Are "Ivy League" schools really that bad?

[waddle]

Hey guys/gals,

I very recently got an invitation to fly out to one of the premier institutions in my field--and probably in most other fields, as well--for a visit/interview. I know most people would be thrilled to have an opportunity like this, and while I appreciate the chance to visit, I'm pretty apprehensive about the whole thing. Although I applied to this school because its research & people are amazing, I don't feel motivated to go to this interview/visit. A short while ago, I visited a less-highly ranked (but still awesome) school, but I didn't have this kind of negativity at all. I fear that I'll feel like I won't belong or that I'll stand apart in a negative way from the community at this very 'prestigious' university. (I don't know if this is a case of the impostor syndrome, or what.)

For a long time, I've been of the belief that (to put it bluntly) students of the Ivy League (and I'm using "Ivy League" very loosely here to encompass all top-ranked research-focused small private universities with huge endowments) are generally pretentious & rich, and care little about anything but seeking fame or fortune. Now, obviously this is an over-generalization (and I sincerely apologize to any of the students/alumni of these schools who are on The GradCafe--I don't mean any offense, I admire you greatly, but there's no better way I can express my thoughts), but to what degree? I've spent my entire undergraduate career at a public institution that is not known for anything, and nobody I know personally is an Ivy graduate, so I've got nowhere to turn. So here's where I need your help, GradCafe members, especially those of you who have experienced life at both types of universities. What's wrong with me? Am I unfairly prejudiced against schools that are generally perceived as prestigious? I would really like to clear up any doubts before going into this interview, and I'm imploring you to help me do this.

With gratitude,

waddle

[lhfields]

I am in a different discipline, but I think I can add my 2-cent. The main topic seems to be 'fit'. If you were an undergrad applying to Ivies, the fit question should concern you more. This was a huge deal for me, because I was in between going to small liberal arts college where 50% of its student population came from New England and a big public university where I might feel lost and confused for the first year and half. I think this fit question is seen in a different angle when you apply to doctoral programs. It isn't so much whether you can go to frat parties or get to mingle with your dorm friends. After all, doctoral programs are designed to promote a small-group intellectual production under your adviser's apprenticeship. So the relevant 'fit' question, to me at least, is whether the professors in the department and people in the program are productive, not completely insane, and truly care about academic collaboration and beyond-the-program placements. If it is the case that your general fit to the student body and school is a more discernible issue to you, then it maybe better for you to talk to the admissions office, probably the undergrad one, to get a sense of what a typical day is like on campus. I am less empathetic to your concerns about the prestigious schools pursuing fame and fortune and virtually care nothing. I think a more relevant issue should be whether the professors in your accepted program care about his or her students. Hope my 2-cent helps.

[Bukharan]

Give it a go, perhaps.

Just don't stress about it. It is just another trip, say, you are travelling somewhere new! Go, do the interview, be yourself - if you don't like the school, too bad for them. Think about it this way: you have absolutely nothing to lose, right? You are in a position of power here. Give it a go, I say!

[natsteel]

There's certainly no reason not to go. Understandably, you have some preconceived notions about the culture of these universities and their students. Though I am also attending a large, public university for undergrad, I think you'd be pleasantly surprised at how far off your ideas are. Of course, there will be people like you described, however, in my field, my mentor talked to a professor at a top Ivy who told him that they were always looking to diversify their incoming cohorts rather than always taking wealthy, 21-year old undergrads from other Ivies. I suspect that you will find much more diversity at the school you're going to visit than you expect.

Bukharan is exactly right. Go and see what happens... you might end up liking the school and the people you meet there. But you'll never know if you don't at least go. Congratulations on the interview and good luck, waddle!!!

Edited January 16, 2011 by natsteel

[Strangefox]

I agree with all said above.

Congrats!!!!

[shepardn7]

. So here's where I need your help, GradCafe members, especially those of you who have experienced life at both types of universities. What's wrong with me? Am I unfairly prejudiced against schools that are generally perceived as prestigious?

I think you are, in a way.

I don't see what the problem is here. You are overthinking this. Go to the school, do your interview, ask the professors your questions, ask the students questions, walk around campus--treat it as you would any other school you might attend. See how you feel there, but remember not to let your current views affect your experience. Try to go in with a neutral attitude and let the place sway you in either direction. Visit the schools to which you are accepted and try to get a feel for the atmosphere. You might be surprised and feel at home at a prestigious school, or you might hate it there for good reasons, but be sure to avoid the self-fulfilling prophecy.

