Classmate FORGED letters of rec... What do I do?

[royalt3240]

Wow... this has really spun out of control...

Anyways, the only thing I did was report it to the head of my department. I didn't want to be a "tattle-tell" at other universities because we applied to some of the same places. What I MIGHT do is let the University that accepts her know (anonymously) and let them deal with it. What would REALLY set me over the edge is if she is accepted somewhere that I am denied...

So I guess I'm just playing the waiting game right now.

What are your real motives for reporting her? If its so important to you, why don't you report her to the schools she's applied to now?

You are only responding to your emotional reaction when you are "sent over the edge" because she was accepted to a school that you were not. That is lame. If you're going to report her to schools she's applied to, do it for the right reasons or don't do it all all.

Very lame :roll:

[Hopelessly_Neurotic]

Wow, I read this whole thread!! Now my two cents: I won't even attempt to repeat the very well articulated, compelling arguments for why the OP should report this girl's actions. I just wanted to add that the OP does appear to have questionable integrity/ethics herself -- hence her "feeling" that the Dept Head didn't believe her. Clearly she feels a bit of guilt about this and has come here to rationalize her actions which are not in the service of what's right but rather motivated by the desire to not let this girl get ahead of her. In a way she is feeding off of all the arguments about why reporting her is the morally the right thing to do -- because she knows this is not what motivates her, but something much less honorable.

So, what should she do? She should report her for the right reasons (which she can't, because she doesn't know how to) or forget about it. We'll just have to hope that someday someone with more integrity learns about this girl's scheming (it will happen) and they will have the courage and ethical compass that will make the question of whether or not to report her a no-brainer.

[cardnav]

I read through most of these before I finally decided to stop and give my point of view.

I think we are all in agreement that this is an appalling and unethical action. I would like everyone to remember that beyond forgery, which was previously stated, on all applications it says where you sign your name (either digitally or on paper) that if any of the information submitted is false it is grounds for legal action and removal from the school.

I think the best course of action is to send an anonymous letter to the admissions committees as previously stated. It's fulfills your ethical obligation, while simultaneously allows you to publicly distance yourself from this individual.

[dragynally]

I think some of the people who are saying don't get involved are not trying to deny the unethical situation. I think they are thinking about the OP. What happens to her if she tells? Will that affect her if the girl gets called on it and she says the OP is the liar? And it might be that this girl is just crazy enough to lie about writing her own LORs and just wants attention.

But I respect that this is a personal choice...no matter what

[misterpat]

I still think that she will absolutely get caught, and therefore the OP isn't morally obligated to turn her in since the outcome will be the same either way. Immanuel Kant would probably disagree, but to hell with him.

[misterpat]

Ewwww..."cultural thing"??? Maybe it's a cultural thing to call it a cultural thing. Do you realize how dangerously close you are to violating the very tenous boundary between "just an observation" and racism with that comment? One person's difference of opinion does not sum up the position of that person's entire culture. Nor are you in any position to chastise that person for maintaining it. Not everyone sees this as the uber-heinous event that it's being made out to be. Certainly there's an ethical violation here, but not everyone believes that the scale is appropriate to warrant the kind of responses that have been suggested. This is, in the eyes of many people from many cultures, an infraction much closer to ripping off a mattress tag than say something that might be considered (ahem) hate speech by some. Even more importantly, I don't think anyone here has argued that what this girl has done is not wrong, but the volume of vitriol directed at her is somehow a bit out of whack. The holier-than-thou tone and overall distortion of perception is what many of the people who are advocating the original poster chill a bit are having trouble with. This witch hunt mentality toward a person none of us has ever met and probably never will is really disturbing. How do you even know whether the alleged evil-doer went through with her plan? Don't you think you ought to get her side of the story before amping up your own indignation toward her alleged crime? I think you might feel a little less superior if you were to find out that none of what's been said about her is true. If this situation genuinely bothers you as much as you conveyed in your post you may want to rethink your future. There are lots of screwy, underhanded, unscrupulous people in the world and you will, invariably, end up working with some of them so get over it and as one previous poster suggested, work on yourself.

Btw, you can't be exempt from wrong-doing, you can be exempt from penalty. Get your syntax straight.

