Grad school

[Aristos]

I am considering grad school in either Political Theory or IR. If I go with PT, I am afraid that I will not find jobs in the future. Since some universities am applying have Straussian depts. Should I worry about that?. Any advice? the universities are Yale, Boston C, Duke, Harvard, Chicago and others
P.S I cannot entirely agree with ALL of Strauss's thoughts. Nonetheless, I hold him high as a scholar of HPT.

 

[Artifex_Archer]

No, you shouldn't worry about that.

First: More people should study Strauss for a number of reasons, very few of which have anything at all to do with whether one should 'agree' with him or not. Strauss is a very valuable resource for learning how to interrogate texts—and I use that term in the most holistic sense possible—in new ways. He wrote critically about the necessary tension between the philosopher and society, which is certainly worth reflection in an age where so many people believe they lead 'philosophic' lives—just as long as their 'philosophizing' remains in normative lockstep with the rest of society/the academy.

Second: The schools you list—including Chicago—don't have the 'Straussian departments' that they may once have had. I was at Chicago a couple years back, and while there were a handful of OG Strauss students and Strauss-based courses, not even the Committee on Social Thought was really 'Straussian' as a whole. 

Third, and related to the second point: The OG Strauss students I mentioned above, those who studied with him personally, are invaluable resources for Strauss myth-busting. Just as Karl Marx once quipped that he wasn't a Marxist [which may or may not be apocryphal, but it makes for a good anecdote], Leo Strauss, the man, seems to bear only a faint ideological resemblance to today's 'Straussians.' IMHO, Strauss, and his works, are meant to be argued about—not taken as having ONE true, fundamental meaning that is utterly obscured by a surface-level analysis of the text. [Strauss' point isn't that the surface-level text is there to trick you; it's that meaning is layered. Nor, by comprehending a deeper 'layer' of text, are the previous layers' meanings negated—in fact, the deeper you go, the more you realize the unity between each of those layers.] 

That last bit was a digression, and I apologize—Straussians, anti-Straussians, and Strauss the man himself all frustrate me equally in turn. But the point is, you shouldn't run from these departments and schools—they're not nearly as 'Straussian' as they once had a reputation for being; and even if they were, I haven't heard of many Harvard and Yale grads losing out on jobs because they went to Harvard or Yale. 

[PoliSciGuy00]

As someone who studied at a college with lots of Straussians, I'd agree with everything Artifex_Archer said.  Don't worry too much about this.  Look for people that fit with your interests and apply there.    

[polsciguy88]

You are unlikely to find a job regardless of what subfield you choose.

[Theory007]

5 hours ago, polsciguy88 said:

You are unlikely to find a job regardless of what subfield you choose.

Have you ever made a positive contribution to this forum or has it always been like this?

[polsciguy88]

1 hour ago, Theory007 said:

Have you ever made a positive contribution to this forum or has it always been like this?

Depends on what you (subjectively) consider a 'positive contribution.' The academic market is collapsing. The bubble is bursting. Blowing smoke up people's asses, in my opinion, is not a positive contribution.

No one should be applying to graduate programs in political science right now. 

[terefere]

It certainly is true that the academic job market in the US is a tough as never before and most people do not appreciate the extent this is true until they near the end of their PhD programs and are on the job market. I think YOU SHOULD think about this carefully when applying. But there are a few 'buts':

1. There still are academic jobs in the US, just less (and more PhDs competing for them). While this means that competition is higher and so are expectations, you can still get hired. You just need to have realistic expectations - not everyone will get an R1 job (not that everyone wants one!) and you may need to first do a postdoc or two after you graduate.

2. Check out the latest APSA Graduate Placement Report. 26% get TT jobs straight out of PhD. 85% get jobs. 15% are unplaced. These numbers are for all PhD granting institutions. They vary between universities. With some exceptions, your best bet on getting a job is to go to the best department possible. The jobs prospects of somebody from a top 10 department are vastly different than for somebody from much lower ranked schools. It's not just the number of jobs but also the type of jobs that will be available to you that differs.  

3. There are still jobs in Europe and an increasing number of good jobs in Asia. Many are willing to take these! In fact, this may sometimes be the preferred option for non-US citizens. 

4. Be prepared from the start that you may need to consider non-academic jobs. Many upper year PhD students will actually prefer those, even if they came into their program with academic aspirations. Make sure you invest in skills that are useful both in the academic and non-academic paths. This will be both helpful in actually getting a good non-academic job and also will help reduce the stress and pressure of the academic job market, knowing that you do have an outside option. 

 

 

[smug-face]

12 hours ago, polsciguy88 said:

Depends on what you (subjectively) consider a 'positive contribution.' The academic market is collapsing. The bubble is bursting. Blowing smoke up people's asses, in my opinion, is not a positive contribution.

No one should be applying to graduate programs in political science right now. 

What "bubble"? Are there not going to be people studying at university in the future? Are none of those people going to be studying political science? What exactly will bring about the collapse of the market? I'm genuinely curious.

[polsciguy88]

1 hour ago, smug-face said:

What "bubble"? Are there not going to be people studying at university in the future? Are none of those people going to be studying political science? What exactly will bring about the collapse of the market? I'm genuinely curious.

https://pwb02mw.press.jhu.edu/title/demographics-and-demand-higher-education

In short: Demographic changes do not favor the US university system *writ large.* Much of the university system was based on a model of growth, but economic growth in the current US economic system is not robust. Couple this with an aging population, there simply is not enough college-aged students for demand to remain even constant, which will drive much of the lower R2s and LACs out of business. 

