" and got into one of each. I decided not to attend the top ranked program for a number of reasons. Primarily the funding I received at the other institution, but also I knew I would be much happier at that institution. It was much closer to friends and family, had a wonderful environment to study in, and I felt like I could see myself being friends with the current students I met. I know there is a great deal of pressure to attend the highest ranked program you can get into (I definitely felt that during my application/decision period) and it's hard when you see so many people on here attending top ranked programs.

On 3/15/2019 at 3:37 PM, bric said:

I guess I will actually choose a place that will make me happy (location + advisor fit) since I'll be attending it for the next 5-6 years. I do know that if I got into a top school I would've felt pressure to go there regardless of fit, so maybe this is a blessing in disguise. 

I think you've already addressed your own concern though. If you have the option to go to a school in a location you like, with a good advisor fit, and that will make you happy school ranking should not matter. The most important thing is that you're comfortable with your decision, no one wants to spend 5+ (very intense) years at a school they don't like.

Also, take a step back and look at what you've accomplished. You got into a grad program!!! More than one by the sound of it. This is an accomplishment very few people achieve and you should be proud! Not only do you now get to attend grad school but you also now have a choice in where you go.

[Ternwild]

99% of applicants aren't. 

[MarineBluePsy]

Top programs can still suck, just saying.

[Teaching Faculty Wannabe]

As long as you go somewhere that supports you academically, financially, healthy-wise, and professionally, I don't think the rank matters. I am also not going to a top-ranked school, but it was the top one on my list, so I am happy :).

Edited April 23, 2019 by IceCream & MatSci

[dr. t]

On 3/15/2019 at 4:37 PM, bric said:

I still want to be a professor.

If you want to be a professor, the perceived quality of your program (which we'll call rank) matters a great deal. I definitely understand the desire to go to a graduate school that you enjoy, but depending on the tier of school you're attending, achieving that end goal may be very difficult indeed.

[cephalexin]

On 4/24/2019 at 12:27 AM, telkanuru said:

If you want to be a professor, the perceived quality of your program (which we'll call rank) matters a great deal. I definitely understand the desire to go to a graduate school that you enjoy, but depending on the tier of school you're attending, achieving that end goal may be very difficult indeed.

While I agree with this sentiment, it also heavily depends on what kind of professor the OP wants to be. If he wants to become tenure track at a R01 driven or well known institution, yes absolutely. If he wants to primarily teach at an Undergrad only/mainly institution, then that “program rank” means a lot less.

 

edit- i’d also add that it also heavily depends on OP’s field of study.

Edited April 25, 2019 by cephalexin

[Teaching Faculty Wannabe]

14 minutes ago, cephalexin said:

While I agree with this sentiment, it also heavily depends on what kind of professor the OP wants to be. If he wants to become tenure track at a R01 driven or well known institution, yes absolutely. If he wants to primarily teach at an Undergrad only/mainly institution, then that “program rank” means a lot less.

 

edit- i’d also add that it also heavily depends on OP’s field of study.

Agreed.

Also, I don't think this should be a deterrent for the OP to not apply to professorships in the future. Networking is also really important in my mind. Ranking is important, but that's because we view it as important. I think the person's abilities of conducting research and/or teaching a class should be more important than the rank of the school they went to. The school could have a bad-ish rank, but that doesn't meant that the skills they learned in schools aren't good, especially in grad school because what you learn during that time is dependent on various things, such as your PI, conferences you attend, groups, organizations, and societies you join, how well you write research articles/grants/proposals, etc. Sometimes those things are dependent on the program and other things are dependent on the student and their PI. I believe ranking shouldn't be so heavily used in determining if you would be a good professor or not. Just my opinion.

Edited April 25, 2019 by IceCream & MatSci

[cephalexin]

3 minutes ago, IceCream & MatSci said:

Agreed.

Also, I don't think this should be a deterrent for the OP to not apply to professorships in the future. Networking is also really important in my mind. Ranking is important, but that's because we view it as important. I think the person's abilities of conducting research and/or teaching a class should be more important than the rank of the school they went to. The school could have a bad-ish rank, but that doesn't meant that the skills they learned in schools aren't good, especially in grad school because what you learn during that time is dependent on various things, such as your PI, conferences you attend, groups, organizations, and societies you join, how well you write research articles/grants/proposals, etc. Sometimes those things are dependent on the program and other things are dependent on the student and their PI. I believe ranking shouldn't be so heavily used in determining if you would be a good professor or not. Just my opinion.