Also:

I still cannot believe this person became a member for the sole purpose of making this ridiculous argument.

And she probably felt really good about herself and told her friends about it, too.

Saving the world, one gradute-study internet discussion forum at a time.

[zhukora]

Unethical behavior is unethical behavior. If someone is willing to forge letters to get into grad school how likely is it that that person will 'borrow' other people's work once they are in? Plagerism is a big problem in academia and it affects the status and credibility of all our work. How sad that some of you would think that it is 'tattling' to report such behavior. True, it will make for uncomfortable relations with the forger but really, do you want to be 'friends' with such a person? If she is willing to forge, how real are her grades? Perhaps she cheats, as some of you have intimated that you do. How can you? I guess you feel the ends justify the means but academia is about the process -- the learning, the research, the testing of theory -- and cheating, forgery and plagerism have no place here.

Congratulations for reporting the forger!

I agree with this completely. Integrity is everything in Academia. Can you imagine how badly a grad student attempting to publish, or god forbid, a tenured faculty member, would be reamed by their colleagues if they were outed as impostors who forged their sources, even if they were "smart" or their research ended up being "right" in the end? The grad student would probably be tossed out on their ear and never admitted to an accredited graduate program again (Academia is small, and word gets around), and the faculty member would lose their reputation and credibility entirely, and would be forced to resign.

Her forging letters now only shows what kind of character and moral fiber she has (she'd rather cheat and lie than, what, put on her big girl pants and talk to a faculty member one-on-one?), and if she's willing to do this now, if she gets away with it she'll only be more willing to do it again later when the stakes are higher.

I also second everyone's suggestions to send an anonymous letter to the schools she's applied to asking them to look into this. You may not be able to follow up with the faculty whose names and LORs were forged, and neither will the head of the department if specific names aren't known, but the graduate admissions committees absolutely will be able to, and will do so in a heartbeat if such a serious allegation is raised. I don't know the field this person is applying for admission in, and I don't know what schools, but this kind of unethical behavior really sets my teeth on edge, especially if there's any chance whatsoever the perpetrator might get away with it. Heck, if I had the pertinent information, I might even be willing to do it myself. I've worked with too many people who never would have gotten where they were without an unfair leg-up, and it is one of the most maddening things ever.

[fenderpete]

Wow, when did I say ANYTHING about race... I was referring to "UKGraduate" being, presumably, from the UK. Surely differences exist between Americans and Britons and I thought maybe that might be an indicator of the poster taking a much more casual reaction to the whole situation

Can I weigh in at this point as a Briton? I'd like to think that for anyone, regardless of culture, the one thing that doesn't change is a respect for authorship and an abhorrence of plagiarism. It's completely unethical to use the name of a regarded professor, with a body of work they have spent their entire career building up, to shore up your own application and propose you as an ideal graduate student without their knowledge. It smacks of deception, a lack of integrity and the inability to play by the rules.

If the person who did this is socially awkward, unable to forge relationships with professors etc. that's a great shame - however, it doesn't change the fact that she has forged academic documents in support of receiving a large stipend at a respected university. For those saying 'no big deal' how would you guys feel if your professor got their wife or a McDonald's burger flipper to mark your final exams, then just signed their name at the bottom?

In terms of what to do, try and resolve it personally with the person, but if they've already sent off the recommendations and refuse to come clean themselves, you have no option but to go to the chair of your department. I had to do a similar thing when a professor sent me a swearing email denigrating students last year. I went through all the options (leaving it alone, publishing it front page in the school paper, talking to a professor I knew well and trusted) and after a lot of agonising the only thing you can do is hand it off to the highest authority and trust that they know how to deal with it. They should be able to investigate it with the least fuss and find the speediest and hopefully least messy resolution.

[edit] Congrats to the OP for reporting said person.

[Hopelessly_Neurotic]

Let's hope that the people who are responding who deny this is an ethical issue will gain admittance to a grad program that requires coursework in professional ethics. Hopefully that will open their eyes to the important issues at hand.

While some comments on here are disappointing, I'm really, really impressed with what many have expressed as their stand on the issue.

