While waiting...hoping not to get in?

[nhyn]

Maybe it's just because the waiting process is too long, I have been having...um, thoughts. It's a mix of the usual self-doubts and some personal stuff. I was just wondering...Is anyone thinking it might be a good thing not to get in this year? Why? Also, if you have to choose between your marriage/engagement and grad school, which one will you compromise on?

For me, maybe not getting in this year is a good thing, because:

- If I could, I wouldn't have applied this year. I was really hoping to work for at least 2 years, but as an international student, my visa only allows one year of work in the US. My work as an RA now is very useful, and if only I could work for another year, I believe I could be an even better candidate. My significant other and I are planning to get married later this year, and once I become a permanent resident, I can work some more and gain more experience.

- I'm working in a different state and my SO and I visit each other from time to time. It's doable, but we have been doing this our last year of college, too, so it has become very tiring. I am realistic about our relationship, and so is he; we really think we're going to last. Which is why when I chose schools to apply, I chose those that are at most 2 hours of driving from where his work is. He has been working for a year - his job is to his liking, utilizes his expertise, and pays very well, which is why I don't think it's possible for him to change job, at least in the next few years. So I made my compromise, and now I'm sort of regretting it - not because of our relationship. It's still great, and I think it'd be so great if we could live together at last. BUT, all the programs/POIs I'm applying to aren't exactly stars in my field - don't take me wrong, they're still very respectable POIs with very good research, but in terms of "star power" - connections, fundings, etc., they are probably not as strong as some other POIs who work in some other faraway states. So maybe if I don't get in this year, I will get a chance to apply to more schools with more "star power" POIs. (it was also very unfortunate that the famous POIs in my (geographical) area aren't doing the research that I want to pursue).

When I asked my professors and boss for LORs, I always felt the need to preface with explanations of why I'm not applying to more schools and more famous POIs. Compromising my career for personal happiness (relationship-wise) was NEVER something I was capable of, up until recently. Even during the summer, I was still contacting POIs from all over the country, full intent to apply, but when it was time to send in apps, I caved. What would you do if you had to choose between personal happiness and a successful career? Or rather, did you go through the same thing and if you did, what did you do?

Edited February 7, 2011 by nhyn

[gradgirlwannabe]

Due to an overactive case of self-doubt, I've convinced myself that I really want to pursue an MA instead of going straight into an MA/PhD program.

[Langoustine]

So you say you only applied to schools within 2 hours from your partner, and that these did not have 'all stars' but it was OK since your partner was staying at his job for the next few years...

Then you say next year you could apply to more/better schools further away...so you want to live one year with your SO and then apply for more schools with better programs but further away, potentially going to live far away? Is this right?

Maybe you could defer for a year...get married, live with him, and get more experience. But if you apply again for better schools further away you have to face the possibility you will not live with him unless he moves with you...Can you spend 4-6 years in grad schools doing the long distance thing?

[Langoustine]

For what it's worth I was dating someone, the relationship was not long (a few months) but we were getting semi serious. We are both in very transient places in our lives and knew it would never work long distance, both of us have done the long distance thing and agree it is not for us. Plus I know for myself I wouldn't be able to devote as much energy on my studies :/ Plus there was absolutely no way we would end up in the same school (let alone the same country!) and we did not want to feel like we compromised our respective careers...I know I would feel some resentment if I followed him (and vice versa) and it would take its toll us

Then again I know a couple who spent years in different countries doing their grad degrees! If you are capable of that then you are solid!

[nhyn]

So you say you only applied to schools within 2 hours from your partner, and that these did not have 'all stars' but it was OK since your partner was staying at his job for the next few years...

Then you say next year you could apply to more/better schools further away...so you want to live one year with your SO and then apply for more schools with better programs but further away, potentially going to live far away? Is this right?

