PhD: UChicago Stat vs Yale Stat

[stat_guy]

Hi everyone, I'm trying to decide between UChicago and Yale, both are PhD in Statistics. I'd like to hear any suggestion from people who have experiences with or know well about the programs.

I want to do ML and would like a combination of theoretical and applied training. At both schools there're faculty members who match my interests very well. And upon graduation I'm a bit leaning towards industry; slightly perfer Quant over tech, this may change though.

Here are some pros and cons to me from talking with their current students and faculty in both programs.

Yale:

Pros

1. Very solid theoretical training.
2. Had a pleasant conversation with my POIs and they agreed to co-advise me, one theoretical and one applied.
3. The program is expanding rapidly. They've doubled their faculty size over the past three years.
4. Good atmosphere. It's small though, people seem like to be very well connected. And a better work-life balance.

Cons

1. Historically Yale Stat is not as prestigous as UChicago Stat (lower US News ranking), though I believe this would change in the coming years as Yale is actively investing their Stat department. Not sure how this would affect job searching.
2. Location. I actually don't have preference about living places, but Chicago is a real better place to get a Quant job.
3. Less alumni from this program.

UChicago:

Pros

1. Highly ranked for its statistics program. Right behind Stanford and Berkeley, same as Harvard, according to US News 2018.
2. Larger department thus more possibilities to try out. Though I currently have set research interests and have a great chat with my POI over there, it's very likely for people to change their interests. If so I would have more choices at Chicago than at Yale.
3. Excellent placement in Quant companies like Two Sigma, Citadel, etc. Might get more alumni connections during job searching.
4. Personally feel like UChicago's location would make me more marketable for a Quant job, not sure how important the location is for a PhD graduate though. Please corrent me if wrong.

Cons

1. From chatting with couple current students, they seem to have more peer pressure at Chicago than those at Yale. Yale's students would come out as more well-rounded. Though I know this factor shouldn't be given a high priority for a PhD program, I certainly prefer a less pressured vibe if the outcomes of the two programs are comparable.
2. Chicago's brand recognition may not be as good as Yale. Though I think this is not that much important for a PhD, but can anyone comment on this?

 

Overall speaking, at both schools I have interested professors who have agreed to take me, so I wouldn't be worried about advisors - all very good, one big name, one rising star. My primary concerns are on the outcome of the two programs and their working culture.

Edited March 10, 2021 by kkk123117

[Stat Assistant Professor]

Congrats on your outstanding acceptances! IMO, Yale is a very good program with some excellent professor (e.g. John Lafferty and Harrison Zhou) who are very renowned and well-known in the field of statistics. Yale's academic placements are also fairly impressive -- they've placed PhD alumni at UC Berkeley, University of Chicago, UPenn Wharton, and Princeton ORFE to name a few. This is an excellent placement record, which leads me to believe that many top schools view the Yale S&DS program favorably. If you are leaning towards industry, then I think that either Chicago or Yale would be fine. It seems like you have especially good vibes from Yale though, so I would definitely not think it's insane to pick Yale over a "higher ranked" school.

I am not really sure how their USNWR rank was determined but I truly believe that Yale is under-ranked relative to the department's strength (in terms of its faculty and student outcomes). Rankings are based on popular perceptions (surveys sent out to academic statisticians), which might be slow to change. I think the rankings are still fairly good for the most part, but there are a few that I think are over-ranked or under-ranked relative to their current strength -- Yale is one of those (I believe it's under-ranked).

Edited March 10, 2021 by Stat Assistant Professor

[trynagetby]

@Stat Assistant Professor Just out of curiosity what programs do you think are currently over-ranked?

 

[Nothalfgood]

7 hours ago, kkk123117 said:

they seem to have more peer pressure at Chicago than those at Yale. Yale's students would come out as more well-rounded.

Hi @kkk123117! Unfortunately I don't really have any useful advice since I'm in a similar situation you are; I'm strongly considering UChicago at this point too. Would you mind expanding on this point (quoted above)? I have gotten the impression that students in the UChicago stat department are motivated to work independently, but I'd like to know what you mean by their having more peer pressure.