[timuralp]

If the person who did this is socially awkward, unable to forge relationships with professors etc. that's a great shame - however, it doesn't change the fact that she has forged academic documents in support of receiving a large stipend at a respected university. For those saying 'no big deal' how would you guys feel if your professor got their wife or a McDonald's burger flipper to mark your final exams, then just signed their name at the bottom?

Actually, the said professor's wife may be as equally or even more qualified to grade the final exams. Same goes for the McDonald's employees... But that's beside the point. The point is that your metaphor is ridiculously wrong. Here is why. The signature of the professor at the bottom means he/she takes responsibility for the fairness of the grading. If the exam is graded incorrectly, you can take the exam with the said signature and present it to the department chair (or the dean, if you have to) and raise a stink big enough to seriously damage that professors career. So, yes, I would be fine with that - after all, that signature means I have rights to complain...

It is common practice in certain countries for students to write their own letters and the professors rubber stamp them. Is it wrong? Not really - their signature means they take responsibility for the content. The problem in this particular case is not the content, but that the professors never signed the letters, nor have they seen them. If you're going to be outraged, please be outraged for the right reasons.

Anyway, I still maintain that if these professors are known in the field, the faculty reviewing the letters will ask them at some point. If they are not, well, those letters aren't worth very much. I think it's fair to bring the issue to the department chair, but after that, it's up to his/her discretion, so there is no reason to get worked up about it. Also, why not mention this incident to the professors in the letters? Seems they have the most to lose in this case anyway and nothing to gain. Of course, if you don't know them, that may be an issue. I'm just glad every school and every fellowship I applied for does electronic letters of recommendation and verification becomes pretty easy

[misterpat]

Actually, the said professor's wife may be as equally or even more qualified to grade the final exams. Same goes for the McDonald's employees...

Possible, but not likely. Let's say the exam is on Game theory in Economics. It is not impossible that a McDonalds employee is able to grade the exam, say, if they earned a PhD in Economics but decided flipping burgers was their calling. Or that said McDonalds employee also happens to be a TA in the class. But I think MOST people assumed the person you are criticizing was using the phrase "a McDonald's employee" to mean someone who has never been in the class, and has no qualifications to teach that class/grade an exam.

...also, "even more qualified"? Really? Moreso than the Professor who was teaching the class?

But that's beside the point. The point is that your metaphor is ridiculously wrong.

Actually, I think it's entirely the point, and that the point is valid.

Here is why. The signature of the professor at the bottom means he/she takes responsibility for the fairness of the grading. If the exam is graded incorrectly, you can take the exam with the said signature and present it to the department chair (or the dean, if you have to) and raise a stink big enough to seriously damage that professors career. So, yes, I would be fine with that - after all, that signature means I have rights to complain...

I don't see why this point "qualifies" the McGrader to grade your exam (as you previously stated). It just proves that the Professor doesn't care about his or her job.

Also, you claim to not care that your exam is going to be graded by someone who has no idea what they are doing. I doubt your sincerity.

It is common practice in certain countries for students to write their own letters and the professors rubber stamp them. Is it wrong? Not really - their signature means they take responsibility for the content. The problem in this particular case is not the content, but that the professors never signed the letters, nor have they seen them. If you're going to be outraged, please be outraged for the right reasons.

Well, I'm not sure what countries you are referring to. But in such a system, LORs probably mean a lot less than they do in one where the professors actually write them. If it becomes common practice here for students to write that they are the greatest Philosopher of their generation and have Professor X sign off on it, LORs aren't going to carry weight because ad-coms aren't going to be able to distinguish bullshit from genuine praise.

Anyway, I still maintain that if these professors are known in the field, the faculty reviewing the letters will ask them at some point. If they are not, well, those letters aren't worth very much. I think it's fair to bring the issue to the department chair, but after that, it's up to his/her discretion, so there is no reason to get worked up about it. Also, why not mention this incident to the professors in the letters? Seems they have the most to lose in this case anyway and nothing to gain. Of course, if you don't know them, that may be an issue. I'm just glad every school and every fellowship I applied for does electronic letters of recommendation and verification becomes pretty easy

I finally agree with you on something. If the student forged a bunch of letters to a bunch of schools, at least ONE of the people reading it will catch it. And such issues are taken very seriously; all of the other schools the student applied to will find out.

However, since the OP already reported the incident (which I support), this is a dead issue.