Maybe you could defer for a year...get married, live with him, and get more experience. But if you apply again for better schools further away you have to face the possibility you will not live with him unless he moves with you...Can you spend 4-6 years in grad schools doing the long distance thing?

that is right. If I don't get in this year, I will be forced to apply more widely, therefore including schools far away. The idea of LDR really depresses me but the idea of not getting a good job after my PhD also depresses me. I guess we can't have our cake and eat it too...

edit(to reply to your new post): I'm sorry that happened and yea, I think if I don't get in this year, I will have to/will be willing to do LDR for 4-5 years and then try to work out something with my SO. I admire people who can endure that long though even if it's worth it.

Edited February 7, 2011 by nhyn

[OnceAndFutureGrad]

Also, if you have to choose between your marriage/engagement and grad school, which one will you compromise on?

There's a recent discussion on this topic I was discussing this with my SO (you can read our "story" on that thread) and we agreed that there are some things that are more important than graduate school and careers. Come to think of it, I'm also reminded of jaxzwolf's on life being the journey, not the destination. (Hm, I'm spending a lot of time on this forum.)

Good on you for having doubts and airing them publicly! There are many out there who display a maniacal "if you aren't rabidly and single-mindedly fervent about graduate school YOUDON'TDESERVETOBE(T)HERE raarararrrr!!" attitude. When competition is fierce, it's like we have to pretend to be superhuman just to make it, let alone achieve success. Poo on that, I say!

[Langoustine]

I think if I don't get in this year, I will have to/will be willing to do LDR for 4-5 years and then try to work out something with my SO. I admire people who can endure that long though even if it's worth it.

Is he in a field that is easily transferrable?? Idk like computers or something? I had a friend who was applying for grad schools and her husbands' job and company were pretty big and common, he was confident in his chances at transferring to a satellite office or another job.

[HappyCat]

Maybe it's just because the waiting process is too long, I have been having...um, thoughts. It's a mix of the usual self-doubts and some personal stuff. I was just wondering...Is anyone thinking it might be a good thing not to get in this year? Why? Also, if you have to choose between your marriage/engagement and grad school, which one will you compromise on?

For me, maybe not getting in this year is a good thing, because:

- If I could, I wouldn't have applied this year. I was really hoping to work for at least 2 years, but as an international student, my visa only allows one year of work in the US. My work as an RA now is very useful, and if only I could work for another year, I believe I could be an even better candidate. My significant other and I are planning to get married later this year, and once I become a permanent resident, I can work some more and gain more experience.

- I'm working in a different state and my SO and I visit each other from time to time. It's doable, but we have been doing this our last year of college, too, so it has become very tiring. I am realistic about our relationship, and so is he; we really think we're going to last. Which is why when I chose schools to apply, I chose those that are at most 2 hours of driving from where his work is. He has been working for a year - his job is to his liking, utilizes his expertise, and pays very well, which is why I don't think it's possible for him to change job, at least in the next few years. So I made my compromise, and now I'm sort of regretting it - not because of our relationship. It's still great, and I think it'd be so great if we could live together at last. BUT, all the programs/POIs I'm applying to aren't exactly stars in my field - don't take me wrong, they're still very respectable POIs with very good research, but in terms of "star power" - connections, fundings, etc., they are probably not as strong as some other POIs who work in some other faraway states. So maybe if I don't get in this year, I will get a chance to apply to more schools with more "star power" POIs. (it was also very unfortunate that the famous POIs in my (geographical) area aren't doing the research that I want to pursue).

When I asked my professors and boss for LORs, I always felt the need to preface with explanations of why I'm not applying to more schools and more famous POIs. Compromising my career for personal happiness (relationship-wise) was NEVER something I was capable of, up until recently. Even during the summer, I was still contacting POIs from all over the country, full intent to apply, but when it was time to send in apps, I caved. What would you do if you had to choose between personal happiness and a successful career? Or rather, did you go through the same thing and if you did, what did you do?