I do think Ivy League or "rich" schools tend to treat both their undergrad and doctoral students well because they are in such a financially privileged position. Money really helps. These schools are usually (not always) prestigious because they have funding for pretty much everyone, which takes a lot of competition and stress out of the equation. They have resources and money to update them. They often have a more "academic" culture on campus (versus, say, a partying or sports-oriented culture). They also have drawbacks, but non-prestigious universities have those as well--you just have to make your own cost-benefit analysis based on what you want out of your program. Also remember that many non-prestigious universities have some prestigious grad programs, i.e., ones with amazing resources and funding for doctoral students in that field even if the school overall is less endowed.

I can tell you that I've attended both an Ivy League school (for undergrad) and a large public university (for a graduate degree in the arts) and I missed my undergrad institution greatly. I seriously couldn't understand the big deal about frats and football. They had no money for academics (especially grad students in the humanities!), but plenty for football. Not all large public schools are obsessed with sports (and not all schools obsessed with sports are public), but this one was and I hated the atmosphere it created with a passion. I don't mind sports--sometimes I even watch them--but I do mind when universities emphasize them. Undergrads would even ask me if they could skip my class because of a football game happening the night before (hangovers, you know). The difference in funding, morale, student culture, and resources (at least in the humanities) between my "prestigious" undergrad and "non-prestigious" grad institution were great. I don't regret attending my program, and over three years I had many students who were smart and worked very hard in my courses. But I was glad to leave the university as a whole behind.

I feel like the words "pretentious" and "rich" get thrown around far too often, maybe because they've been co-opted by an anti-intellectual movement. First, I went to an Ivy and I couldn't be farther from "rich" (as for "pretentious," maybe, LOL); let's just say that I'm paying 74 dollars a month for "emergency health insurance" with a 7500 deductible and really shouldn't be because I can't currently afford it. Second, it's easy to judge rich people when you're struggling, but at the same time you can't just write off all rich people simply because they're rich. More, the words "well-educated" or "intelligent" or "academic" have become equatable to "pretentious" or "elitist" in the discourse, but that's not fair. I think you might be looking at a school with the funds to provide excellent resources for students and unfairly deciding that "money=bad" and "financial struggle=good" because "rich=elitist" and "poor=real." IMO, it's false dichotomy. There are many people (sometimes those with political motivations) who would call you "pretentious" and "elitist" simply for wanting to attend grad school (especially a doctoral) in the first place, and who think the university in itself is by definition a place of pretension and elitism. Do you think that's fair?

Moreover, practically speaking, it does not serve you well to reject a school with money and resources for you because you dislike prestigious schools. So I'd go to the school with an open mind. Ask yourself the right questions, too. You might have a "feel good" visit at your program that's less highly-ranked and less funded, but remember that your overall happiness there can't be gauged just by the visit alone. You might love the atmosphere and student body there, but if they don't have the resources and funding you need to study chemical earth sciences productively and comfortably, you won't be happy in the long term. You need the facilities and funding to do your research. If these two differently ranked schools have equatable opportunities for you to do the work you need to do in a timely manner, then you should think more about the general "feel" or "vibe" of a place. You are there to do the best work you can, and it's easier to ignore or deal with a "pretentious" atmosphere than lack of funding, research time, and facilities--as long as your lower-ranked school has those, there is no reason to go to a higher-ranked school just because it's higher-ranked.

Woo, sorry for the long post.

[shepardn7]

Oh yes, and also, congrats to you!

[fuzzylogician]

The one thing I was concerned about before I accepted the offer from the school I currently attend (which meets your broad definition of "Ivy") was the social atmosphere. I'm so glad I go to visit, because my fears were completely unfounded. I do understand your concern, coming from a foreign university that's not particularly famous for anything, and getting my information about American schools from 2nd and 3rd hand sources. 'Clicking' with the students and the faculty is very important -- possibly the most important factor for a successful grad school experience -- and the only way you will know if you get along with them is to visit and see how it goes. Try it, you have nothing to lose. My department, at least, turned out to be nothing like I had worried it would be.

[waddle]

Wow, thanks everyone for your responses.

I fear I may have been unclear about the comment that students at Ivies are "pretentious & rich, and care little about anything but seeking fame or fortune". I'm not implying that the Ivy institutions have little in the way of frats or sports. I don't give half a hoot in hell about those things, and at any rate, we don't have that where I go to school, anyways . (My undergrad university is about as community college-like as you can get, so I have no real idea what a frat or a football game is--in fact, I've never been to a college sports game.) I was more concerned with the academic culture; where I go to school, most of the student body (~90%) is of some ethnic minority, and faculty here really do have to go out of their way to assist students in the learning process, as the community here is just a hodgepodge of so many different socioeconomic backgrounds. I find this type of campus culture (or lack thereof) to be very fulfilling, and I can't really imagine what it would be like to be around students who didn't have to pull a 40-hour workweek and raise kids while completing their bachelors degree.

