How old were you when you began your PhD in psychology?

[Lavender_1]

Just curious  

Edited January 19, 2022 by Lavender_1

[Psyche007]

There's a big difference between starting at 30 and starting over 40 or 50. Looks a little ageist to me... ?

[SoundofSilence]

1 hour ago, Psyche007 said:

There's a big difference between starting at 30 and starting over 40 or 50. Looks a little ageist to me... ?

I think a lot of people don't realize how many older/ non-traditional students are out there. But we are out there  And the way things are going with so much competition, we might be starting to see older and older grad students.

[PsychBear92]

I'm finding it hard to believe that any decent portion of folks began their PhD at 21-23. That's assuming someone only needed 4 years for their bachelor's and they were accepted fairly soon after undergrad. I'm biased because I'm non-traditional (enrolled in community college at 21, bachelor's at 27), but I'm more interested in seeing the distribution of PhD starting ages in the 30+ group. As someone mentioned, it feels ageist to lump everyone 30+ together.

[frazyfar]

Started when I was 30. Hm.

[SoundofSilence]

OP - can you recreate this poll with a more detailed breakdown of ages? 

[SocDevMum]

On 1/19/2022 at 8:29 PM, Psyche007 said:

There's a big difference between starting at 30 and starting over 40 or 50. Looks a little ageist to me... ?

For real   There are way more "nontraditional" PhD students out there then people must be aware of...

[Psyche007]

On 1/20/2022 at 1:49 PM, PsychBear92 said:

I'm finding it hard to believe that any decent portion of folks began their PhD at 21-23. That's assuming someone only needed 4 years for their bachelor's and they were accepted fairly soon after undergrad. I'm biased because I'm non-traditional (enrolled in community college at 21, bachelor's at 27), but I'm more interested in seeing the distribution of PhD starting ages in the 30+ group. As someone mentioned, it feels ageist to lump everyone 30+ together.

I've been around a few graduate students under 23 who have struggled massively with the workload, responsibility, and maturity required to engage and be successful. I have had to ask myself serious questions as to what made them suitable for acceptance. The more unprepared students allowed into a programme, the more the programme becomes diluted in terms of complexity and intellectual demand and concentrated in terms of quantity of work. I've encountered a fair amount of basic busy work and my classes are largely unrewarding, but perhaps that is demonstrative of my programme, even though friends at other programmes say their experience is very similar.

I think that students are better prepared for grad school if they've lived and worked in the real world for a while. You get to see how much of grad school is self-important posturing. It's interesting how sheltered individuals are who have spent their lives in academia. It is a rich and fertile ground for nurturing narcissism, encouraging obsession with politics and reputation, taking yourself super seriously, and doing things for the sake of establishing a career instead of contributing to the field, something I see as the essence of any doctoral programme.

It's easier to get along with faculty when you are 'non-traditional'. Many seem pleasantly surprised and refreshed by a student who is autonomous, challenging, and highly engaged. Then there are some who just want you to be quiet and do as you're told. It's clear that they're very accustomed to dealing with children but not other adults.

But hey, I didn't start undergrad until 30, so my experience has been different the entire journey.

[I/OWA]

2 hours ago, Psyche007 said:

I've been around a few graduate students under 23 who have struggled massively with the workload, responsibility, and maturity required to engage and be successful. I have had to ask myself serious questions as to what made them suitable for acceptance. The more unprepared students allowed into a programme, the more the programme becomes diluted in terms of complexity and intellectual demand and concentrated in terms of quantity of work. I've encountered a fair amount of basic busy work and my classes are largely unrewarding, but perhaps that is demonstrative of my programme, even though friends at other programmes say their experience is very similar.

I think that students are better prepared for grad school if they've lived and worked in the real world for a while. You get to see how much of grad school is self-important posturing. It's interesting how sheltered individuals are who have spent their lives in academia. It is a rich and fertile ground for nurturing narcissism, encouraging obsession with politics and reputation, taking yourself super seriously, and doing things for the sake of establishing a career instead of contributing to the field, something I see as the essence of any doctoral programme.

It's easier to get along with faculty when you are 'non-traditional'. Many seem pleasantly surprised and refreshed by a student who is autonomous, challenging, and highly engaged. Then there are some who just want you to be quiet and do as you're told. It's clear that they're very accustomed to dealing with children but not other adults.

But hey, I didn't start undergrad until 30, so my experience has been different the entire journey.

I started as a fresh 22 year old and I will finish my second year at 23. 

Just like many findings in psychological research the answer is it depends. I graduated with 2 bachelor's degrees in 3.5 years and worked/volunteered in three different labs. I/O was not a concentration at my undergraduate university so I had to work even harder to be exposed to the industry/field. I worked in everything from being a Certified nursing assistant to a retail associate to an admission assistant. I attended an out of state college and got involved in three different organizations for my entire time (3.5 years) which exposed me to multiple people and life experiences.

Just because I am at least 7 years younger does not mean I am less prepared and less mature. I had to work just as hard to gain experience in order to be competitive. That might be your experience, but is definitely not a blanket statement for everyone doing PhDs at my age.