I feel your pain. My husband is a somewhat prominent figure in his company and cannot simply move to any locale, especially since he's in financial services (the city would need a good financial district). I limited my schools to places we knew he could find work (e.g. his contacts have offers for him). This hampered my ability to choose top programs for my field.

Once in a blue moon, I regret that decision. I tell myself that I should be studying here, there, everywhere. But really, my husband is willing to make sacrifices (he's willing to get a job in another state and whatnot) and I'm willing to make sacrifices too. That's how marriage works. Frankly, I view my career as part of my personal happiness and thus I do what I can to create a balancing act--it's not like I'm sacrificing the PhD completely and becoming a housewife (which is totally not for me).

Sure I could go to UPenn or whatever--but I'd be alone and miserable. My family is too important to me to do that. Of course, this route is not for everyone. I talked to a professor once who told me this: "I sometimes wish I did more--that I tried to be a great scholar and work at <ivyschool> or something. But I have a friend who is going for tenure at <ivyschool> and she publishes like crazy, does research grants all the time, and she's not going to get tenure any time soon. She's killing herself. And she's not married and doesn't have kids. And my family means everything to me."

I think we all get that wistful feeling whenever we're put in a situation like this: What if I just left him? or What if I limited myself to stay with him? Ultimately, I suggest going with your gut, and try not to let the occasional pangs of guilt affect you too much.

[Amalia222]

I really empathize with your predicament, and yet I find it frustrating that the woman is always the one who is expected to give up her goals for the man. If I were in your position, I'd go to school, and then hopefully within a few months the SO would be able to relocate to whatever school. If he is a skilled worker with experience and education, it shouldn't be too hard to find work. You, on the other hand, may only get so many chances to finish your education. I'm pro-education, and I've always felt that relationships come second to life goals such as fulfilling the dream of higher education. A partner should support, and not hinder, that sort of thing...but maybe you don't really want/need to go to the school so badly. In my case, for example, my lack of an education is preventing me from getting a good job in my field. So I need it, and any SO I have would have to understand, and be willing to sacrifice one job. It's a tough spot though, wouldn't want to be in your shoes. Good luck!

[anonacademic]

I really empathize with your predicament, and yet I find it frustrating that the woman is always the one who is expected to give up her goals for the man. If I were in your position, I'd go to school, and then hopefully within a few months the SO would be able to relocate to whatever school. If he is a skilled worker with experience and education, it shouldn't be too hard to find work. You, on the other hand, may only get so many chances to finish your education. I'm pro-education, and I've always felt that relationships come second to life goals such as fulfilling the dream of higher education. A partner should support, and not hinder, that sort of thing...but maybe you don't really want/need to go to the school so badly. In my case, for example, my lack of an education is preventing me from getting a good job in my field. So I need it, and any SO I have would have to understand, and be willing to sacrifice one job. It's a tough spot though, wouldn't want to be in your shoes. Good luck!

I wholeheartedly agree with this post. The bolded part is what really gets me riled up - because it's so often the case. I also find it discouraging and confusing that the woman who chooses her career over her family be seen as taking a lesser path - perhaps her career, her publications are just as fulfilling, just as significant as another woman's family? Sure, maybe one woman cannot imagine her life without her husband/children, but why can't she imagine that everyone may not feel that way?

I particularly like this article by Emily Toth/Ms. Mentor: "He Doesn't Like the Midwest" on the Chronicle of Higher Education (subscription only, which is why I'm not linking it). Perhaps, looking at this objectively, one should take into consideration the following statistics, then determine for his/herself what is the best decision:

The average career lasts 30 years

The average marriage lasts under 7 years, and half of US marriages end in divorce

Ms. Mentor continues: "...it might be easier to find a new husband than to find a new job." Obviously, she's being cheeky here, but still makes a good point.

As for your particular situation, OP, I weigh in favor of considering your career a bit more. It's a big decision, and one you might come to regret if it's made too hastily.

