Would you choose a lower ranked school over a higher one?

[Iknownothing]

OK guys....help! I basically have two schools to choose from - School A is a lower ranked school and School B is a higher ranked school.

School A:

Up-and-coming program, offers a dual degree in which the second degree program is in the top 5 in the nation. Visited the school and the place is awesome! Everyone is collegial and friendly. The town is small ( a plus in my book) and my husband and kids would love to live there. Plus, I'm in driving range from family members. They also have a higher than average placement record. Now, School A, after hearing of my acceptance to school B, upped their offer in order to be competive. Clearly, they want me there.

School B:

Highly ranked program. My advisor says I would be crazy not to accept their offer. Beautiful college town, although I haven't visited it yet. I would be working with some of the top people in my field. We would be far away from family and my husband would move there, but he isn't very excited about it. Cost of living is higher.

So, what should I do??? What would you do??

Edited March 1, 2011 by Iknownothing

[datroy]

OK guys....help! I basically have two schools to choose from - School A is a lower ranked school and School B is a higher ranked school.

School A:

Up-and-coming program, offers a dual degree in which the second degree program is in the top 5 in the nation. Visited the school and the place is awesome! Everyone is collegial and friendly. The town is small ( a plus in my book) and my husband and kids would love to live there. Plus, I'm in driving range from family members. They also have a higher than average placement record. Now, School A, after hearing of my acceptance to school B, upped their offer in order to be competive. Clearly, they want me there.

School B:

Highly ranked program. My advisor says I would be crazy not to accept their offer. Beautiful college town, although I haven't visited it yet. I would be working with some of the top people in my field. We would be far away from family and my husband would move there, but he isn't very excited about it. Cost of living is higher.

So, what should I do??? What would you do??

Only you can make your own decision, but as long as they had notable scholars in my specific field of history, I'd take School A and not think twice about it or worry about the overall ranking of the school, or even the history department in general (unless by "lower ranked" we're talking like #100 vs. School B being #2, but if the other program in the joint degree program is top 5, we're probably not talking too great of a disparity here). It also seems just from reading your post that you're partial to School A. If that's the case, don't let a comment from your adviser (and I don't think he/she is serving you very well by making comments like that) be the only thing that drives you to School B.

Edited March 1, 2011 by datroy

[woolfie]

I think we might need more details, it depends on which schools, and how much of a difference in ranking.

I think that the most important thing, which can affect ranking but not necessarily, is that your specific area and whether or not has prominent scholars in the field. It could be possible that a lower ranked school has a strength in your specific area because of a prof with prominent publications. I'd ask your professor whether or not there are specific profs are good in your field, regardless of the rankings.

That, and I'd need to know the difference in money and the difference in standards of living. I'd suggest comparing both salaries to the current city you live in, using a cost of living calcluator online, and if one is significantly higher well... do you have a lot of debt? Are you someone that has lots of help from parents? Has money never been an issue? Personally, money is a huge issue for me and I have been making very little money for the past three years and I am more swayed by money.

Also, as far as if you like the city or not, have you already recieved an MA? Are we talking about a PhD program? How many years would you be living in the town, etc. I need more info!

[Iknownothing]

lol...yes, I know I'm being evasive.

I'm basically trying to decide between UMich and Penn State. Both of the funding offers are generous and pretty equal, but Penn State has a lower cost of living. I went to visit and LOVED it. I'm visiting UMich in March. At Penn State, I would be getting a dual degree in Women's Studies and that program is ranked #2. AT Penn, I would be a TA right away, whereas at UMich, I wouldn't TA at all for the first year.

Also, these are PhD programs - I am finishing my MA right now.

I think we might need more details, it depends on which schools, and how much of a difference in ranking.

I think that the most important thing, which can affect ranking but not necessarily, is that your specific area and whether or not has prominent scholars in the field. It could be possible that a lower ranked school has a strength in your specific area because of a prof with prominent publications. I'd ask your professor whether or not there are specific profs are good in your field, regardless of the rankings.

That, and I'd need to know the difference in money and the difference in standards of living. I'd suggest comparing both salaries to the current city you live in, using a cost of living calcluator online, and if one is significantly higher well... do you have a lot of debt? Are you someone that has lots of help from parents? Has money never been an issue? Personally, money is a huge issue for me and I have been making very little money for the past three years and I am more swayed by money.

Also, as far as if you like the city or not, have you already recieved an MA? Are we talking about a PhD program? How many years would you be living in the town, etc. I need more info!