Furthermore, because the US federal government guarantees a large number of student loans, universities have continually increased tuition as rates far higher than inflation. But these tuition dollars are NOT going to faculty, administration bureaucracies are essentially eating into university revenues at dangerous rates. Not sustainable.

The reckoning was already on the horizon, coronavirus has just pushed it far quicker and far deeper than predicted.

The job market for political science phds has contracted approximately 70% this year. This is not unusual, this is happening across most disciplines:

https://www.sciencemag.org/careers/2020/10/amid-pandemic-us-faculty-job-openings-plummet

This is obviously an atypical year...HOWEVER, it is incredibly unlikely that there will be a strong rebound for the reasons I already stated. Rather, you should expect the system to bottom-out because of online learning across many universities and colleges, there has been a lot of deferrals and withdrawals of students, placing an enormous amount of financial pressure on already hurting colleges and universities.

It's not sustainable. Don't get a PhD. Do something else with your life. Start a business, whatever. Just don't get a PhD.

The calculus used to be: if you can get into a top program and be a star (somewhat in your control), you can get a job. Now it's looking like nearly everyone has bleak prospects for getting a job (at all).

[uncle_socks]

While I do think that the above poster is a little annoying in hijacking seemingly random chance me threads with alarmist takes, I want to maybe step into their defense at least a little bit and reconcile my take with some other takes that are prominent in this forum. Hopefully it's not too garbled. What they are right about is that job prospects are very asymmetric and that the job market is...not good to say the least. My philosophy is very game theoretic, that you ought to do whatever is going put you in the best position in the future, from both a monetary and career trajectory standpoint. I gave up a job where I probably would've been able to break six figures by 26, but am in a PhD program because every reasonable future possible option will put me in an equivalent or better position, with respect to work satisfaction and salary. I want to be a professor, but am getting teched up so that if that doesn't work out, I can do data science work in industry.  Maybe my thoughts are extremist, but these were some things I really thought about when trying to figure out whether grad school is worth it: 

1. Professorship, with a degree from anywhere, at any school, can never be guaranteed. We all know that the US job market is bad, but it's not like most of us can go to Canada, Europe, South America, or East Asia and get hired just by virtue of an American degree. The Canadian market is just as bad if not worse than the American market. European schools especially are very uh incestual and don't care for most American PhDs, especially if we don't have connections. No idea about the South American market, but I presume that your application is DOA if you aren't fluent in the native language. East Asian schools, while hiring individuals from American programs, are largely hiring back people from that particular country. The community colleges and unprestigious regional schools are the ones that each year lean heavier and heavier on adjuncts. R1 positions are relatively "safe" but even big state schools have adjuncts, grad students, and non-TT lecturers teaching many courses. If you have the sole intention of being a professor, even if you're willing to work literally anywhere, you need to change that mindset and be open to industry. 
   1. In my field, there have been notable recent students from CHYMPS programs, with solo APSRs and AJPS publications and prestigious postdocs, who earnestly tried on the job market and got nothing. They did everything "right." They have industry jobs now, and that's fine -- they're not starving or anything, but anyone who thinks that they're for sure 100% going to get some kind of TT academic job is lying to themselves. Some people will look at placement numbers and see that program X (especially when X is middle-range program) has ya know 80%+ in industry jobs and think that "ah people just realize that they don't want to be professors" but that's really not true for a lot of them. They take these industry jobs because their probability of getting a TT job is outrageously low, coupled with the fact that whatever TT jobs they can get will pay poorly relative to [think tank/industry]. The appeal of industry is big, especially for PhDs who can get these tech/MBB jobs where the starting salary is $150k+, but even then, most who end up getting the PhD would prefer to teach if professorships paid just as well (they just don't, and once you're 30 you realize there's more to life than examining the relationship between vote choice and political party, like affording kids and stuff). 
2. You shouldn't go to a school unless most/all of your realistic preferred outcomes are only attainable to you if you go to that school. Obviously, yes, you need the PhD to be a professor. If you are admitted to a quant heavy top school, then if you want to work at Facebook doing experiments, then yeah a PhD is absolutely necessary. If you don't have connections and come from a no-name generic undergrad and get into a fancy-name school and want to get into MBB consulting, then yeah the PhD or mastering out from a PhD program is going to open that door for you as well. If you're going to take a lot of metrics/stats/CS classes on the side and go into data science then again a PhD is cool. If your PhD work isn't getting you these practical skills or fancy school names, and you don't have any backup-to-professorship options that require a PhD or at least an MA, then you really need to think long and hard about whether it's worth 5-7 years of your life. I guess this condenses down to the idea that going to a top program is doubly important if you want a job that you couldn't have just gotten out of undergrad or with a generic MPA. 

[PoliSciGuy00]

I guess one other thing to consider here is whether or not you find some modicum of joy, satisfaction, or meaning from being in a doctoral program.  In other words, might it be intrinsically worthwhile?  I for one am thankful to be a doctoral program right now.  It's stressful, to be sure, but I appreciate the opportunities I have here that I almost certainly would not have in the private or public sector, namely a guaranteed income and health insurance for five years to take classes that interest me, write (and try to publish) about things I am passionate about, develop in-demand and non in-demand skills, be in a city and area that I really like, and be around really smart people all day that care about my success.  I know a lot of people have strong feelings about this, but I just wanted to throw my two cents in.  Like most other people on this forum, there's definitely an opportunity cost for me.  I could be making more money, possibly a lot more, in the private sector.  But for now, I'm happy where I am.