Let's talk about program rankings....

[donaldduckheim]

Hi friends! I'm probably getting too caught up now in the rankings game but am hoping other people are interested in discussing the topic as well.. 

So let's say I got into a soc program ranked between 10-20 on US news and then got into an ivy like Cornell or Yale. If both seemed like good fits for my interests and aspirations, would one be a better choice than the other regarding name recognition/status, etc? Would it matter? 

What about if I got into two programs ranked between 10-20. Would it matter really which one I picked if the fit was good? 

I'm not 100% sure what I would like to do post-graduation, but I would like to keep the option of potentially working at an R01 school open. Would I have a decent chance going to a 10-20 school or should I really try to go for a top 10 spot? 

I don't know if any of this matters at all in the long run, so I would appreciate any insight anyone has  

 

 

 

[lkaitlyn]

The rankings are so out of date at this point that honestly it's a bit hard to know what is where. Things have shifted in the last 5 years, but U.S. News hasn't updated things since 2017 (based on a 2016 survey). Look at placement. That's a better indication of what's going on than what was happening in U.S. News five years ago. And don't focus on Ivy vs. not Ivy — what sports league a school is in has nothing to do with placement, and you'll find that at least half a dozen public schools (if not more) place better than Yale (and Cornell).

[passere]

This is an analysis of which programs have the most top academic placements, as of three years ago. You can see that there is an advantage to going to an Ivy League or similar, if your program isn’t in the top-10 and you want to be a professor at a top program. 
 

That said, this analysis was of professors at top programs, not all R1 schools. lkaitlyn’s suggestion is the best: look at the recent placements of schools you’re comparing. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by passere

[applicant2016]

Symbolically, there are benefits to jointing Ivy departments that aren’t so highly ranked. When you meet someone and they ask “Where are you getting your PhD?” Answering with “Cornell” or “Yale” will be impressive to them because it’s a school they’ve heard of and it carries Ivy League prestige. 

More importantly, though, an institution’s resources matter. The graduate stipends at Cornell and Yale are usually competitive. Yes, you ideally want to think long term about how the program might lead to earnings potential down the road. But in the here and now you still have bills to pay. Also, pay attention to health insurance plans. God forbid you actually need to use it. But if you do, you don’t want to be financially ruined. (File that under things I might never have thought about until a global pandemic struck).

Edited February 19, 2021 by applicant2016

[lkaitlyn]

2 hours ago, applicant2016 said:

Symbolically, there are benefits to jointing Ivy departments that aren’t so highly ranked. When you meet someone and they ask “Where are you getting your PhD?” Answering with “Cornell” or “Yale” will be impressive to them because it’s a school they’ve heard of and it carries Ivy League prestige. 

More importantly, though, an institution’s resources matter. The graduate stipends at Cornell and Yale are usually competitive. Yes, you ideally want to think long term about how the program might lead to earnings potential down the road. But in the here and now you still have bills to pay. Also, pay attention to health insurance plans. God forbid you actually need to use it. But if you do, you don’t want to be financially ruined. (File that under things I might never have thought about until a global pandemic struck).

No offense, but if you're going to get a PhD so people think you sound "impressive" because of the prestige of your school, there's a much deeper issue there.

Yes, though, the stipends are cushy there. But if your goal is R1 placement, forgo the cushy stipend to go somewhere livable but higher ranked than Yale.

Edited February 19, 2021 by lkaitlyn

[applicant2016]

8 minutes ago, lkaitlyn said:

No offense, but if you're going to get a PhD so people think you sound "impressive" because of the prestige of your school, there's a much deeper issue there.

Yes, though, the stipends are cushy there. But if your goal is R1 placement, forgo the cushy stipend to go somewhere livable but higher ranked than Yale.

Thanks for the snarky response. I would urge you to take a look at Bourdieu’s works, particularly Distinction if you think that status doesn’t matter. You’re also straw-manning me. I ever said that the only (or even most important)  goal of a PhD is to impress people.  I also stated that thinking about long term placement matters but so too does the here and now, especially for those of us who don’t come from wealthy families.

Edited February 19, 2021 by applicant2016

[donaldduckheim]

Thank you all SO much for your insight/advice... The placement stats really help, and it's good to know I should focus on those more than ranking. I will definitely take a look at health insurance too!! 

