Fall 2022 Business Ph.D. Applicants

[cjphd21]

On 2/16/2022 at 4:44 PM, Elf2019 said:

I've been interviewing with Boston College this week. How about you? So far everyone seems very nice. I'd assume that if you got invited to interview with LBS you'd also get invited to interview at Boston College, but I guess I really have no idea. I applied to the former but haven't yet heard from them, unfortunately.

EDIT: Curious if anyone knows much about the reputation of Boston College, also. I chose to apply there because of the fit of the faculty and because I thought I needed one school that was (relatively) less competitive to get into compared to others I was targeting. But I didn't have a ton of contextual information before applying.

Somehow I interviewed with LBS OB but didn't get an invite from BC, even though the research fit with BC is much better for me. Weird. 

[Mr. Jameson]

3 minutes ago, Vyndian said:

I hope so.

Hypothetical for you: would you do a predoc if Yale/Columbia offered it?

edit: as compared to just starting at brown asap 

A year ago I would have said yes. Though my gf is at Yale so there is that added benefit of being there for me. 

But this year I decided not to apply to predocs too just because I just spent too much time and money on my masters, I have solid research experience, and my letters of rec were very good. I told myself that if I didn't get in anywhere this year I would just give up on a PhD and do something else. 

I think a predoc is a very good option if you think the thing that is lacking in your profile is a strong letter and research experience. Frankly I felt like I had those things and if there was anything lacking in my profile it was going to be the things I couldn't really remedy with a predoc (bad math grades freshman year, B+ in real analysis, etc.). Now I could have retaken something like real analysis (and frankly it seems kinda silly to think im only as good as the grade I got in some math classes ~8 years ago), but I sort of had a principle that I did not want to go anywhere that was going to waste my time by expecting me to do something like that.

So I guess it comes down to, do you think this would really add to your profile and is delaying a 4-6 year PhD by 1-2 years feel like something you're prepared to do? 

[Vyndian]

2 minutes ago, Mr. Jameson said:

A year ago I would have said yes. Though my gf is at Yale so there is that added benefit of being there for me. 

But this year I decided not to apply to predocs too just because I just spent too much time and money on my masters, I have solid research experience, and my letters of rec were very good. I told myself that if I didn't get in anywhere this year I would just give up on a PhD and do something else. 

I think a predoc is a very good option if you think the thing that is lacking in your profile is a strong letter and research experience. Frankly I felt like I had those things and if there was anything lacking in my profile it was going to be the things I couldn't really remedy with a predoc (bad math grades freshman year, B+ in real analysis, etc.). Now I could have retaken something like real analysis (and frankly it seems kinda silly to think im only as good as the grade I got in some math classes ~8 years ago), but I sort of had a principle that I did not want to go anywhere that was going to waste my time by expecting me to do something like that.

So I guess it comes down to, do you think this would really add to your profile and is delaying a 4-6 year PhD by 1-2 years feel like something you're prepared to do? 

I appreciate your well thought out perspective.

It’s a choice I might have to make Monday and could give me name-brand if I’m willing to make that sacrifice because research was the only thing my profile lacked.

[Mr. Jameson]

2 minutes ago, Vyndian said:

I appreciate your well thought out perspective.

It’s a choice I might have to make Monday and could give me name-brand if I’m willing to make that sacrifice because research was the only thing my profile lacked.

If research is what you lacked and can definitely be a good option. I know past Yale Tobin fellows who were able to first author papers published in very good Econ journals. Also depending on the predoc, there is a fair amount of mentorship that is useful for planning your future. And being at name brand predoc definitely helps as well-- I know several predocs at UChicago that I have seen over the last two years place really well because of who was writing their letters. 

I think long term goals matter too-- do you want to be a professor or do you want to work in industry? Tier 2 university likely means Tier 3 placement for a professor, but industry options can be quite good non-Tier 1 schools. 

[Vyndian]

7 minutes ago, Mr. Jameson said:

If research is what you lacked and can definitely be a good option. I know past Yale Tobin fellows who were able to first author papers published in very good Econ journals. Also depending on the predoc, there is a fair amount of mentorship that is useful for planning your future. And being at name brand predoc definitely helps as well-- I know several predocs at UChicago that I have seen over the last two years place really well because of who was writing their letters. 