[HappyCat]

I get irritated at people who think I don't take my career seriously because I have limited my choices a bit more. I understand how women (and men!) judge women who choose careers over family (I live in NYC and see pleeeeeeeenty of women who choose career and are perfectly happy with that choice), but I think the inverse happens as well. People like me need to be concerned about how a school will view me if I want to start a family, or how other women will think I simply "caved" to my man. For me, the best balance was for my husband and I to really sit down and say "What are the most viable options that we BOTH can be successful and happy in our careers and with our family?" And to be honest, I don't think its me giving in to him OR sacrificing my career.

To the original poster: It sounds like--I am filling in some vague holes in your narrative--you didn't necessarily have the type of conversation to see the best options for both of you (even if you both sacrifice a bit). Did you? It seems a bit more like "Well, he's happy with his job so I'm going to go around him" instead of "We're both willing to make whatever changes necessary to balance our personal and career goals." Also, is it possible to get your work visa extended? I know people who have been working more than a year on a work visa at my husband's company.

[nhyn]

This is going to be a long post as I tried to reply to everyone

There's a recent discussion on this topic [...]

[...]There are many out there who display a maniacal "if you aren't rabidly and single-mindedly fervent about graduate school YOUDON'TDESERVETOBE(T)HERE raarararrrr!!" attitude

Thanks for the link - knowing other people's experiences definitely helps in my decision making As for doubts: I really admire people who absolutely know what they want to do; I was like that when I was younger, but as I become exposed to more and more things, I become more and more unsure There are just...too many ways to live your life, and not just one. I think it's good to have doubts. It makes you think carefully before you decide, and just more realistic in general.

Is he in a field that is easily transferrable?? Idk like computers or something?

he is. But his job right now is just perfect, and he only started in the summer. I'm not sure if it's good for someone so young, in this kind of economy, to jump ship after only 1 or 2 years at that good a place. Also...except one or two schools, most of the schools with star PIs are in the middle of nowhere (you know, towns where the only real business is the school itself), I'm just not confident that he'll be able to find jobs there.

I feel your pain. [...] I suggest going with your gut, and try not to let the occasional pangs of guilt affect you too much.

You spoke my mind! I agree with you completely - my job is also part of my happiness (I guess when I wrote "personal happiness" I only meant "relationship/emotional happiness" as opposed to "vocational/occupational happiness"), and my family is important to me. I'm not so ambitious as to win a Nobel prize or anything, but I do aspire to be a good researcher, and I'm constantly in doubts (esp. after visiting one of the schools that recently interviewed me) whether these schools/PIs will provide me with the resources I need. I guess at the end of the day, like you said, I'll just have to go with my gut and live with my regrets later

I really empathize with your predicament, and yet I find it frustrating that the woman is always the one who is expected to give up her goals for the man. If I were in your position, I'd go to school, and then hopefully within a few months the SO would be able to relocate to whatever school. [...] I'm pro-education, and I've always felt that relationships come second to life goals such as fulfilling the dream of higher education. A partner should support, and not hinder, that sort of thing...but maybe you don't really want/need to go to the school so badly.

I guess I should have written "she" instead of "he" and said I was a man? haha. I'm not sure about others, but no one "expects" me to give up my goals for the man. Also, I'm not "giving up my goals", rather, I'm having to make "serious adjustments" of certain goals (i.e. working for famous PIs). I'm NOT abandoning grad school altogether. I'm just not sure if my career prospects are as good if I work for less famous (but conveniently located) PIs. I guess my priorities are a bit different than yours - I view relationship (this is a long term, serious one; if it's just any relationship I'd probably have had an easier time deciding) and career/dream as equally important. My partner supports me, and is open to the possibility of moving to where I go to grad school, but if that happens, like I stated above in my reply to other posters, I'd feel like I am hindering HIS career.

I also find it discouraging and confusing that the woman who chooses her career over her family be seen as taking a lesser path -

As for your particular situation, OP, I weigh in favor of considering your career a bit more. It's a big decision, and one you might come to regret if it's made too hastily.