[Eigen]

Honestly, I'd go with Penn State... If you feel more comfortable there (and your dual degree is ranked #2) you're not losing so much in reputation... It's not like Penn State is a small, unknown school either.

I think a place that really wants you, and you think you will fit in better means more than rankings. I went to a school that was quite a bit lower ranked, but had really respected and well connected professors, and was a place I fit in much better. I have yet to regret my decision.

But then, take my advice with a grain of salt, I'm in the sciences not the humanities- I don't know how different it is between the two.

[Bactrian]

lol...yes, I know I'm being evasive.

I'm basically trying to decide between UMich and Penn State. Both of the funding offers are generous and pretty equal, but Penn State has a lower cost of living. I went to visit and LOVED it. I'm visiting UMich in March. At Penn State, I would be getting a dual degree in Women's Studies and that program is ranked #2. AT Penn, I would be a TA right away, whereas at UMich, I wouldn't TA at all for the first year.

Also, these are PhD programs - I am finishing my MA right now.

I think it depends on where you see your career going. If you want to focus on women/gender studies (WS primary, history secondary) then PSU might be the way to go; if you want do history from the perspective of women/gender (history primary, WS secondary) then Michigan may be better. The difference in rankings is such that I'd be hard-pressed to recommend Penn State over Michigan if you want to focus on history.

I completely understand with wanting to live in State College though, it's a lovely place (I grew up there and did my undergrad at PSU). Ann Arbor isn't a whole lot bigger so you may be pleasantly surprised when you visit.

[jmacnomad]

OK guys....help! I basically have two schools to choose from - School A is a lower ranked school and School B is a higher ranked school.

School A:

Up-and-coming program, offers a dual degree in which the second degree program is in the top 5 in the nation. Visited the school and the place is awesome! Everyone is collegial and friendly. The town is small ( a plus in my book) and my husband and kids would love to live there. Plus, I'm in driving range from family members. They also have a higher than average placement record. Now, School A, after hearing of my acceptance to school B, upped their offer in order to be competive. Clearly, they want me there.

School B:

Highly ranked program. My advisor says I would be crazy not to accept their offer. Beautiful college town, although I haven't visited it yet. I would be working with some of the top people in my field. We would be far away from family and my husband would move there, but he isn't very excited about it. Cost of living is higher.

So, what should I do??? What would you do??

Location and lifestyle fit was a strong factor in where I applied to schools. My SO's happiness is also very important. It's five years of you AND your family's life! It's okay not to choose a top program in order to accept a program that will fit you better overall.

[datroy]

Iknownothing - if you have time before you have to get back to Penn State, wait until you've visited Michigan, met with faculty, talked to students, etc. But it does seem to me like you're leaning towards PSU.

[TMP]

Wait until you get to Ann Arbor. I think you'll be quite surprised how family-friendly it is.

[Iknownothing]

Thanks everyone for the great advice.

@datroy - My heart is leaning towards PSU right now, but I think that's because I've actually visited the campus. I'm not going to make any serious decisions until I visit UM in late March. Knowing me, I'll probably fall in love with Ann Arbor too...lol

@jmac - the opinion of my SO is also very important. Ultimately we will both have to make a mutual decision.

@Bactrian - the ranking difference is indeed significant! There is a part of me that hopes when I visit UM, I will fall in love with it and the decision will be easy.

[paint]

I think it's great that you had such a wonderful experience at PSU. I would delay making a decision until you've visited Michigan as well. Make sure to talk to students who have families there as well, as their "read" on Ann Arbor will probably be more in line with what you want/need to know.

I assume from your post that you didn't apply to the joint WS/History program at Michigan. I have a friend doing a certificate in WS in addition to a history degree there, so it seems like you can do both, though perhaps in different forms, at UM as well. Whether the faculty match your research interests is another question, however.

I'm assuming your family is east if State College as Ann Arbor and State College aren't that far apart, all things considered. If it matters to your research/family, you may want to think about airport access. Detroit is a big international airport with direct flights to most places so that could ease transportation concerns.

I know people who love State College and love Ann Arbor. I've never been in State College, so I can't compare. Even if it's not your field, you may want to talk to Minnie Sinha at Michigan as she went there from PSU and could offer a faculty perspective on the 2 schools, programs, and locales.

In the end, I wouldn't worry about rank, but about fit in the most capacious sense of the word: program, faculty, location, family, etc. And go with what feels best. But visit both and think about both before making a decision.