Perhaps my field naturally lends itself to contributing to psychology through applied settings, but I definitely do not think myself, nor the other students I am studying with are sheltered or working towards building our reputation.

I guess my point is that it is important to consider how you phrase things because even graduate students who are not non-traditional students can be "autonomous, challenging, and highly engaged."  I am not trying to discredit your experiences, just encouraging you to not hold as narrow of a scope of all young PhDs.

Edited January 23, 2022 by I/OWA

[SoundofSilence]

Like everything in life, I believe the reality is more nuanced and you're probably both right in some ways.

I am going to speak to this from my own experience, having started my grad school career really young, then life got in the way, then re-starting as an older student.

To get into a highly competitive program right out of undergrad I was similar to you @I/OWA - I worked hard to accumulate a lot of experience in a short amount of time and also had two bachelor's. I was a first gen student and lived through poverty, so I was exposed to some of life's burdens. I did well in my graduate studies, but now looking back, I can see exactly what @Psyche007 is talking about - it was not easy, I was naïve in many ways and still too young to understand many of the nuances. Since it was clinical psychology, this was even more relevant. I had the research methods knowledge and excellent grades yes, but I lacked many other things.

Now going into things at a much older age, I see how I have changed and accumulated a different set of abilities. Skills that will come in handy when it comes to both clinical work but also navigating academia. 

I do know very young grad students who go through it with flying colors. We have so many bright applicants that it's very likely that the incoming cohorts are really bright and frequently over-achieve. But I still see them insecure with how to deal with internal politics, how to advocate for themselves and how often they are afraid to set the boundaries needed to have a good work/life balance. They also don't know how life is like beyond grad school. Many faculty members take full advantage of these things for their own self-serving purposes and it really angers me. 

I realize it's only my perspective and my experience; but for me what @Psyche007said was totally true. I might have fought him a decade ago on this, but not anymore. And it's not just clinical - if you want to take your I/O knowledge to the business world after you graduate, you'll still have to accumulate the business experience, even if your research capabilities are flawless. Sometimes you just need to go through certain experiences so that it all comes together.

Tangential off-topic: @Psyche007seeing your post reminded me that it would be great to have a current grad student thread - irrespective of our ages, many of us could also use a support system for going through the highs and lows of the PhD. Are you still on board to starting that?

[Psyche007]

58 minutes ago, SoundofSilence said:

Tangential off-topic: @Psyche007seeing your post reminded me that it would be great to have a current grad student thread - irrespective of our ages, many of us could also use a support system for going through the highs and lows of the PhD. Are you still on board to starting that?

Yes, I am all for that!

16 hours ago, I/OWA said:

I started as a fresh 22 year old and I will finish my second year at 23. 

Just like many findings in psychological research the answer is it depends. I graduated with 2 bachelor's degrees in 3.5 years and worked/volunteered in three different labs. I/O was not a concentration at my undergraduate university so I had to work even harder to be exposed to the industry/field. I worked in everything from being a Certified nursing assistant to a retail associate to an admission assistant. I attended an out of state college and got involved in three different organizations for my entire time (3.5 years) which exposed me to multiple people and life experiences.

Just because I am at least 7 years younger does not mean I am less prepared and less mature. I had to work just as hard to gain experience in order to be competitive. That might be your experience, but is definitely not a blanket statement for everyone doing PhDs at my age.

Perhaps my field naturally lends itself to contributing to psychology through applied settings, but I definitely do not think myself, nor the other students I am studying with are sheltered or working towards building our reputation.

I guess my point is that it is important to consider how you phrase things because even graduate students who are not non-traditional students can be "autonomous, challenging, and highly engaged."  I am not trying to discredit your experiences, just encouraging you to not hold as narrow of a scope of all young PhDs.

I don't hold a narrow scope of all young PhDs and you can't discredit lived experience.

I'm not sure how you read "I've been around a few graduate students under 23 who have struggled massively..." as a blanket statement of "I think all young grad students are less prepared and less mature". I do think there are young grad students who are autonomous, challenging, and highly engaged and I think they're the ones that should be in grad school. Perhaps you are one of them.

I appreciate that you don't think of yourself or other grad students as being sheltered or working on an academic reputation, but how would someone know if they were? If students are taught that certain activities are intrinsically part of grad school, what would they look for to know? You have self-admittedly spent the majority of your life in school. You've been able to earn 2 Bachelor's degrees and spend time volunteering in labs. If you've done that while working full time jobs to support yourself, then indeed, I salute and admire your tenacity and hard work because it is clearly impressive. It also looks as though you spent time developing yourself personally, something I always bang on about. But you are *not* the average grad student, just as I am not.

I'm not just 7 years older than you. I'm 45. I'm older than most of my professors. I have spent more of my life outside of academia than inside it. I earned my first BS in about 3 years while raising my daughter and working full time and walked away from the idea of grad school for psychology because what I saw and learned demonstrated that academia is largely broken. I earned my second BS in 2 years in order to pursue medicine. But I felt that psychology could be saved, so I decided to go in to try and make changes, which means my perspective has been different from day one.