I don't know why we started this discussion of woman and choosing career and family, as I have no doubt career can be just as, if not more, fulfilling as family. But I understand your frustration. If you notice, I had the opposite situation - like I said, I had to explain myself to my professors as I was afraid they would think less of me for choosing family over career. Surprisingly a professor got back to me with her own story of how her husband and she had to go through immense difficulties because they were trying to do both - career and family. It was actually very encouraging Also, I feel like I'll regret no matter what I decide on; I'm just trying to minimize the regret rather than eliminate it altogether (doesn't seem possible right now, sadly).

I get irritated at people who think I don't take my career seriously because I have limited my choices a bit more.[...]

To the original poster: It sounds like--I am filling in some vague holes in your narrative--you didn't necessarily have the type of conversation to see the best options for both of you (even if you both sacrifice a bit). [...]

Again, I completely agree with you. Nowadays it seems like women who choose family over career are looked down on o_O which is rather funny, as choosing career or family is really just a matter of personal preferences.

You're somewhat right - we had a conversation, but...my partner being the person that he is, said yes, very definitively, when I asked if he would move to where I go to grad school, except...he doesn't really have a plan. It wasn't a very helpful conversation, and we probably have to talk again at some point. But there's also me who feels like I'm getting in HIS way by asking him to move so soon after he started this *perfect* job. Choosing school is the only time I can afford to be flexible. I imagine once I look for post-doc positions or teaching/research jobs, I will have to go wherever the job is, and then we'll have to be long distance for some time again, so why not use this chance to stay close? - was my logic. Now I still think my logic is not very flawed but I do wish I had applied to faraway places, just to give myself some options

Edited February 9, 2011 by nhyn

[elunia]

I'm glad other people are discussing this. OP: If you get in this year, you should go and just do your best, and you will have a shot at a good career based on your own work. And for you, maybe being with your SO is the right decision, since being apart will affect your quality of life.

This is the one aspect of my overall very successful round of applications that is keeping me from getting really excited about starting a program. My bf and I have been together for 4 1/2 years, living together for several years. I got into a bunch of schools, including one right here in the city where my bf and I live. However, it definitely wasn't a good fit for me compared to some of the others.

In the end, I went with the program that felt right for me, though it is a 1 hour flight away. I think I will like it: great PoI, great area to live in, other students really supportive, seems like people have good school/life balance.... But my bf isn't happy about this decision. He wanted me to stay here, but I would have really struggled for the 6-7 years it would take to finish, whereas now I have a shot at a good and fulfilling grad school career.

As for him, he is looking to leave his current job. He was planning to look here where we live now (a good place for his industry), but since I'm leaving this city he feels no reason to stay. He is now looking for jobs in Europe (he's a dual citizen). Objectively, this would be a great career move for him, and to be fair I shouldn't expect him to limit himself for me, when I didn't limit myself for him. However, there's a big difference between a 1 hour flight and a 7 hour flight, or 10 hour 2-legged flight.

We love each other a lot and are super happy together, and being apart is extremely difficult, but I just didn't see a way around this decision. If either of us gave up something to stay with the other, I think we'd feel bitter, but I'm afraid my bf is bitter about my decision anyway. It's really bugging me, and I don't know what to do. I don't want to feel guilty about my successes, but I don't want to lose him!

[Zouzax]

As for doubts: I really admire people who absolutely know what they want to do; I was like that when I was younger, but as I become exposed to more and more things, I become more and more unsure There are just...too many ways to live your life, and not just one. I think it's good to have doubts. It makes you think carefully before you decide, and just more realistic in general.

This is interesting as I'm the complete opposite -- when I was younger, I gave up on a lot of my dreams for the boys that were in my life. Now that I'm older and have more experience, I feel more able to say "I'm pursuing my goals, and would love for you to be a part of that, but if not .... sorry". It took a long time for me to get comfortable and confident enough to feel like I can survive on my own. I guess people work in opposite ways...