Yeah I agree with this as well. My undergrad was a relatively small unknown college and my PI there said that grad students from our department had gotten academia positions; they just had to work extremely hard for them. 

[dr. t]

32 minutes ago, cephalexin said:

While I agree with this sentiment, it also heavily depends on what kind of professor the OP wants to be. If he wants to become tenure track at a R01 driven or well known institution, yes absolutely. If he wants to primarily teach at an Undergrad only/mainly institution, then that “program rank” means a lot less.

This may have been almost true - or at least you could plausibly argue it - 10 years ago; it is no longer. That middle tier of "undergrad" institution is rapidly collapsing, and what jobs do exist are being hotly contested by grads from Harvard, Yale, Chicago, and the like. I know plenty of Ivy graduates, and they are universally thrilled if they manage to land a permanent position at a branch campus or community college. That's the brutal reality of the current market.

16 minutes ago, IceCream & MatSci said:

Networking is also really important in my mind.

Sure. If you're at a prestigious institution, you get Important Scholars swinging by weekly to give a talk, because prestige and money go hand in hand. Guess who has the advantage there.

16 minutes ago, IceCream & MatSci said:

think the person's abilities of conducting research and/or teaching a class should be more important than the rank of the school they went to.

Me too, and mostly they are. It doesn't mean that they're unimportant, though, and school rank corresponds to many structural advantages such as (as I have already said) increased visibility to important scholars, extra funding, and lighter teaching loads, all of which enable higher-quality research.

10 minutes ago, cephalexin said:

I believe ranking shouldn't be so heavily used in determining if you would be a good professor or not. Just my opinion.

Alas that the world is the way it is, and not the way you want it to be.

10 minutes ago, cephalexin said:

Yeah I agree with this as well. My undergrad was a relatively small unknown college and my PI there said that grad students from our department had gotten academia positions; they just had to work extremely hard for them. 

Again, this may have been true when that professor was on the market however many decades ago, but this is absolute nonsense today. I can give you lists of absolutely brilliant friends from really good institutions who simply have been unlucky in the preferences of the hiring committee or have only had 3 (!!) job listings in their subfields, and are now adjuncting to make ends meet. Don't trust anyone who's gotten their job before 2014 when it comes to the job market.

If you go into academia thinking it will all work out if you try hard enough, or that you're smarter and are going to do it better than everyone else, you will end up broken, poor, and disappointed. Optimism in this regard is, quite frankly, self-delusion. That's not an opinion. That's simply an observation of reality.

[Teaching Faculty Wannabe]

6 minutes ago, telkanuru said:

This may have been almost true - or at least you could plausibly argue it - 10 years ago; it is no longer. That middle tier of "undergrad" institution is rapidly collapsing, and what jobs do exist are being hotly contested by grads from Harvard, Yale, Chicago, and the like. I know plenty of Ivy graduates, and they are universally thrilled if they manage to land a permanent position at a branch campus or community college. That's the brutal reality of the current market.

Sure. If you're at a prestigious institution, you get Important Scholars swinging by weekly to give a talk, because prestige and money go hand in hand. Guess who has the advantage there.

Me too, and mostly they are. It doesn't mean that they're unimportant, though, and school rank corresponds to many structural advantages such as (as I have already said) increased visibility to important scholars, extra funding, and lighter teaching loads, all of which enable higher-quality research.

Alas that the world is the way it is, and not the way you want it to be.

Again, this may have been true when that professor was on the market however many decades ago, but this is absolute nonsense today. I can give you lists of absolutely brilliant friends from really good institutions who simply have been unlucky in the preferences of the hiring committee or have only had 3 (!!) job listings in their subfields, and are now adjuncting to make ends meet. Don't trust anyone who's gotten their job before 2014 when it comes to the job market.

If you go into academia thinking it will all work out if you try hard enough, or that you're smarter and are going to do it better than everyone else, you will end up broken, poor, and disappointed. Optimism in this regard is, quite frankly, self-delusion. That's not an opinion. That's simply an observation of reality.

I see. I agree with all of your points. I know entering into academia is difficult, especially now. My mom are and her parents were university professors. I am sure it was easier for them back then to get jobs, but since my mom is still in that world today, I have gotten exposure to the current difficulties of academia. It is hard to even get the job, and then it is even hard to get tenured once you have gotten the job.

