Wait another cycle or start now? [Clinical Psychology]

[hrj_BA]

Hello everyone!

 

I am a psychology BA graduate (class of 2019) from a mid-level UC thinking about applying to PhD programs. That being said, last cycle I applied to terminal MA programs and only got an interview and acceptance into one, which makes me feel like I should wait until I have substantially more research experience. I want to research the evolutionary adaptivity of psychopathy, and its relationship to cognitive deficits & heuristics/biases. Maybe throw in some functional brain imaging in there too.

 

GPA: ~3.4/ 3.6 psych GPA

GRE: 163 V, 155 Q, 4.5 AW

 

Here is a very general rundown of my research experience:

- 1 year as a full time paid RA. This sounds good on paper, but I haven't gained any new skills besides administering standardized assessments, which really doesn't seem all that important and I feel as though it makes me no more competitive that I was last time around.

- capstone research project (graduation requirement). Learned data analysis software and obtained significant results

- 6 months as an undergrad RA in a spatial navigation/attention lab. Learned how to EEG cap/apply electrodes, some experience with analysis of change of rate of physiological measures.

- 3 months as an undergrad RA in a molecular biology lab, learned biotechnology and DNA sequencing skills

 

Wondering if anyone has some input. Any and everything is appreciated (: 

[rainydaychai]

Hi there! It looks to me like you have a decent GPA and strong GRE scores. You're on the right track with the research experience you have thus far!

Are you currently at any of the RA positions you mentioned? I would hesitate to tell you that you that you should apply this year or wait another, as this is a decision only you can make, but I think your top priority no matter what path you choose should be to work at gaining more research experience, especially in a "leading" capacity (e.g., an independent project that you conceptualize with help from a mentor, first author conference presentations and potentially publications). Would you feel comfortable asking for a meeting at the full time paid RA position and asking if you could take on more duties in additional to standardized assessments? Specifically, you could ask your supervisor if they have any already-collected data around that you could analyze in a unique way, under their mentorship.

One option is to apply this year to throw your hat in the ring, per se, and understand that no matter the outcome, it is valuable practice for potential future cycles. However, this does involve a significant output of money for application fees, sending GRE scores, etc. and not everyone has the financial means to do so.

One last note - I see you're interested in psychopathy! I'm starting a clinical forensic PhD program this September and have focused some of my past research on psychopathy and other forensic topics. If you're interested in a clinical PhD with a forensic concentration, shoot me a message! I'm very familiar with the forensic programs in North America and may be able to recommend some good research fits.

[justacigar]

Just now, rainydaychai said:

One option is to apply this year to throw your hat in the ring, per se, and understand that no matter the outcome, it is valuable practice for potential future cycles. However, this does involve a significant output of money for application fees, sending GRE scores, etc. and not everyone has the financial means to do so.

I strongly agree with this piece of advice. It's really hard to know what the competitive pool of applicants will look like any year, but this year especially so with the pandemic and GRE scores being waived/not accepted. It's might be worth it to apply and refine your statements, your research interests, and potentially form relationships with graduate students/faculty in labs you are interested in. 

It's also only July - by the time you submit applications, you will have an additional 6 months of research experience. I would use that time wisely and like @rainydaychai said ask for additional responsibilities to expand your skill set.

Do you have any posters/pubs? This might also be a good time to get some publication experience by going to your supervisor with a pointed research question and ideas about what data to utilize. Most of the time, PIs are happy to get data published. 

[EileanDonan]

Hi there! I'd generally agree with the assessment that this is a pretty close call either way - you would definitely benefit from another year of experience (who wouldn't?), but you might have a chance with less competitive schools. You would have to really nail research fit and presentation of your skills/experiences. Shout out for the psychopathy interests by the way, that's my area of interest, too! I've done loads of research on programs, and I can say that the popular programs with explicit forensic specialties (Fordham, John Jay, Nebraska-Lincoln, etc) can afford to be picky about who they accept. Researching your programs of interest and looking at the backgrounds of current students is an excellent way of gauging if you're up to snuff.

In terms of your current position, I would definitely initiate a conversation with your PI (if you're comfortable enough) about taking on greater responsibilities. Authorship is worth a great deal, even just having a manuscript in preparation by application time is better than nothing.

[hrj_BA]

Hi everybody! 

Thank you so much for your help. You guys are so awesome and good to know there's others with psychopathy interests out there! Most people give me weird looks but I think it's something that needs to be looked into more. The programs I feel have a good research fit are UNLV, Rosalind Franklin, U. New Mexico (match/lower reach?) UW Madison, UCSD/SDSU, CU Boulder, and Northwestern for high reaches. I am also interested in John Jay, Fordham, and Emory. There is also UBC Okanagan and Brock University in Canada if anyone knows anything about PI Dr. Angela Book, but I'm unsure where I stand with the Canadian guidelines.  I would appreciate any advice on these programs. 

I am still at the job I've held for a year and have been trying to push for additional projects/responsibilities since December with nothing to show for it. My PI was very busy (I would say busier than most just because right now she's leading multiple colloquiums) and had me meet with a grad student, but the commitment didn't seem to add anything to what I'm currently doing and really didn't fit in with my schedule anyways. I also asked directly with my lab manager because our research group is involved with a couple of other institutions, but that was also a dead end. 

I really want to jump into authorship so I am looking into new positions, but COVID has definitely not helped with that.  No posters/conference presentations either, which is discouraging because it seems like everyone already has those. 

Do you guys think that a study coordinator position might have higher efficacy in getting me into a more independent/leading role? I've been referred to a hiring manager for a position that I think I have a really good shot with, but of course that doesn't really mean anything. That question is more for my ego than anything haha.