[stat_guy]

8 minutes ago, Nothalfgood said:

Hi @kkk123117! Unfortunately I don't really have any useful advice since I'm in a similar situation you are; I'm strongly considering UChicago at this point too. Would you mind expanding on this point (quoted above)? I have gotten the impression that students in the UChicago stat department are motivated to work independently, but I'd like to know what you mean by their having more peer pressure.

I just got that impression by talking with their current students at both schools. In fact both schools have many requirements to be a candidate, so I would say the two programs are equally heavy load in terms of their requirements. But since historically Chicago is more reputed in natural sciences than Yale is, its culture is a bit more "cut-throat" (I agree with you Chicago students seem to be more motivated thus work much harder) while Yale's atmosphere seems a lot more friendly in general. Maybe cohort size is also something affects working culture, Chicago stats is obviously larger than Yale's in terms of both faculty and students.

[Nothalfgood]

I see. I should probably talk to more students and determine this for myself, but I appreciate hearing your thoughts.

[Stat Assistant Professor]

1 hour ago, trynagetby said:

@Stat Assistant Professor Just out of curiosity what programs do you think are currently over-ranked?

 

I am not inclined to answer this on a public forum. But to make my own personal assessment, I look at student outcomes (i.e. where the PhD graduates have placed), the caliber of the faculty (i.e. current big names and "rising stars"), and the research output (i.e. how actively are the faculty publishing? And which venues are they publishing in?). Note that to assess how "strong" the research output is, it may be a bit different for Statistics vs. Biostatistics. For example, Biostat departments might possibly put heavier weight on publications in journals like Biostatistics, Biometrics Practice, and JRSS: Series A, as well as publications in top specialized journals (like BMC Bioinformatics, Nature Genetics, and American Journal of Human Genetics if the faculty member works in statistical genetics). These venues enjoy wide prestige in the Biostatistics community, but you might not see as many Statistics faculty members publishing in them. 

Based on the criteria I mentioned, I think that Yale S&DS is quite under-ranked, given their PhD placements, caliber of faculty, and research output.  

[stat_guy]

2 hours ago, Stat Assistant Professor said:

Congrats on your outstanding acceptances! IMO, Yale is a very good program with some excellent professor (e.g. John Lafferty and Harrison Zhou) who are very renowned and well-known in the field of statistics. Yale's academic placements are also fairly impressive -- they've placed PhD alumni at UC Berkeley, University of Chicago, UPenn Wharton, and Princeton ORFE to name a few. This is an excellent placement record, which leads me to believe that many top schools view the Yale S&DS program favorably. If you are leaning towards industry, then I think that either Chicago or Yale would be fine. It seems like you have especially good vibes from Yale though, so I would definitely not think it's insane to pick Yale over a "higher ranked" school.

I am not really sure how their USNWR rank was determined but I truly believe that Yale is under-ranked relative to the department's strength (in terms of its faculty and student outcomes). Rankings are based on popular perceptions (surveys sent out to academic statisticians), which might be slow to change. I think the rankings are still fairly good for the most part, but there are a few that I think are over-ranked or under-ranked relative to their current strength -- Yale is one of those (I believe it's under-ranked).

Thanks for your advice, @Stat Assistant Professor! I'm also leaning towards Yale. Its excellent academic placement is definitely a big plus to me. Though I'm now a bit favor industry jobs, I believe there is still a pretty chance for me to stay in academia:) If the industry outcomes are similar from the two programs but academic placement is significantly better at Yale, I think Yale would be a better place for me regardless of the ranking thing.

One thing is that my POI at Yale is one of the big names but he seems to be less active and way too busier than my POI at Chicago who is a rising star and has a reputation of being very hands-on which I heard from his current students. I personally think I'm highly self-motivated, but still would like to have a more hands-on and supportive advisor.

[MathStat]

11 hours ago, Stat Assistant Professor said:

Congrats on your outstanding acceptances! IMO, Yale is a very good program with some excellent professor (e.g. John Lafferty and Harrison Zhou) who are very renowned and well-known in the field of statistics. Yale's academic placements are also fairly impressive -- they've placed PhD alumni at UC Berkeley, University of Chicago, UPenn Wharton, and Princeton ORFE to name a few. This is an excellent placement record, which leads me to believe that many top schools view the Yale S&DS program favorably. If you are leaning towards industry, then I think that either Chicago or Yale would be fine. It seems like you have especially good vibes from Yale though, so I would definitely not think it's insane to pick Yale over a "higher ranked" school.