[timuralp]

Possible, but not likely.

I never said "likely". Thank you for arguing about something that doesn't matter and, well, is obvious (can't be certain though; maybe the course at hand is pre-algebra and statistics show most McDonald's employees have completed it).

Really? Moreso than the Professor who was teaching the class?

Sure. Given that both have the same degrees, you still differentiate between instructors. Someone who has taught a course 10 might times will presumably be better qualified to teach it 11th time than someone who's never taught it before or someone with no teaching experience.

Actually, I think it's entirely the point, and that the point is valid.

Wait, the point that it's possible for a McDonald's employee or a professor's wife (by the way, that's a little sexist ) to be equally qualified is the point?! Whoa, ok, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that was the issue at hand.

I don't see why this point "qualifies" the McGrader to grade your exam (as you previously stated). It just proves that the Professor doesn't care about his or her job.

Yea, I was arguing that the analogy was horrendous, not that McDonald's employees should grade exams. It was just an off-hand remark that some of them could be qualified, trying to point out that blanket statements like that should be avoided.

Also, you claim to not care that your exam is going to be graded by someone who has no idea what they are doing. I doubt your sincerity.

And I explained why I wouldn't care. If the exam is graded fairly and correctly, I have no complaints as to how the grading occurred. If the exam was graded incorrectly, I can complain and will get it graded it correctly, hence I don't see an issue here.

Well, I'm not sure what countries you are referring to. But in such a system, LORs probably mean a lot less than they do in one where the professors actually write them. If it becomes common practice here for students to write that they are the greatest Philosopher of their generation and have Professor X sign off on it, LORs aren't going to carry weight because ad-coms aren't going to be able to distinguish bullshit from genuine praise.

First of all, this is obvious and tangential to my point, but to appease you, here is an excerpt from a professor on it:

"There are a few academics at the Indian IITs that are well known in some fields. This means that although letters from your college are required, they may not be very helpful if the person who wrote it is not known in the US. It is very well known in the USA that foreign students often write their own letters and have professors sign them. This makes them mostly useless, unless that person is internationally known and trusted to write their own letters." (http://prisms.cs.umass.edu/mcorner/cs-admissions). He has been on a number of admissions committees, but if you take issue with this, please address him, not me. And yes, they do not carry much weight, as you can tell.

this is a dead issue.

Yes, it is. I was only pointing out that people are getting all up in arms about the wrong things. It's not the fact that she wrote the letter. It's the fact that she forged the signature, which is NOT the same as someone else grading your exam, while the professor still takes the responsibility for it.

P.S. Oftentimes the graders are students who previously took the class and received an acceptable grade. Does that guarantee their qualifications? Hmm...

[ridgey]

Just to go really off topic - it is not just foreign professors who let their students write their own LoRs. Check out backposts here, or over at applyingtograd, or the Chronicle forums, and US professors do it too. Presumably, by signing their name the professor - foreign or American - is agreeing with what was written.

[misterpat]

It's the fact that she forged the signature, which is NOT the same as someone else grading your exam, while the professor still takes the responsibility for it.

P.S. Oftentimes the graders are students who previously took the class and received an acceptable grade. Does that guarantee their qualifications? Hmm...

Touch

[Highfructose]

I registered just so I could respond to this person.

It's a rat race baby. If you think for one minute that you're gonna get ahead in life by following all of the rules and being a nosy tattletale, you are in for a rude awakening.

I can't assure you that the professor you went to speak to will look into this, but I can assure you that you have now been given the title of 'Nosy Knob' by said professor.

Have you ever lied? Cheated on a test?

If not, maybe you should put the book down for a minute and go have a pint...live a little. I can't handle people like you. Social Police. It's not like this girl has a 2.0.

Rant over.

Honestly i agree with this guy. As a fairly extreme introvert, who is awkward as a heart attack, and also applying to grad school, I feel I can offer a little perspective. No, I didn't forge my LOR's, but I can see why someone like myself would.