There are so many factors to consider when making a decision, it's just overwhelming... ? How did ya'll do it?? In the end, I just want to feel comfortable that the place I end up at has some good resources available for me to do the research I want to do. Might not even need to be an R01, but it's nice to know that could potentially still be in the picture. 

 

 

 

 

 

[lkaitlyn]

On 2/19/2021 at 11:59 AM, applicant2016 said:

Thanks for the snarky response. I would urge you to take a look at Bourdieu’s works, particularly Distinction if you think that status doesn’t matter. You’re also straw-manning me. I ever said that the only (or even most important)  goal of a PhD is to impress people.  I also stated that thinking about long term placement matters but so too does the here and now, especially for those of us who don’t come from wealthy families.

The here and now absolutely matters. One should never go to a PhD program that they cannot afford. But whether or not the name of your school impresses random people you meet outside of the field you're being hired in shouldn't even be on the radar.

[applicant2016]

"shouldn't" and "aren't" are two different types of statements. I'd be the first to argue that the prestige of the institution shouldn't matter. But would anyone sincerely argue that it doesn't?

1 hour ago, lkaitlyn said:

The here and now absolutely matters. One should never go to a PhD program that they cannot afford. But whether or not the name of your school impresses random people you meet outside of the field you're being hired in shouldn't even be on the radar.

 

[lkaitlyn]

16 hours ago, applicant2016 said:

"shouldn't" and "aren't" are two different types of statements. I'd be the first to argue that the prestige of the institution shouldn't matter. But would anyone sincerely argue that it doesn't?

 

Prestige re: name brand to those not in your field doesn't matter. Prestige in terms of the program ranking itself does.

[applicant2016]

8 hours ago, lkaitlyn said:

Prestige re: name brand to those not in your field doesn't matter. Prestige in terms of the program ranking itself does.

Have you never read about symbolic interactionism? The Matthew Effect? Do you even sociology, bro?

[SocAndStuff]

2 hours ago, applicant2016 said:

Have you never read about symbolic interactionism? The Matthew Effect? Do you even sociology, bro?

There's something really rich about this being directed at a current PhD student (who has also been extremely helpful and insightful on this forum) in a phenomenal soc program, and all of this spiciness coming from someone who is presumably still trying to get into a PhD program (and maybe has been since 2016).
 

[whooshboosh]

20 hours ago, lkaitlyn said:

Prestige re: name brand to those not in your field doesn't matter. Prestige in terms of the program ranking itself does.

Exactly this. Yale has good name to those outside the field, but there are many Publics with stronger programs, and people in the field (aka the people who matter to your career) know it. 

Back to your original question: Cornell is ranked 17 and Yale 22 (granted the outdated rankings but its what we have). If you get into Michigan or UNC, for example, you should take those over a school like Cornell or Yale. Generally, you should use rankings (after the top ten or so) as a guide. The rankings change every time they update it, but not by that much. At this point, go by fit. For your career goals, R1 is too broad a category to mean much. If you're talking about the big names, you'll want to shoot high, but even second tier will work. 

I can't speak to the long run, but I'll share my advice: Go wherever you'll be able to work the best. Do you value having student colleagues, or a faculty mentor who is top-notch, or centers and institutes for your work, or a friendly department, or location close to family, or even money (you won't be happy and work well if you can't eat). 

[glee1111]

22 minutes ago, whooshboosh said:

Exactly this. Yale has good name to those outside the field, but there are many Publics with stronger programs, and people in the field (aka the people who matter to your career) know it. 

Back to your original question: Cornell is ranked 17 and Yale 22 (granted the outdated rankings but its what we have). If you get into Michigan or UNC, for example, you should take those over a school like Cornell or Yale. Generally, you should use rankings (after the top ten or so) as a guide. The rankings change every time they update it, but not by that much. At this point, go by fit. For your career goals, R1 is too broad a category to mean much. If you're talking about the big names, you'll want to shoot high, but even second tier will work. 

I can't speak to the long run, but I'll share my advice: Go wherever you'll be able to work the best. Do you value having student colleagues, or a faculty mentor who is top-notch, or centers and institutes for your work, or a friendly department, or location close to family, or even money (you won't be happy and work well if you can't eat). 

I think there could be a case to be made to go to Cornell over UNC, if you look at these rankings these 2020: http://www.shanghairanking.com/Shanghairanking-Subject-Rankings/sociology.html (these rankings have also been featured in blogs by Sociologists at Indiana University https://orgtheory.wordpress.com/2019/07/15/new-sociology-rankings-and-its-kind-of-interesting/). Cornell was ranked 6th over UNC.