ETA: TAing your first year could be good or it could be overwhelming. Assuming you will TA at Michigan, just not your first year, you'll get teaching experience in both places. I'm not sure it matters which years the teaching occurs, as long as it occurs.

Edited March 1, 2011 by paint

[woolfie]

Oh, pssh, go to Penn State. They are still very highly ranked. Yes Michigan is prestigious but you need to go where you will be happy and functional, you need to go where you will do the best work for your abilities and it seems like Penn State is the best fit.

Thought I will add that Ann Arbor is also an awesome, beautiful, college town. Though, either way, I hope you like football...

[XOwlfan]

Such good advice here from all the previous posters. Definitely visit the campus--a campus visit made all the difference in how I perceived a program (I really fell in love). Both Ann Arbor and State College are fantastic places to live and raise a family. If it becomes a real toss-up between the two, I would go where I felt most wanted and would work with the POI that I felt I had the best personal connection with (that relationship can make or break the experience, which you've probably already seen as a graduate student in a masters program). You have a fantastic dilemma--two excellent scenarios. Congrats!

[Henry Hudson]

If I'd gotten an acceptance to Michigan, I'd be in a similar dilemma (regarding schools t least. not towns or families).

I've really hit it off well with my supervisor at Simon Fraser (who is tops in her field), and they've matched my award from another offer. In a weird way I was dreading a UM acceptance, as I'd feel really bad walking away for such good fit for the uncertainties of UM.

So in an odd way, I'm relieved not to have been accepted at UM; I'm happy with my Choice A. But it would have felt good to have UM and SFU bargain over me.

[StrangeLight]

vancouver/burnaby is way nicer than ann arbor anyway.

i miss living there.

[Riotbeard]

I will say from personal experience not having to TA your first year is really nice. You will have more time to devote to classwork and outside research. I would also strongly advise visiting the other school and meeting faculty and students and keep an open mind, you have till april 15, they don't mind if you take that time. I completely changed my choice of school after a campus visit (and I had visited the other school before also). Both schools are solidly ranked so I wouldn't worry too much, but it is hard to imagine passing up a school like michigan (thats just me being honest, but I am single and don't have the family concerns you have, etc.). Also Michigan has some of the best Breweries in the country... At the end of the day though, you have a wealth of riches to choose from, so be excited!

[leopolds]

I've been having the same dilemma at times. I think it's important to consider what might be best in terms of a job placement, which program may have scholars with more connections that can help you get a competitive job. But it's also important to consider your happiness, your emotional needs, and the level of support you can get from your university.

U of M is a really great school, and the folks in the Women and Gender studies dept. are great. Not too familiar with the history dept, but I know the American Studies dept is solid too. And Ann Arbor is a nice college town, but it can get sort of claustrophobic. I think the best thing is to assess the decision after your visit and not get too hung up on the ifs and or buts until you've seen it first hand. Then weigh your options and really think about emotional well being. A lot of folks don't realize it, but your PhD could take anywhere between 5 to 7 years. That's a substantial chunk of your life, it's useless to waste it being unhappy when you may have been perfectly content with an equally solid education elsewhere.

A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet, right?

Best of luck!

[TransnationalHistory]

I'm also in a similar situation, minus the husband and kids. I get the impression Michigan might be a better fit for me academically and it's certainly well regarded, whereas Vanderbilt is still a good program and Nashville and the general area appeals to me cultural and obviously the weather is preferable.

I'm not going to decide anything until I visit, but arguments I've been tossing around in my head:

1. 5-7 years is a long time, but compared to the rest of your life, it's only 5-7 years. It's more important to be able to get a tenure-track in a location you are excited about then to get your PhD in a prime location.

2. It's impossible to know where you'll be happier before you start. I got my BA in the middle of nowhere in upstate NY. Beautiful Fall/Spring, but the winter was rough. But I've never regretted going there. It was a great fit for me, and in the end that mattered more than the climate/location.

3. Michigan is Sept-April. That leaves May-Aug to come up with a good excuse to do funded summer research somewhere. I realize this might be difficult for the OP in regards to family obligations, but the general point is that grad school is more flexible than a 9-5 job with only 2 weeks vacation.

Anyway, I'm going to wait till I visit each place with the hopes that one will just feel right.

[qbtacoma]

1. 5-7 years is a long time, but compared to the rest of your life, it's only 5-7 years. It's more important to be able to get a tenure-track in a location you are excited about then to get your PhD in a prime location.