Establishing a adivisor-advisee relationship as an undergrad with a fucking Ph.D is already a nerve wracking and awkward experience. People who get anxious in simple conversational settings like myself are in for an absolute hurricane of anxiety and feelings of awkwardness and inadequacy etc when having to relate intimately about your ideas etc. Some of us simply handicapped when it comes to relating to other people, and I think there are many people-centric aspects of the academic process that present us extremist-introverts with special challenges that many wouldn't think twice about. So while you think she has found some shortcut to obviate hard work that you had to do, you have absolutely no idea what sort of special obstacles she has encountered that you will never experience.

The fact that this girl is obviously still maintaining a 3.9 leads me to glean that there is a sharp intelligence somewhere in her. And as many people pointed out, forging LOR's only shifts the kinds of anxiety she must be feeling. Sure she skipped having to bite the bullet and forge relationships with her undergrad profs, but the structure of grad school will force her to confront her anxieties at some point- she has only delayed it to when it is more manageable for her. She also has the added worry of getting caught forging and being even being harassed by the dean of her own current department.

Furthermore, this entire game is about how well you can hustle. And we all are professional hustlers by now. We all make pitches about why the cultural meaning of underwater pottery is relevant, or embellish our fit into programs, tiptoe around our depts to avoid our advisors when things are due, etc. When we do shit like this, the real evaluator of whether it was the right thing to do or not I think is whether it works. In this case apparently it won't, cause even if she gets in somewhere, your narking to the dean will probably throw quite a wrench into her ambition.

Her most critical mistake in my eye at least, was her thinking that you were a person she could confide in. As you glibly mention "she just thinks she can trust me". You smug fuck. It's probably because of people like you that she behaves this way in the first place. If the people who she confides her most intimate secretes to, are the first to backstab her - then no wonder she has trouble forging relationships with professors.

I think what YOU did-telling the dean, was absolutely detestable, a real fucking pig move. It seems like a way to take out some of your own insecurities of getting into grad school on someone who is really in the same boat, but in a very predatory way. You sound like a complete shitsack to me.

[IvyHope]

Honestly i agree with this guy. As a fairly extreme introvert, who is awkward as a heart attack, and also applying to grad school, I feel I can offer a little perspective. No, I didn't forge my LOR's, but I can see why someone like myself would.

Establishing a adivisor-advisee relationship as an undergrad with a fucking Ph.D is already a nerve wracking and awkward experience. People who get anxious in simple conversational settings like myself are in for an absolute hurricane of anxiety and feelings of awkwardness and inadequacy etc when having to relate intimately about your ideas etc. Some of us simply handicapped when it comes to relating to other people, and I think there are many people-centric aspects of the academic process that present us extremist-introverts with special challenges that many wouldn't think twice about. So while you think she has found some shortcut to obviate hard work that you had to do, you have absolutely no idea what sort of special obstacles she has encountered that you will never experience.

The fact that this girl is obviously still maintaining a 3.9 leads me to glean that there is a sharp intelligence somewhere in her. And as many people pointed out, forging LOR's only shifts the kinds of anxiety she must be feeling. Sure she skipped having to bite the bullet and forge relationships with her undergrad profs, but the structure of grad school will force her to confront her anxieties at some point- she has only delayed it to when it is more manageable for her. She also has the added worry of getting caught forging and being even being harassed by the dean of her own current department.

Furthermore, this entire game is about how well you can hustle. And we all are professional hustlers by now. We all make pitches about why the cultural meaning of underwater pottery is relevant, or embellish our fit into programs, tiptoe around our depts to avoid our advisors when things are due, etc. When we do shit like this, the real evaluator of whether it was the right thing to do or not I think is whether it works. In this case apparently it won't, cause even if she gets in somewhere, your narking to the dean will probably throw quite a wrench into her ambition.

Her most critical mistake in my eye at least, was her thinking that you were a person she could confide in. As you glibly mention "she just thinks she can trust me". You smug fuck. It's probably because of people like you that she behaves this way in the first place. If the people who she confides her most intimate secretes to, are the first to backstab her - then no wonder she has trouble forging relationships with professors.

I think what YOU did-telling the dean, was absolutely detestable, a real fucking pig move. It seems like a way to take out some of your own insecurities of getting into grad school on someone who is really in the same boat, but in a very predatory way. You sound like a complete shitsack to me.

There's really no room for someone like you (or her) in academia.