I think long term goals matter too-- do you want to be a professor or do you want to work in industry? Tier 2 university likely means Tier 3 placement for a professor, but industry options can be quite good non-Tier 1 schools. 

Well, that’s why it’s a hard decision. If you wind up at Chapel Hill— the line is so blurred that all the major state R1s will be open to you if you’ve got work in the pipeline.

Same with a place like U GA. Their placements are the lower state R1s. But, not a bad life?

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Vyndian

[Elf2019]

5 hours ago, Vyndian said:

I appreciate your well thought out perspective.

It’s a choice I might have to make Monday and could give me name-brand if I’m willing to make that sacrifice because research was the only thing my profile lacked.

Which schools qualify as "name-brand" to you? This is the first time I'm seeing that term used as a category for schools (as opposed to Ivy League, R1, etc.)

[Vyndian]

13 minutes ago, Elf2019 said:

Which schools qualify as "name-brand" to you? This is the first time I'm seeing that term used as a category for schools (as opposed to Ivy League, R1, etc.)

Ivy is too geographically specific, R1 is too broad.

So, private schools that are recognizable by name. Duke, for example. Or MIT.

[Elf2019]

29 minutes ago, Vyndian said:

Ivy is too geographically specific, R1 is too broad.

So, private schools that are recognizable by name. Duke, for example. Or MIT.

I see. So you mean like "household name" type schools? 

I guess that's kind of subjective, but when it comes to those, I think Ivy League, MIT, Duke, Stanford, Northwestern, Berkeley, maybe UChicago. Is that also what you envision?

[Vyndian]

23 minutes ago, Elf2019 said:

I see. So you mean like "household name" type schools? 

I guess that's kind of subjective, but when it comes to those, I think Ivy League, MIT, Duke, Stanford, Northwestern, Berkeley, maybe UChicago. Is that also what you envision?

It’s all subjective!

[Elf2019]

39 minutes ago, Vyndian said:

It’s all subjective!

Sure - and I think for some schools they have more of a regional reputation than a national one, also. 

Related question, but in a thread from last year I saw someone mention a google doc that shows the relationship between people's school of degree and their school of placement, when it comes to business schools. I haven't been able to find anything like that though. Is that something you've heard about?

[Vyndian]

58 minutes ago, Elf2019 said:

Sure - and I think for some schools they have more of a regional reputation than a national one, also. 

Related question, but in a thread from last year I saw someone mention a google doc that shows the relationship between people's school of degree and their school of placement, when it comes to business schools. I haven't been able to find anything like that though. Is that something you've heard about?

Fool’s errand outside of the broadest of generalizations. The name brands can place at themselves— UNC/UMich/UT Austin being the exceptions, for the most part. The state schools/major R1s tend to consider it a victory when they place at themselves, but usually you “step down” into the lower R1 ranks. 
 

Below that and it’s very hard to tell. 
 

edit: I want to clarify as to why I’m calling it a fool’s errand— much of a successful placement comes from the candidate themselves. School reputation helps. But rockstars are gonna rockstar.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Vyndian

[Elf2019]

30 minutes ago, Vyndian said:

Fool’s errand outside of the broadest of generalizations. The name brands can place at themselves— UNC/UMich/UT Austin being the exceptions, for the most part. The state schools/major R1s tend to consider it a victory when they place at themselves, but usually you “step down” into the lower R1 ranks. 
 

Below that and it’s very hard to tell. 
 

edit: I want to clarify as to why I’m calling it a fool’s errand— much of a successful placement comes from the candidate themselves. School reputation helps. But rockstars are gonna rockstar.

Oh to clarify - I think the doc that had been referenced contained specific data about specific graduates from a specific year, across many schools. I just thought it would be interesting to see what happened in a given year in that level of detail, that's all. 

In what way do you mean that UNC/UMich/UT Austin are exceptions?

And how would one go about distinguishing between "major R1s" and "lower R1s"? I'm not sure if maybe this information is common knowledge to people who are already "in the field" in some capacity, but to me it all seems very opaque...

[Vyndian]

15 minutes ago, Elf2019 said:

Oh to clarify - I think the doc that had been referenced contained specific data about specific graduates from a specific year, across many schools. I just thought it would be interesting to see what happened in a given year in that level of detail, that's all. 