Yeah, but...this is probably the last chance most of us will ever have to pick where we live. We're going to go where the jobs are, not where we want to be, and there are so few jobs. So while I wouldn't (necessarily) pick one place over another because of the location, I would keep that in mind.

[TransnationalHistory]

Yeah, but...this is probably the last chance most of us will ever have to pick where we live. We're going to go where the jobs are, not where we want to be, and there are so few jobs. So while I wouldn't (necessarily) pick one place over another because of the location, I would keep that in mind.

Right, but my point is you might have a better chance of picking where you get to live if you pick the school with a better placement record. Obviously people from top-10 schools still have limited options, but they at least might get more than just one job offer. Certainly it was a different situation then, but a few of my undergrad professors from top schools shared with me their job market experience, and they all managed to get a few offers after school. Additionally, there is no law that says you have to go into academia. There's no reason not to keep your options open to working for a museum or some other public history position. And certainly it's also possible to get a post-doc fellowship, in which you do get to choose (within reason) where you go next. This is obviously just my opinion, but I think the time commitment is a lot more daunting in writing than in actuality.

[Iknownothing]

Right, but my point is you might have a better chance of picking where you get to live if you pick the school with a better placement record. Obviously people from top-10 schools still have limited options, but they at least might get more than just one job offer. Certainly it was a different situation then, but a few of my undergrad professors from top schools shared with me their job market experience, and they all managed to get a few offers after school. Additionally, there is no law that says you have to go into academia. There's no reason not to keep your options open to working for a museum or some other public history position. And certainly it's also possible to get a post-doc fellowship, in which you do get to choose (within reason) where you go next. This is obviously just my opinion, but I think the time commitment is a lot more daunting in writing than in actuality.

I think this speaks to the variability of rankings and job placement records. I know we are not supposed to overly focus on rankings, but just for a sort of mad, obsessive intellectual exercise, what do all of you think about the various ranking systems and which one is the most accurate? Of course there is US News and World Report, which places UM far above Penn State. PhD.org and the National Resource Council, however, place Penn State's history department only slightly below UM's for 2010. Making things more complicated, this same survey places Penn State above UM when it comes to professional development and placement satisfaction.

Penn State readily admits that they are a program in transition and on the rise. They shot up from 73rd to 23rd according to the NRC. There is part of me that thinks that's kind of exciting.

BTW, thanks to everyone for the great advice!

[TMP]

I think this speaks to the variability of rankings and job placement records. I know we are not supposed to overly focus on rankings, but just for a sort of mad, obsessive intellectual exercise, what do all of you think about the various ranking systems and which one is the most accurate? Of course there is US News and World Report, which places UM far above Penn State. PhD.org and the National Resource Council, however, place Penn State's history department only slightly below UM's for 2010. Making things more complicated, this same survey places Penn State above UM when it comes to professional development and placement satisfaction.

Nada. I strongly believe in the system of "who-knows-who."

[vtstevie]

rankings are fun and all, but really should matter next to nil if you ask me. faculty, funding, location and opinions of people in the know are far more important than what some defunct newsmag has to say.

[TransnationalHistory]

I agree that the rankings need to be taken with a big grain of salt...some of the programs listed in US News' top ten for African history only have two faculty in the field. My comments were more in general. In the case of the OP, both programs that you got into are good programs, and whatever difference in the official rankings is negligible, and certainly overcome (if it even needs to be) with a strong dissertation/faculty connections.

One more thing that has yet to get brought up, but that is really important to consider, is access to archival resources. Many top programs have earned their rank in part to the facilities on or near campus. Northwestern has the largest Africana archive in the country, which no doubt helped them get a #1 ranking for the field of African history this past year. While you can get summer funding to travel to archives, it obviously is a big help if you'll be able to get access to primary sources relevant to your field without leaving campus. I know I'm going to spend a fair amount of time feeling out the libraries at each place, and this going to weigh pretty heavily for me, more than official rank.

[qbtacoma]

Right, but my point is you might have a better chance of picking where you get to live if you pick the school with a better placement record. Obviously people from top-10 schools still have limited options, but they at least might get more than just one job offer. Certainly it was a different situation then, but a few of my undergrad professors from top schools shared with me their job market experience, and they all managed to get a few offers after school. Additionally, there is no law that says you have to go into academia. There's no reason not to keep your options open to working for a museum or some other public history position. And certainly it's also possible to get a post-doc fellowship, in which you do get to choose (within reason) where you go next. This is obviously just my opinion, but I think the time commitment is a lot more daunting in writing than in actuality.

Ah, yes, I see what you are saying, and I agree!