I guess my main concern is that the Ivies will be too uniformly elite for my comfort. Nonetheless, I'll go and see what it's actually like at the campus. I appreciate all your help!

[milou]

Wow, thanks everyone for your responses.

I fear I may have been unclear about the comment that students at Ivies are "pretentious & rich, and care little about anything but seeking fame or fortune". I'm not implying that the Ivy institutions have little in the way of frats or sports. I don't give half a hoot in hell about those things, and at any rate, we don't have that where I go to school, anyways . (My undergrad university is about as community college-like as you can get, so I have no real idea what a frat or a football game is--in fact, I've never been to a college sports game.) I was more concerned with the academic culture; where I go to school, most of the student body (~90%) is of some ethnic minority, and faculty here really do have to go out of their way to assist students in the learning process, as the community here is just a hodgepodge of so many different socioeconomic backgrounds. I find this type of campus culture (or lack thereof) to be very fulfilling, and I can't really imagine what it would be like to be around students who didn't have to pull a 40-hour workweek and raise kids while completing their bachelors degree.

I guess my main concern is that the Ivies will be too uniformly elite for my comfort. Nonetheless, I'll go and see what it's actually like at the campus. I appreciate all your help!

Also, as lhfields suggested, keep in mind that the pre-professional/finance types which give some of the Ivies a bad rap are not going to be applying to PhD programs. (Not to say all finance/law types are like this by any means, but the majority of the old money/Northeastern/elite douchey types do tend to go into these fields as I've witnessed at my own undergrad (Ivy) institution. Their families are often firmly established in these fields, they have the connections, and the Ivy degree is just another feather in their cap). As has been discussed in other forums, those going into PhDs with eyes open realize the difficulty of the job market and are NOT in it for the money. This is not to say that we are not ambitious, but with the type of work that is expected (6-7 years of fairly grueling research and a heavy teaching load), and the fact that we PhD candidates simply cannot expect nearly the returns that one could from a finance job, it simply requires a specific type of person (read: nerdy and perhaps awkward, but interesting to talk to...hopefully!) to tackle this degree. Sorry for the run-ons, but you get the point. Anyway, I think that, even at the more elite schools, the atmosphere of PhDs in science and the humanities is certainly different from that of undergrad programs. (There are always those who think they are god's gift to academia simply because they are at any Ivy, but the low pay + hard work + prepping for a difficult job market from which they are not exempt will probably set them straight about that. )

[fuzzylogician]

<snip>

I guess my main concern is that the Ivies will be too uniformly elite for my comfort. Nonetheless, I'll go and see what it's actually like at the campus. I appreciate all your help!

It will be different, then, based on what you describe. But different doesn't necessarily mean bad.

Ivy-type schools (their grad schools, in particular) usually have a different kind of diversity than you may be used to - you will be surrounded by brilliant people from all over the US and all over the world. They will be people with diverse backgrounds and fresh perspectives on things, that you could learn a lot from. Private schools in particular can afford to attract more international students from cultures you otherwise might not be exposed to. I'm sure less people will be (very) poor, but that doesn't mean that everyone will be the same. In the end, we are all students who make just enough to get by, and none of us are rich, even if our school's endowment is considerable. It's not undergrad -- people attend a school because of fit, not just because of its name, and they get funded to do so -- so why would grad students be snobby or elitist? I'm also sure that you could find outreach programs organized by the school or by the nearby community so you'll be able to keep in touch and contribute the way you have been doing in your current school. As I said, in the end you just have to visit and see how you feel about each school, and you'll get more out of it if you keep an open mind.

Edited January 16, 2011 by fuzzylogician

[Nessie]

First of all, congrats! I think you should definitely go and see what you think of the place. From my own experience, people do tend to be prejudiced towards highly ranked schools. My undergrad institution is very highly ranked in my country and has a reputation for elitism and snobbery that it doesn't deserve. I know you're not implying all those at Ivies are snobs, but some people do have this misconception. To be honest, I was pretty appalled at the way people at my postgrad uni (much less highly ranked) stereotyped those who attending my undergrad. 90% of the people I met at this place were really wonderful, interesting people. Just because a bunch of people have similar backgrounds, that doesn't make them any less interesting or unique! The faculty (in my department at least) were really nice and helpful in everything and genuinely seemed to want to help you. The small size of the place allowed you to form really strong relationships with people. Everyone there is a friend of a friend, that's just how it is.