I am not really sure how their USNWR rank was determined but I truly believe that Yale is under-ranked relative to the department's strength (in terms of its faculty and student outcomes). Rankings are based on popular perceptions (surveys sent out to academic statisticians), which might be slow to change. I think the rankings are still fairly good for the most part, but there are a few that I think are over-ranked or under-ranked relative to their current strength -- Yale is one of those (I believe it's under-ranked).

Is John Lafferty still advising?

[StatsG0d]

On 3/10/2021 at 2:53 AM, kkk123117 said:

 

UChicago:

Pros

1. Highly ranked for its statistics program. Right behind Stanford and Berkeley, same as Harvard, according to US News 2018.
2. Larger department thus more possibilities to try out. Though I currently have set research interests and have a great chat with my POI over there, it's very likely for people to change their interests. If so I would have more choices at Chicago than at Yale.
3. Excellent placement in Quant companies like Two Sigma, Citadel, etc. Might get more alumni connections during job searching.
4. Personally feel like UChicago's location would make me more marketable for a Quant job, not sure how important the location is for a PhD graduate though. Please corrent me if wrong.

Cons

1. From chatting with couple current students, they seem to have more peer pressure at Chicago than those at Yale. Yale's students would come out as more well-rounded. Though I know this factor shouldn't be given a high priority for a PhD program, I certainly prefer a less pressured vibe if the outcomes of the two programs are comparable.
2. Chicago's brand recognition may not be as good as Yale. Though I think this is not that much important for a PhD, but can anyone comment on this?

 

Overall speaking, at both schools I have interested professors who have agreed to take me, so I wouldn't be worried about advisors - all very good, one big name, one rising star. My primary concerns are on the outcome of the two programs and their working culture.

Responding to the statements in bold:

Finance companies recruit quants globally, not locally or regionally. I know people who have gotten full time offers for quant positions in finance from U Florida stats and UNC biostats. That should not be a deciding factor whatsoever in my opinion.

I disagree that Chicago's brand recognition is not as good as Yale. They're very comparable I think. Yale probably gets mentioned more in media, etc. because it's Ivy League. U Chicago has the 4th most Nobel prize winners out of any school in the world (by comparison Yale is 11th). I agree that brand recognition is not as important for a PhD. 

I would go to U Chicago. Much more to do, equal prestige, better department, etc. I don't really see where Yale has an advantage at all.

While I agree with @Stat Assistant Professor regarding the best way to evaluate is based on student outcomes, there could be a lot of self selection bias (such as what you are considering doing now).

[stat_guy]

13 hours ago, StatsG0d said:

Responding to the statements in bold:

Finance companies recruit quants globally, not locally or regionally. I know people who have gotten full time offers for quant positions in finance from U Florida stats and UNC biostats. That should not be a deciding factor whatsoever in my opinion.

I disagree that Chicago's brand recognition is not as good as Yale. They're very comparable I think. Yale probably gets mentioned more in media, etc. because it's Ivy League. U Chicago has the 4th most Nobel prize winners out of any school in the world (by comparison Yale is 11th). I agree that brand recognition is not as important for a PhD. 

I would go to U Chicago. Much more to do, equal prestige, better department, etc. I don't really see where Yale has an advantage at all.

While I agree with @Stat Assistant Professor regarding the best way to evaluate is based on student outcomes, there could be a lot of self selection bias (such as what you are considering doing now).

Thanks for your thoughts @StatsG0d. I strongly agree there're much more possibilities to try out at Chicago, students can work with someone in stats, TTIC, booth and CAM, whereas choices at Yale are more limited. But this has been a different story for me since I already had clear research interests and professors of interest accordingly. My POIs at Yale are two senior faculty; big name but less active and pretty busy by looking at their publication records and talking to current Yale students. However I did set up a talk with them and they said they'll focus more on their research in the coming years. My POI at Chicago is a rising star, and very supportive and hands-on (according to his recent graduates and current students). What do you think of senoir busy big name VS junior hands on rising star? If this is relevant, I'm a self-motivated person and like pushing myself hard but you know everyone likes a more supportive advisor:)

Besides mentor style, placement is also something I'm seriously considering. I don't want to shut down the door of academic positions at such an early stage, though I do a bit favor industry right now. But who knows, five years can change lots of things. For academic job, Yale has real stronger records, like AP at Wharton/Columbia/UChicago/Princeton in recent five years while Chicago doesn't have such strong cases. For industry I think the two are in pretty much the same good level. 