[Mickey26]

3 hours ago, hrj_BA said:

Hi everybody! 

You can PM me about Canadian progs  I'm Canadian though so may not be able to help with international student stuffs

If you're interested in forensics, check out Ryerson University in Canada. Lots of faculty members doing forensic research but are clinical profs. Good luck!

Yes, if you're a study coordinator, it demonstrates you have a variety of skill (collaboration, communication, time management, management of ppl), and sets you up nicely for a more independent role, etc.

[justacigar]

3 hours ago, hrj_BA said:

Hi everybody! 

Thank you so much for your help. You guys are so awesome and good to know there's others with psychopathy interests out there! Most people give me weird looks but I think it's something that needs to be looked into more. The programs I feel have a good research fit are UNLV, Rosalind Franklin, U. New Mexico (match/lower reach?) UW Madison, UCSD/SDSU, CU Boulder, and Northwestern for high reaches. I am also interested in John Jay, Fordham, and Emory. There is also UBC Okanagan and Brock University in Canada if anyone knows anything about PI Dr. Angela Book, but I'm unsure where I stand with the Canadian guidelines.  I would appreciate any advice on these programs. 

I am still at the job I've held for a year and have been trying to push for additional projects/responsibilities since December with nothing to show for it. My PI was very busy (I would say busier than most just because right now she's leading multiple colloquiums) and had me meet with a grad student, but the commitment didn't seem to add anything to what I'm currently doing and really didn't fit in with my schedule anyways. I also asked directly with my lab manager because our research group is involved with a couple of other institutions, but that was also a dead end. 

I really want to jump into authorship so I am looking into new positions, but COVID has definitely not helped with that.  No posters/conference presentations either, which is discouraging because it seems like everyone already has those. 

Do you guys think that a study coordinator position might have higher efficacy in getting me into a more independent/leading role? I've been referred to a hiring manager for a position that I think I have a really good shot with, but of course that doesn't really mean anything. That question is more for my ego than anything haha.

Study coordinator is definitely great title-wise and responsibility-wise, but you don't necessarily need the title to have independence or leadership. For example, I'm a clinical research assistant, but am "managing/leading" three sub-projects on the team. So, I would say it's not always about the title, it's more about the amount of different skills you are able to learn and practice during your time on the team. All that to say, even if you don't get that position there may be RA positions more suited to the skill set you are hoping to acquire! 

Not to be super discouraging, but programs like UCSD/SDSU, CU Boulder, and Northwestern are more than high reaches if you have no publication history. Those are some of the most competitive programs. It's difficult to say, because admission is based on so many different factors, but to combat low or no pubs/posters I would think you'd need very high GRE/GPA and a ton of research experience. I think I have a different view than most on applying to high reach schools, because to me it seems like a waste of money. I'm just a realist and aware that my qualifications aren't up to snuff for high ranked programs. I made the mistake of applying to high reaches my first round (UW, UO) and it just felt like I threw $200 away, lol

[hrj_BA]

49 minutes ago, Mickey26 said:

.

Thank you for the suggestion! Always on the look for new potential PIs. Don’t be surprised if I take you up on your offer!

13 minutes ago, justacigar said:

 

Not to be super discouraging, but programs like UCSD/SDSU, CU Boulder, and Northwestern are more than high reaches if you have no publication history. Those are some of the most competitive programs. It's difficult to say, because admission is based on so many different factors, but to combat low or no pubs/posters I would think you'd need very high GRE/GPA and a ton of research experience. 

Yes with the current climate I’m considering just even volunteering with a lab once human subjects research opens back up (in person).

I COMPLETELY 100% agree with your standpoint, which is why I am heavily leaning towards not applying this cycle or even the next, even for “lower” programs. I know PhD admissions is never for sure but I’d be shooting myself in the foot if I applied to a top program right now. Those are programs I’d apply to if I felt as though I could gain significant experience within the next few (3?) years. I’m happy with myself that I am learning to taking it slow and waiting for my time to shine, even though sometimes I’m stricken with inferiority that some classmates are getting into professional/graduate programs already. 
 

So happy that people are so willing to help (: it is so nice to hear positivity 

[rainydaychai]

6 hours ago, hrj_BA said:

Thank you so much for your help. You guys are so awesome and good to know there's others with psychopathy interests out there! Most people give me weird looks but I think it's something that needs to be looked into more. The programs I feel have a good research fit are UNLV, Rosalind Franklin, U. New Mexico (match/lower reach?) UW Madison, UCSD/SDSU, CU Boulder, and Northwestern for high reaches. I am also interested in John Jay, Fordham, and Emory. There is also UBC Okanagan and Brock University in Canada if anyone knows anything about PI Dr. Angela Book, but I'm unsure where I stand with the Canadian guidelines.  I would appreciate any advice on these programs. 

Adding to what @Mickey26 said, Simon Fraser University in Canada (where I'm starting my clinical PhD program this fall) is also superb for clinical forensics and especially psychopathy. We have a formal forensic track and my undergraduate honours supervisor there was supervised himself by Dr. Robert Hare, worked on the creation of the original PCL, and created the PCL:SV for his dissertation! Feel free to message me if you'd like more info on that, or Canadian programs in general.  

As for the study coordinator question, it's a tricky one. It would be fabulous if you got the position and it turned out to be all you hoped for! Fingers crossed for you. However, what @justacigar said about being able to take on similar duties without the formal title is also true, and conversely, in my own experience, I was promised a "study coordinator" role in my last position but was only given the simplest coordination tasks no matter how hard I fought for them. I believe it's very supervisor-dependent!