Sure, there were some people who thought they were better than everyone else, but I'm pretty sure they exist wherever you go! My point is, don't judge a book by its cover and don't let a reputation that is probably undeserved put you off a school that might be right for you! Good luck!

[natsteel]

Anyway, I think that, even at the more elite schools, the atmosphere of PhDs in science and the humanities is certainly different from that of undergrad programs.

This. I think it's important to realize that the undergraduate and graduate culture and demographics are more likely to be different at an Ivy than at a public institution. Your characterization of Ivy students and comments about Ivies being "uniformly elite" sounds more like the common Ivy undergraduate stereotype. Ivy graduate programs are not made up primarily of graduates of other Ivy institutions, though there are some of those. The most uniform things you will likely find is brilliance and self-motivation. To be honest, I'm not really sure where the OP is coming from.

I'm from the same type of system as the OP... even my four-year school, to which I transferred from a similar CC, is dominated by ethnic minorities with family and work responsibilities. However, if I were to get accepted to an Ivy, I would look forward to being part of a community that is highly focused on academic pursuits. Experiencing both those ranges will make you a more versatile teacher, should that be the vocation you're pursuing.

Just because you found that type of school "fulfilling" does not mean it is the only kind of campus culture you will find so. Like fuzzylogician said, you need to be more open-minded about this.

[prolixity]

I guess my main concern is that the Ivies will be too uniformly elite for my comfort. Nonetheless, I'll go and see what it's actually like at the campus. I appreciate all your help!

Come and visit. My graduate program is about 40% international students, 40% public school students, and 20% private. As far as I know, no one in my dormitory has ever been excluded from a social event because of a non-Ivy league upbringing. Such a distinction is actually quite stupid, if you think about it. (And how elite do you think we feel, living in a graduate student dormitory rather than apartments?)

I go to a school in a place where we can discuss both ancient greek poetry and quantum field theory at the same dinner table. Don't let your unfounded biases prevent you from experiencing a similarly awesome opportunity.

Brand names don't matter in graduate school.

[Agradatudent]

I think it really depends on the specific student. A grad student at my public college went to Princeton in his undergrad and did terribly which is why he ended up at my school instead of another Ivy League for finance. That was his explanation. He definitely looked down at us going said university as an undergrad. He was in an undergrad class because he had to catch up in mathematics before starting his program, which is how i met him.

[XOwlfan]

I think you should visit! I've found that the atmosphere really varies between programs and schools. I've interviewed at an Ivy where I was accepted for a master's program--between the interviews and meeting with current students, I felt like I would have a difficult time finding peers. People were quite "standoff-ish." I'm currently in a master's program at an almost-Ivy and feel so at home with the student body--an extremely friendly, highly academic environment. My family was shocked that I turned down an Ivy for my current program, but it was definitely the right decision for me. However, I've met others who attended the program I turned down and loved it. Ultimately, it's important that you find your own personal fit.

Congrats on the interview!!!!!!!

[neuropsych76]

I understand what you are feeling. I'm from a lower-middle class family and even though I attend a decent private liberal arts school, I was somewhat apprehensive before I spent my summer working in a lab at an Ivy League school.

However, I am glad I gave it a chance because it was a wonderful experience. Most of the people I met were very nice and only a few seemed pretentious. I think the snobby pretentious stereotypes of people from Ivy League schools is definitely embellished. The Ivy I was at this summer was like any other school I've visited. Really, the only difference is the average car you see there is a bit more expensive

[starmaker]

Hi Waddle. I'm an alum of a school that meets your definition of "Ivy League" (by the way, I am of a mixed-ethnic background and from a state and region that is synonymous in much of the country's minds with backwardness, though my immediate family were middle-to-upper-middle-class as I grew up). I've interacted with people from a variety of different schools, and I've attended schools that aren't "Ivy League".

It's important to realize that there's no uniform culture across the schools that you're talking about. Some of them have more underrepresented minorities than others. Some have more students from public schools, low-income backgrounds, etc, than others. And sometimes there are differences between undergrad and grad culture - at my alma mater, they had a lot of similarities, but at the similarly elite university a few miles away, they were quite different.

People keep stressing that undergrad and grad culture are not the same thing, but you'll be interacting with undergrads (teaching them, participating in student activities with them, possibly working with them in the lab), so I think it's important to stress that there's nothing inherently broken about the undergrad culture of an elite university, either. The people that I knew at my alma mater were not pretentious people, whatever their background (most of them weren't rich, either, though upper-middle-class was probably overrepresented). In a few cases, I was friends with people for years before finding out that their parents had eight-figure net worth - I would never have guessed just from interacting with them! At the other end of the spectrum, I knew people there who had been homeless before, worked on factory assembly lines, etc.

fuzzylogician makes an excellent point - the types of diversity that you'll see at an elite institution may be different than the types that you're used to. There will be a lot fewer people having to work 40 hours/week throughout undergrad to support a family, but there will be people from all over the country and the world.