[bayessays]

I don't think prestige should be a huge factor because I think the ratings of these programs is closer than they appear and I've seen a lot of Yale grads doing very well lately.  You're going to be extraordinarily successful at both places, so I'd go based off program vibes and which department/city you think will help you be most productive and happy the next few years.  To me it sort of sounds like you want to go to Yale.

[Stat Assistant Professor]

Yeah, in terms of academic placements, Yale has done exceptionally well. This leads me to believe that Yale S&DS must be viewed favorably among many departments. Of course, it's really the responsibility of the applicants themselves to make themselves 'stand out' (you can't just rely on the brand name of your alma mater). But the fact that Yale has produced so many of these outstanding job market candidates who got tenure-track jobs at University of Chicago Statistics, Columbia Statistics, UPenn Wharton Statistics, and Princeton OFRE speaks to the department's strengths. I am not sure about Yale's industry placements, but I can't imagine it being *much* different than the industry placements for UChicago. 

[StatsG0d]

On 3/12/2021 at 1:16 AM, stat_guy said:

What do you think of senoir busy big name VS junior hands on rising star? If this is relevant, I'm a self-motivated person and like pushing myself hard but you know everyone likes a more supportive advisor

Having a supportive advisor and good working chemistry is really crucial to be productive IMO, and this should definitely be taken into account when selecting an advisor. A lot of students find having co-advisors, one junior and one senior, can be fruitful.

On 3/12/2021 at 1:16 AM, stat_guy said:

For academic job, Yale has real stronger records, like AP at Wharton/Columbia/UChicago/Princeton in recent five years while Chicago doesn't have such strong cases.

Since you are considering specific advisors only at each department, the more relevant metric IMO would be where these advisors have placed students, not where the department as a whole did.

Either way, both departments are incredibly strong and I don't think there's a bad choice to be made here. Go where you think you feel best about. Based on what you've said it kind of sounds like you've already made up your mind to go to Yale.

[MathStat]

@stat_guy The "Wharton/Columbia/UChicago/Princeton" placements at Yale come from only 2 professors, one of which is Andrew Barron, a potential advisor I had considered myself when deciding grad schools. You should determine very carefully how active these two professors are currently, how motivated they are, and whether they are willing to advise you for the entire duration of your PhD (i.e. won't retire in a few years). As I mentioned above, Yale does have J Lafferty, a point brought up all the time both in favor of Yale and as a drawback to Chicago ("Chicago lost Lafferty, so it lost some of its value"), but is Lafferty actually actively advising students nowadays? Furthermore, many of the good placements came from David Pollard, but I think he must have retired by now.

Having 2 senior profs agree to advise you before you start is indeed very nice, so I completely understand your inclination towards Yale. If you are sure you want to do mathematical statistics, then go ahead. Chicago would indeed offer more diverse research options, including hot areas such as ML and, more recently, causal inference. For math stat we have Chao Gao who is recognized as a clear outstanding researcher and who likely will become tenured soon (definitely during your PhD time). Tengyuan Liang form Booth is also an excellent choice and he will also likely become Assoc. Professor soon enough. 

Chicago may not promise you a famous advisor from the start, but you can certainly have one later on, assuming there is a match in research interests. Your first year, you could work with a motivated younger professor, then potentially add a famous advisor later on. 

I encourage you to come to the Chicago visit day on Monday and ask us questions. I can answer questions through PM, as well. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by MathStat

[stat_guy]

5 hours ago, MathStat said:

@stat_guy The "Wharton/Columbia/UChicago/Princeton" placements at Yale come from only 2 professors, one of which is Andrew Barron, a potential advisor I had considered myself when deciding grad schools. You should determine very carefully how active these two professors are currently, how motivated they are, and whether they are willing to advise you for the entire duration of your PhD (i.e. won't retire in a few years). As I mentioned above, Yale does have J Lafferty, a point brought up all the time both in favor of Yale and as a drawback to Chicago ("Chicago lost Lafferty, so it lost some of its value"), but is Lafferty actually actively advising students nowadays? Furthermore, many of the good placements came from David Pollard, but I think he must have retired by now.