I don't hold anyone's background against them. None of us control the circumstances of our birth. There is an attitude that exists, and you see it clearly on display on Grad Cafe, of elitism, snobbery, and disapproval. If you came here knowing nothing about the logistics of academia (like I did) you'd leave thinking the only way to get in is to be early 20s, with several pubs, a high GPA, and tonnes of lab experience.

I'm generally contemptuous of that position and hang out here to offer a counterpoint. I came here looking for help, as I was in the first in my family to go to college and I am an immigrant. I read thread after thread on this board before applying and felt like there was no way in hell I'd ever be accepted to grad school. I didn't see myself represented, which I understand is an important element of encouraging non-traditional or diverse individuals to participate. Applying to a single programme and getting in first time taught me something, and my time spent as a grad student has taught me even more about the process and reality of it, so I stick around to offer support to those who show up and feel discouraged.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Psyche007

[I/OWA]

2 hours ago, Psyche007 said:

Yes, I am all for that!

I don't hold a narrow scope of all young PhDs and you can't discredit lived experience.

I'm not sure how you read "I've been around a few graduate students under 23 who have struggled massively..." as a blanket statement of "I think all young grad students are less prepared and less mature". I do think there are young grad students who are autonomous, challenging, and highly engaged and I think they're the ones that should be in grad school. Perhaps you are one of them.

I appreciate that you don't think of yourself or other grad students as being sheltered or working on an academic reputation, but how would someone know if they were? If students are taught that certain activities are intrinsically part of grad school, what would they look for to know? You have self-admittedly spent the majority of your life in school. You've been able to earn 2 Bachelor's degrees and spend time volunteering in labs. If you've done that while working full time jobs to support yourself, then indeed, I salute and admire your tenacity and hard work because it is clearly impressive. It also looks as though you spent time developing yourself personally, something I always bang on about. But you are *not* the average grad student, just as I am not.

I'm not just 7 years older than you. I'm 45. I'm older than most of my professors. I have spent more of my life outside of academia than inside it. I earned my first BS in about 3 years while raising my daughter and working full time and walked away from the idea of grad school for psychology because what I saw and learned demonstrated that academia is largely broken. I earned my second BS in 2 years in order to pursue medicine. But I felt that psychology could be saved, so I decided to go in to try and make changes, which means my perspective has been different from day one.

I don't hold anyone's background against them. None of us control the circumstances of our birth. There is an attitude that exists, and you see it clearly on display on Grad Cafe, of elitism, snobbery, and disapproval. If you came here knowing nothing about the logistics of academia (like I did) you'd leave thinking the only way to get in is to be early 20s, with several pubs, a high GPA, and tonnes of lab experience.

I'm generally contemptuous of that position and hang out here to offer a counterpoint. I came here looking for help, as I was in the first in my family to go to college and I am an immigrant. I read thread after thread on this board before applying and felt like there was no way in hell I'd ever be accepted to grad school. I didn't see myself represented, which I understand is an important element of encouraging non-traditional or diverse individuals to participate. Applying to a single programme and getting in first time taught me something, and my time spent as a grad student has taught me even more about the process and reality of it, so I stick around to offer support to those who show up and feel discouraged.

Oh I certainly agree with many of the points you made. I am a first gen student myself and had no direction/idea about the process of getting into graduate school. I was actually told not to look at this site because it would be an awful comparison game (which it was) because I got into my current program off a wait list, while I saw many others getting accepted to multiple programs.

I was certainly not trying to discredit your experiences/ academic journey, just trying to speak on behalf of being a younger PhD. And sure, it has been hard but I don't think it was something I wasn't prepared for or had trouble speaking to people about in order to remedy situations. I think a lot of it is just skills I learned through being involved in activities in high school and college.

 

@SoundofSilence I think studying I/O teaches students right away to set boundaries. I also think my program and advisor specifically allows us the freedom to pick and choose what we are working on, so we again have boundaries through that.

 As an individual who loves both mentoring undergraduate students and working on different challenges everyday, I have exposed myself to the business industry working on applied projects and as an intern for several companies. So whatever path I may take I will be able to utilize all of my knowledge.

Edited January 23, 2022 by I/OWA

[SoundofSilence]

5 hours ago, I/OWA said:

 

@SoundofSilence I think studying I/O teaches students right away to set boundaries. I also think my program and advisor specifically allows us the freedom to pick and choose what we are working on, so we again have boundaries through that.

 As an individual who loves both mentoring undergraduate students and working on different challenges everyday, I have exposed myself to the business industry working on applied projects and as an intern for several companies. So whatever path I may take I will be able to utilize all of my knowledge.

Hey that's great to know, I'm really glad this is happening in your program. In the programs that I am familiar with, in US and Canada, things seem a little bit different. Not sure because it's clinical or maybe I have interacted more with older/more conservative programs. In any case, it sounds like a great experience, hope you enjoy your journey!