If you have any specific questions, feel free to PM me, though I can only really speak to my alma mater.

[psycholinguist]

I did my undergrad degree at an Ivy League school, and I absolutely loved it! There were a few morons here and there - that's true of every school - but it was a big enough place that ignoring them was easy. The vast majority of the people I met there were (and still are) so hard-working and academically-minded that they were very down-to-earth and didn't have the time or need to worry about superficiality and money and those sorts of things. Furthermore, with so much alumni-support, the school was able to offer financial aid to so many people that there really wasn't much of an elitist feel to it. Students came from all over the U.S and the world - I was one of hundreds of international students - to study everything. Full of special people, both in terms of the students and the faculty.

If you feel the research and people are amazing, then go visit! My guess is that you'll discover there that yes, the research and people are amazing. Which is exactly the sort of way you need to feel about a grad-school if you're going to do well there. Worried that the environment might be a bit of a drag? Go and find out! If it is, you can stop worrying and go elsewhere. If it's not, you can stop worrying and accept the (hypothetical) offer of admission!

I know a guy from a working-class background who attended the same school as I did, also with the help of financial aid. He applied to some grad-schools and ended up being unexpectedly offered a place at Harvard. I got the feeling that he felt pretty darn weirded-out by it, but he decided to go for it and, as far as I know, is enjoying it just fine!

[sjc86]

I completed my undergrad at a large public school and am now working at one of those incredibly prestigious universities. The differences lie mostly with the undergraduates, and less-so with the graduate students. But that really makes sense, no? Its the "restriction of range" issue. Only a subset of undergrads go on to graduate school which really levels the playing field. There is no reason not to go to the interview and meet with other grad students. See if you click with them, and if you dont, oh well, it was just a lost weekend.

Also, gifted individuals often report that "imposture" feeling. If they accept you, it is because you have demonstrated that you are capable of working at their level. Dont over analyze it, just accept it for what it is. Beyond that, there's no point in writing them off before you even get there.

[BKMD]

Congrats on the interview. I'll just agree with what everyone else has said in that you should definitely go, because ultimately what matters in your choice is the people that you'll be working with (your advisor(s) and lab mates) and you won't know what to expect until you meet them. I had similar conceptions about the elite school I ended up attending but I was completely wrong. I think this is partly because engineering is generally unpretentious, but there's also the fact that grad students are being funded rather than paying their own way, so there are fewer class barriers.

[Raputa]

OP, I agree that you should definitely visit the campus--but I understand your concerns. I applied to a few Ivies (no word yet!) for Fall '11, and have had some of the same hesitations. Such as, "if I get into ____, will I actually want to go there?" I'm from a lower middle-class family in a widely lower mid-class & just straight-up poor region. The climate/culture Ivy universities is something that I've never experienced personally--and perhaps you haven't either--which is exactly why you should visit and get an idea of the place. Decisions are better made after we replace our preconceptions with reality. Good luck and congratulations!

[osodulce]

Having gone to both a big public university and one of those Ivy-types, I can understand your concerns. I had similar ones, and my Ivy-type experience hasn't been perfect. Mostly, I don't think that people at these places intend to be snobbish or elitist--most of the time--but there's a considerable amount of, shall we say, unexamined privilege.

That said, the people who are going to be your peers all had to prove themselves intellectually to be admitted. That tends to weed out at least the people who have unfounded arrogance.

There have been a lot of good points raised in the previous posts. I just want to add two things. About funding, my sense is that, in this economic environment, private institutions are less likely than state governments to run out of money and decide to stop paying graduate students. The place that I've found the most attachment to elitism is in the undergrad population, and if part of your funding package is teaching, you will have to interact with them. When you visit--and I don't think that you can make a fair decision without visiting--seek out graduate students from similar backgrounds as you and ask them about their experiences. Be open and honest about this as a concern. What people say in response and how they respond to the question will tell you a lot.

Congratulations and good luck with your decision making process.

[kateow]

I agree with what everyone has said, but would like to throw out one additional point.

I recommend trying your best to move past the preconceptions before you get there. I went to a prestigious institution for my MA and found that the people who took things at face value (that the people around them were passionately--and often awkwardly--trying to explore a wide range of ideas) enjoyed their experience a lot more, but people that approached the experience with something of a chip on their shoulder, expecting people to look down on them, ended up having that impression.