In what way do you mean that UNC/UMich/UT Austin are exceptions?

And how would one go about distinguishing between "major R1s" and "lower R1s"? I'm not sure if maybe this information is common knowledge to people who are already "in the field" in some capacity, but to me it all seems very opaque...

Right. I’m saying that document’s summation of individuals cannot be taken as a gestalt— there’s too much variation between the candidates to draw much of anything other than the broadest of generalizations.

 

It is opaque and it also varies by sub field. For example, some of the best marketing schools in the country are Duke, U Florida and UT Austin. Which is why, for the latter, you’ll see a Stanford placement on their webpage.

 

Mich regularly places at “elite”/“name-brand” institutions. U NC can, especially considering Duke next-door.

The best advice I can give you is make a list of 50-70 schools. On their webpages, they’ll list their placements. It’ll be fairly easy to start seeing patterns when you compare a U Maryland to an Auburn. From that calibration, it’ll become more clear.

[louiseyzi]

Did anyone hear from Wharton Marketing consumer behavior?

[Elf2019]

On 2/18/2022 at 4:53 PM, Vyndian said:

The best advice I can give you is make a list of 50-70 schools. On their webpages, they’ll list their placements. It’ll be fairly easy to start seeing patterns when you compare a U Maryland to an Auburn. From that calibration, it’ll become more clear.

What I have seen is that not all schools do list comprehensive placements of all their recent grads online. A lot of them list schools past students have been placed into, but without knowing what % of total students that represents it seems pretty open to interpretation. So that's why the idea of the spreadsheet was interesting to me. Is that a resource you've actually seen anywhere though, or are you just talking about it in the abstract?

[Vyndian]

3 minutes ago, Elf2019 said:

What I have seen is that not all schools do list comprehensive placements of all their recent grads online. A lot of them list schools past students have been placed into, but without knowing what % of total students that represents it seems pretty open to interpretation. So that's why the idea of the spreadsheet was interesting to me. Is that a resource you've actually seen anywhere though, or are you just talking about it in the abstract?

Are you asking me if I’m talking in the abstract about going through the process? No, I did it for myself as I narrowed the choices down. My doc isn’t anywhere online.

If you’re asking me “where’s the placement sheet?” it’s here.

And you’re right. Some schools won’t do a list of fully comprehensive placements. They’ll list “representative” or “top” placements. Those are the ones that should make you think “Hmm, what are they hiding?”

Regarding your percentage, almost all of the R1’s get you a placement *somewhere.*

[Elf2019]

3 minutes ago, Vyndian said:

If you’re asking me “where’s the placement sheet?” it’s here.

Yep, that's what I was asking. Thanks!

And as far as listing placements comprehensively, I've pretty much only seen the very top schools do that. Most of the R1s don't seem to do it. I agree it likely means the placements aren't as strong overall - but that's why I thought more details could be helpful when it comes to comparing programs as a (current) outsider.

[Vyndian]

8 minutes ago, Elf2019 said:

Yep, that's what I was asking. Thanks!

And as far as listing placements comprehensively, I've pretty much only seen the very top schools do that. Most of the R1s don't seem to do it. I agree it likely means the placements aren't as strong overall - but that's why I thought more details could be helpful when it comes to comparing programs as a (current) outsider.

I just want to push back on this a little bit— I’ve definitely seen more comprehensive lists than non-comprehensive ones.

They can be named differently. Like if you look at a place like ASU, they have them listed as “phd alumni” rather than “placements.”

[Elf2019]

25 minutes ago, Vyndian said:

I just want to push back on this a little bit— I’ve definitely seen more comprehensive lists than non-comprehensive ones.

They can be named differently. Like if you look at a place like ASU, they have them listed as “phd alumni” rather than “placements.”

I feel like I've seen a good number of non-comprehensive lists, but it also sounds like my review of this aspect of schools was not as thorough as yours. While I don't remember every school website I visited, I do know that Boston College, which I've interviewed at, doesn't seem to provide a comprehensive list of placements, and I'm fairly sure it wasn't the only one. 

[BDCDN]

Has anyone heard back from Rotman (University of Toronto), Accounting yet?