I don't think your decision is a bad one. Its really, really difficult to balance a professional and personal life, especially a professional life like ours, where we're not sure where we're going to end up, are constantly applying & pursuing goals, moving around the country/world for a Master's, Ph.D, post-graduate program ... Hearing the other poster's story about his/her friend working for an Ivy league, publishing papers & applying for grants without a tenure & without a relationship, made me realize that's not what I want at all. So as long as you can find a happy medium between your man and your career, even if that means making some compromises, I say go for it.

In the end, I went with the program that felt right for me, though it is a 1 hour flight away. I think I will like it: great PoI, great area to live in, other students really supportive, seems like people have good school/life balance.... But my bf isn't happy about this decision. He wanted me to stay here, but I would have really struggled for the 6-7 years it would take to finish, whereas now I have a shot at a good and fulfilling grad school career.

As for him, he is looking to leave his current job. He was planning to look here where we live now (a good place for his industry), but since I'm leaving this city he feels no reason to stay. He is now looking for jobs in Europe (he's a dual citizen). Objectively, this would be a great career move for him, and to be fair I shouldn't expect him to limit himself for me, when I didn't limit myself for him. However, there's a big difference between a 1 hour flight and a 7 hour flight, or 10 hour 2-legged flight.

We love each other a lot and are super happy together, and being apart is extremely difficult, but I just didn't see a way around this decision. If either of us gave up something to stay with the other, I think we'd feel bitter, but I'm afraid my bf is bitter about my decision anyway. It's really bugging me, and I don't know what to do. I don't want to feel guilty about my successes, but I don't want to lose him!

I think you hit the nail on the head - your bf is bitter about your decision. It seems to me that he isn't communicating how hurt he was by your decision to move and instead is acting out by choosing places even FURTHER away, to kind of say "Ha!! Take THAT! I can move, too!"

Of course, I'm just commenting as a third party but I know this all too well. When I announced to my bf last year that I was *definitely* leaving our current city & pursuing my Ph.D goals, he was really upset. So, what did he do? He signed up for his military service without telling me. When I got angry with him, he burst out "Well, you're not the only one that can make plans. I can make plans, too" That's when I realized he did it as a reaction to my announcing I was moving seemingly without including him in my plans.

After realizing this, I had a long talk with him. I told him how important our relationship is to me, and how it would mean the world for him to come with me. This didn't work like magic. It took a few weeks of more thinking on his part but it really cleared everything up. he realized I wasn't just packing up and abandoning him. Because that's what I think they feel like - like we're abandoning them. Now, he has never been more supportive of my decision. He will be done with his service in 6 weeks & he is actively involved in our moving plans. I try to keep him involved every step of the way so he feels like its his move, too.

So maybe, if you sit down with your bf and explain to him how much he means to you, how you want to be together, etc. it'll help you guys, too. Sometimes they just need to know you care, you know?

[everygirl]

What would you do if you had to choose between personal happiness and a successful career? Or rather, did you go through the same thing and if you did, what did you do?

I don't know if my story is applicable, but if I get into my top choice, I'll probably have to choose between a well-paying, secure job in government and grad school. I've been promoted recently and will probably be promoted again before September, so that'll make it harder. If I get an acceptance though, I will choose grad school. I figure I only have a few years to do an MA, and the rest of my life to be gainfully employed -- and I do believe that I will be gainfully employed in the future. Even though I know grad school will always be there, I want to do it when I'm young, unattached, and with no kids or a mortgage. I won't feel happy about leaving my job (which is not in my field) but I'm sure, absolutely sure, that I will regret passing up the opportunity for grad school. I can get another job, but I can't get these years back...

As for the relationship question, my boyfriend chose law school over our relationship. I should say ex-boyfriend. I don't begrudge him the choice -- if it's supposed to work out, it will. And it didn't.