Having 2 senior profs agree to advise you before you start is indeed very nice, so I completely understand your inclination towards Yale. If you are sure you want to do mathematical statistics, then go ahead. Chicago would indeed offer more diverse research options, including hot areas such as ML and, more recently, causal inference. For math stat we have Chao Gao who is recognized as a clear outstanding researcher and who likely will become tenured soon (definitely during your PhD time). Tengyuan Liang form Booth is also an excellent choice and he will also likely become Assoc. Professor soon enough. 

Chicago may not promise you a famous advisor from the start, but you can certainly have one later on, assuming there is a match in research interests. Your first year, you could work with a motivated younger professor, then potentially add a famous advisor later on. 

I encourage you to come to the Chicago visit day on Monday and ask us questions. I can answer questions through PM, as well. 

Thanks for your insights @MathStat! I'll definitely attend Chicago visit day and hopefully see you there.

[Stat Phd]

On 3/13/2021 at 7:11 PM, MathStat said:

@stat_guy The "Wharton/Columbia/UChicago/Princeton" placements at Yale come from only 2 professors, one of which is Andrew Barron, a potential advisor I had considered myself when deciding grad schools. You should determine very carefully how active these two professors are currently, how motivated they are, and whether they are willing to advise you for the entire duration of your PhD (i.e. won't retire in a few years). As I mentioned above, Yale does have J Lafferty, a point brought up all the time both in favor of Yale and as a drawback to Chicago ("Chicago lost Lafferty, so it lost some of its value"), but is Lafferty actually actively advising students nowadays? Furthermore, many of the good placements came from David Pollard, but I think he must have retired by now.

Having 2 senior profs agree to advise you before you start is indeed very nice, so I completely understand your inclination towards Yale. If you are sure you want to do mathematical statistics, then go ahead. Chicago would indeed offer more diverse research options, including hot areas such as ML and, more recently, causal inference. For math stat we have Chao Gao who is recognized as a clear outstanding researcher and who likely will become tenured soon (definitely during your PhD time). Tengyuan Liang form Booth is also an excellent choice and he will also likely become Assoc. Professor soon enough. 

Chicago may not promise you a famous advisor from the start, but you can certainly have one later on, assuming there is a match in research interests. Your first year, you could work with a motivated younger professor, then potentially add a famous advisor later on. 

I encourage you to come to the Chicago visit day on Monday and ask us questions. I can answer questions through PM, as well. 

Who does Chicago have on causal inference? Didn’t find anyone 

[stat_guy]

8 hours ago, Stat Phd said:

Who does Chicago have on causal inference? Didn’t find anyone 

No one before, but they hired a new AP working on ML and causal inference as of Jan 2021.

[nauhark]

Actually, I knew a guy who received both Yale's PhD offer and Chicago's Master offer. And he went to Chicago's master program. Probably this should be something that you may want to know.

[stat_guy]

4 hours ago, nauhark said:

Actually, I knew a guy who received both Yale's PhD offer and Chicago's Master offer. And he went to Chicago's master program. Probably this should be something that you may want to know.

Are they both statistics? If it's biostats or other related programs that'd be a totally different story. But even if they're both stats, I don't see Yale's stats is that bad though Chicago does have a higher rank.

[nauhark]

14 hours ago, stat_guy said:

Are they both statistics? If it's biostats or other related programs that'd be a totally different story. But even if they're both stats, I don't see Yale's stats is that bad though Chicago does have a higher rank.

Yes, both of them are from stat side, maybe he dead-set on getting into Stanford and wanted to spend another two years to increase the chance. I only heard about the decision, and didn't know him very well.

[DanielWarlock]

7 hours ago, nauhark said:

Yes, both of them are from stat side, maybe he dead-set on getting into Stanford and wanted to spend another two years to increase the chance. I only heard about the decision, and didn't know him very well.

Very interesting story. Maybe he is not dead-set on getting a PhD? Yale stats is actually very good. With guys like Harrison Zhou, Zhou Fan and Van Vu, I can even see one choosing Yale over Stanford when admitted to both. Not to mention the tremendous cost of money and time and the uncertainty of actually getting into Stanford (or even Yale itself) 2 years later. Sounds like a terrible decision.