[PhD-hopeful]

Regarding the placement conversation above -- you may find this article helpful/informative: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.1400005. The bottom line finding was that business school PhD grads generally place about 25-30 ranks lower than the school where the go for their PhD. There are many many exceptions to this, but that is the "average" outcome. 

Additionally, for any program you're admitted to, the PhD coordinator will likely be able to provide you a comprehensive list of placements. Websites are sometimes guilty of just posting the good ones - or worse, just posting the academic ones and not showing that a large number of their graduates do not place in academic positions. Similarly, some schools post where the candidate placed, but do not list whether it was for an assistant professor role or a post-doc. Definitely good to get clarification on that as well. 

[Elf2019]

2 hours ago, PhD-hopeful said:

The bottom line finding was that business school PhD grads generally place about 25-30 ranks lower than the school where the go for their PhD. There are many many exceptions to this, but that is the "average" outcome. 

Additionally, for any program you're admitted to, the PhD coordinator will likely be able to provide you a comprehensive list of placements

For sure. If admitted, I will be asking for more detailed data on this, as well as contact info for recent grads. 

Thanks also for sharing that other paper. This part is interesting, imo: 

"Differences by gender are greatest for graduates of the most prestigious institutions in computer science and business, where median placement for women graduating from the top 15% of units is 12 to 18% worse than for men from the same institutions." 

That being said, I've been confused about which ranking system is most reliable for placement purposes when it comes to OB PhD programs. Somewhere I came across a ranking system that was based on the number of publications in management journals per faculty member, so I was using this to choose schools to apply to. But I'm unsure if a different ranking system might be more reliable in terms of job placements post-PhD.

[PhD-hopeful]

5 hours ago, Elf2019 said:

For sure. If admitted, I will be asking for more detailed data on this, as well as contact info for recent grads. 

Thanks also for sharing that other paper. This part is interesting, imo: 

"Differences by gender are greatest for graduates of the most prestigious institutions in computer science and business, where median placement for women graduating from the top 15% of units is 12 to 18% worse than for men from the same institutions." 

That being said, I've been confused about which ranking system is most reliable for placement purposes when it comes to OB PhD programs. Somewhere I came across a ranking system that was based on the number of publications in management journals per faculty member, so I was using this to choose schools to apply to. But I'm unsure if a different ranking system might be more reliable in terms of job placements post-PhD.

Yeah, that's a good point - "rankings" are very arbitrary. Recent grad conversations are a great way to get a sense of where people place and how much the program/their advisors helped get them placed where they wanted to be. 

[Vyndian]

5 hours ago, Elf2019 said:

For sure. If admitted, I will be asking for more detailed data on this, as well as contact info for recent grads. 

Thanks also for sharing that other paper. This part is interesting, imo: 

"Differences by gender are greatest for graduates of the most prestigious institutions in computer science and business, where median placement for women graduating from the top 15% of units is 12 to 18% worse than for men from the same institutions." 

That being said, I've been confused about which ranking system is most reliable for placement purposes when it comes to OB PhD programs. Somewhere I came across a ranking system that was based on the number of publications in management journals per faculty member, so I was using this to choose schools to apply to. But I'm unsure if a different ranking system might be more reliable in terms of job placements post-PhD.

If you’re going down that rabbit hole, also enjoy the concept of “impact” versus “quantity” of pubs. ?

[Elf2019]

13 minutes ago, Vyndian said:

If you’re going down that rabbit hole, also enjoy the concept of “impact” versus “quantity” of pubs. ?

I mean, having nuanced/multiple factors that determine people's placement doesn't really make academia any different from any other profession, imo. Every job field has its idiosyncrasies. I'm just trying to learn more about the ins and outs of this one...

EDIT: And frankly, part of it is because I just got a (for me) great job offer shortly after applying to PhD programs. So I'm not 100% that I'll be joining a PhD program this year even if I get in, even though it's something I think I'd like to do eventually. If I'm not confident a particular program will lead to better longterm returns than this job, I might try and defer or hold off and try to shoot higher in a future year. Which is absolutely no disrespect to the schools I have been talking to - it's just a matter of the unique position in which I find myself suddenly.

Edited February 21, 2022 by Elf2019
update