I know working hard won't get you into a professorship. I know my beliefs are not reflective of reality. I just wish reality weren't so based on prestige and who has the most money. Not everyone can afford prestige, and because of this, it can greatly prevent them from achieving their dreams of becoming a professor. I just wish the world wasn't the way it is. I know I can't personally change that. Maybe that can't ever change, which makes me sad.

[dr. t]

Just now, IceCream & MatSci said:

I see. I agree with all of your points. I know entering into academia is difficult, especially now. My mom are and her parents were university professors. I am sure it was easier for them back then to get jobs, but since my mom is still in that world today, I have gotten exposure to the current difficulties of academia. It is hard to even get the job, and then it is even hard to get tenured once you have gotten the job.

I know working hard won't get you into a professorship. I know my beliefs are not reflective of reality. I just wish reality weren't so based on prestige and who has the most money. Not everyone can afford prestige, and because of this, it can greatly prevent them from achieving their dreams of becoming a professor. I just wish the world wasn't the way it is. I know I can't personally change that. Maybe that can't ever change, which makes me sad.

Ok, but you realize that here you've given a real human advice on a life-altering decision based on that desire for an alternate reality? That's... not great.

[Teaching Faculty Wannabe]

15 minutes ago, telkanuru said:

Ok, but you realize that here you've given a real human advice on a life-altering decision based on that desire for an alternate reality? That's... not great. 

Yes...I feel bad about that.....I shouldn't have used my desire for a different reality to justify my reasoning/ horrible advice...It is wrong and I shouldn't have let my optimism blind me...

I apologize @bric for giving you and others unrealistic advice. Getting a professorship is not an easy thing to do at all, even if you get a degree from a top-ranked program. If you still feel like applying to professorships anyways, then do so because you never know, but the reality is that you, just like the rest of those who want to be professors, will have to think of things to do outside of being a professor when it comes to your career. Despite all of that, congrats on getting into grad school! You should be proud of yourself!

Edited April 25, 2019 by IceCream & MatSci

[Sigaba]

2 minutes ago, cephalexin said:

While I agree with this sentiment, it also heavily depends on what kind of professor the OP wants to be. If he wants to become tenure track at a R01 driven or well known institution, yes absolutely. If he wants to primarily teach at an Undergrad only/mainly institution, then that “program rank” means a lot less.

 

edit- i’d also add that it also heavily depends on OP’s field of study.

A way to address the question of the importance of program rank at a preferred job is to look at the academic backgrounds of people with similar jobs. 

[CherryBlossom_]

3 hours ago, Sigaba said:

A way to address the question of the importance of program rank at a preferred job is to look at the academic backgrounds of people with similar jobs. 

That's some good advice! Not only for academia but also for other jobs. Some reverse engineering! I see lots of prospective students/young professionals asking for advice and this kind of search is a good way for one to decide which program/job would be a good fit for you to get where you wanna be. 

As though as I agree with almost everything said in this thread, this question of prestige... it's a delicate one. We gotta be realistic but careful with our statements. It's a question that - if misinterpreted - might discourage people from applying/pursuing their dreams. One might think, for example, that someone from a different country shouldn't even bother to apply for top-5 programs in the US (yes, I've already heard that one, I'm from South America). However, I have about 5 or 6 classmates at Harvard, Columbia, Stanford, MIT and so on.. and yeah, they all carry a "south-american undergraduate degree".

Edited April 26, 2019 by CherryBlossom_

[dr. t]

11 hours ago, CherryBlossom_ said:

One might think, for example, that someone from a different country shouldn't even bother to apply for top-5 programs in the US (yes, I've already heard that one, I'm from South America).

Yes, that's patently ridiculous, but also the opposite of the discussion we're actually having and the advice actually given.

11 hours ago, CherryBlossom_ said:

It's a question that - if misinterpreted - might discourage people from applying/pursuing their dreams.

I want to be clear: I think this advice should, when properly interpreted, discourage people from applying and pursuing their dreams, albeit not in the way you specify. Coming out of undergraduate and into adulthood is the first time many people have to come face to face with the fact that the decisions they have made in the past have closed doors for them that they would rather still be open, that they, practically speaking, can no longer pursue their dream. And that's a hard reality to face. It's a reality many can't face.

When it comes to PhD education, low tier schools offer the illusion that the door has not in fact closed, and they exploit that illusion for their own benefit and cheap teaching labor. These schools are, without a doubt, aware of and deliberately exploiting the fact that they are selling students a dream they have little possibility of actually obtaining in order to teach their classes cheaply. They manipulate your love of learning for their bottom line.

Don't let them.