[whooshboosh]

1 minute ago, glee1111 said:

I think there could be a case to be made to go to Cornell over UNC, if you look at these rankings these 2020: http://www.shanghairanking.com/Shanghairanking-Subject-Rankings/sociology.html (these rankings have also been featured in blogs by Sociologists at Indiana University https://orgtheory.wordpress.com/2019/07/15/new-sociology-rankings-and-its-kind-of-interesting/). Cornell was ranked 6th over UNC.

Ah, I hadn't seen these. Looking at their methods, it looks like they mainly measure research output and faculty awards. US News's rankings are based on rankings done by faculty members at other departments. Of course, this is subject to a great deal of bias and certainly rewards already-strong departments, but I would argue that US News's are more important, simply because it is this perception of prestige that people care about when giving names. (Of course, this prestige is less variable from time to time, so maybe Shanghai's is a good predictor of future prestige.)

 

Of course, fit could also be a great reason to choose Cornell over UNC. M Macy at Cornell is the leader (at least historically) in computational sociology, so he's definitely a pull there if that is your interest. They also recently (or are in the process of) merging with their development sociology program, so that's another draw. All this to say, rankings are fickle - go where you think you'll be most productive. 

[donaldduckheim]

What do ya'll think when it comes to Minnesota vs. Indiana? Seems like both do similarly well in placement (Minnesota might be slightly better?) but the rankings are all over place. I'd be getting interdisciplinary training in population health at UMN but both seem like great options and fits. At this point does it just depend on which one I end up liking better? 

Edited February 24, 2021 by donaldduckheim

[applicant2016]

On 2/22/2021 at 12:06 AM, SocAndStuff said:

There's something really rich about this being directed at a current PhD student (who has also been extremely helpful and insightful on this forum) in a phenomenal soc program, and all of this spiciness coming from someone who is presumably still trying to get into a PhD program (and maybe has been since 2016).
 

You don't know anything about my situation because I haven't shared any info. But nice ad hominem attack. I never said prestige was the ONLY thing that mattered, or even the top priority. But it does matter and it's a point that is often neglected.  

Institutional prestige matters in the sense that we form our identities not in a vacuum but rather based on the feedback we get from others through interactions—This is introductory sociology: looking glass self/double consciousness.  

If you meet someone on an airplane, they're almost guaranteed to have heard of Yale and will likely be impressed that you're earning a PhD there. Maybe this makes you feel good about yourself. Graduate school can completely deflate one's self esteem. Moments like the one I described may help you power through. This status might matter more for folks who are from less privileged backgrounds. They get to wake up each day remembering that their determination got them a spot in a revered institution. But such prestige is not the only thing that matters.  

In fact, I would argue the stipend/benefits matter far more. A top 10 program does fuck all if you burn yourself out from working three jobs because your stipend was not enough to live on or god forbid you get sick. 

Edited February 25, 2021 by applicant2016

[lkaitlyn]

On 2/24/2021 at 8:14 PM, applicant2016 said:

You don't know anything about my situation because I haven't shared any info. But nice ad hominem attack. I never said prestige was the ONLY thing that mattered, or even the top priority. But it does matter and it's a point that is often neglected.  

Institutional prestige matters in the sense that we form our identities not in a vacuum but rather based on the feedback we get from others through interactions—This is introductory sociology: looking glass self/double consciousness.  

If you meet someone on an airplane, they're almost guaranteed to have heard of Yale and will likely be impressed that you're earning a PhD there. Maybe this makes you feel good about yourself. Graduate school can completely deflate one's self esteem. Moments like the one I described may help you power through. This status might matter more for folks who are from less privileged backgrounds. They get to wake up each day remembering that their determination got them a spot in a revered institution. But such prestige is not the only thing that matters.  

In fact, I would argue the stipend/benefits matter far more. A top 10 program does fuck all if you burn yourself out from working three jobs because your stipend was not enough to live on or god forbid you get sick. 

My point is/was that your career will be helped in the long run if you don't go to Yale just because it's Yale, and instead focus on what program will set you up to land a job. It's also super important to find ways other than school prestige to boost your self-esteem. Tying it to the fact that you went to an Ivy won't sustain you — trust me, I've been there. You can do whatever you want, but I hope you at least consider this.

Edited March 4, 2021 by lkaitlyn