First of all, if you can't even muster the courage to ask for a letter of recommendation, what makes you think you are going to survive in academia? Surviving this "rat race" is about far more than being smart. If someone can't even face a professor to ask for a letter of recommendation (usually a positive experience for most), how can they begin to think they can survive in a competitive world that includes teaching (in person), grant proposals, advising graduate students, serving on committees, going up for tenure (a process unbelievably nerve-wracking and public) presenting at conferences...

Would you argue the same for someone who steals your work and puts their name on it? Do they have some justification because of their own shortcomings, in this case, shyness? Is that what you would call "hustling?" What is the point of entering a field in which you can justify such behavior? Why not just steal others work now and take credit for it? For that matter, why not just forge a diploma from the institution of your choice? What is the point of ethics? Or hard work?

She doesn't behave in that manner because of honest people. She behaves in that manner because she has a flawed personality and no conscience. You are incorrect to assume that we all cheat on tests and hide in the shadows from our advisors when things are due- the majority of us on this site (and in academia) own up to our responsibilities and do the work that is required of us. It's because we do the work that we don't have to slime around forging letters of recommendation.

For someone who claims to be so shy, you certainly have no problem hiding behind the anonymity of the net and calling people horrific names, people that could someday be your colleagues. I can say with certainty that I hope I never have the ill fortune of becoming your colleague, or the girl who is in question. I'm better than that. The OP did nothing remotely resembling "backstabbing." She did what she should have done, acted responsibly and with integrity. You might try some of that.

If you have trouble with these things that you mention (initiating relationships with profs, getting work in on time, whether it's right or wrong to forge a letter) I strongly urge you to reconsider entering academia. It just doesn't sound like an appropriate place for you.

[jackassjim]

Please, guys and gals, tone down the rhetoric. This is getting unpleasant.

[misterpat]

Honestly i agree with this guy. As a fairly extreme introvert, who is awkward as a heart attack, and also applying to grad school, I feel I can offer a little perspective. No, I didn't forge my LOR's, but I can see why someone like myself would.

Establishing a adivisor-advisee relationship as an undergrad with a fucking Ph.D is already a nerve wracking and awkward experience. People who get anxious in simple conversational settings like myself are in for an absolute hurricane of anxiety and feelings of awkwardness and inadequacy etc when having to relate intimately about your ideas etc. Some of us simply handicapped when it comes to relating to other people, and I think there are many people-centric aspects of the academic process that present us extremist-introverts with special challenges that many wouldn't think twice about. So while you think she has found some shortcut to obviate hard work that you had to do, you have absolutely no idea what sort of special obstacles she has encountered that you will never experience.

The fact that this girl is obviously still maintaining a 3.9 leads me to glean that there is a sharp intelligence somewhere in her. And as many people pointed out, forging LOR's only shifts the kinds of anxiety she must be feeling. Sure she skipped having to bite the bullet and forge relationships with her undergrad profs, but the structure of grad school will force her to confront her anxieties at some point- she has only delayed it to when it is more manageable for her. She also has the added worry of getting caught forging and being even being harassed by the dean of her own current department.

Furthermore, this entire game is about how well you can hustle. And we all are professional hustlers by now. We all make pitches about why the cultural meaning of underwater pottery is relevant, or embellish our fit into programs, tiptoe around our depts to avoid our advisors when things are due, etc. When we do shit like this, the real evaluator of whether it was the right thing to do or not I think is whether it works. In this case apparently it won't, cause even if she gets in somewhere, your narking to the dean will probably throw quite a wrench into her ambition.

Her most critical mistake in my eye at least, was her thinking that you were a person she could confide in. As you glibly mention "she just thinks she can trust me". You smug fuck. It's probably because of people like you that she behaves this way in the first place. If the people who she confides her most intimate secretes to, are the first to backstab her - then no wonder she has trouble forging relationships with professors.

I think what YOU did-telling the dean, was absolutely detestable, a real fucking pig move. It seems like a way to take out some of your own insecurities of getting into grad school on someone who is really in the same boat, but in a very predatory way. You sound like a complete shitsack to me.

:roll:

[Highfructose]

all right, all right. I didn't mean to be 'unpleasant'. Just wanted to unsettle the dominate perspective here, sheesh.

[Inspekt]

What that girl did was completely wrong. This isn't the same thing as a white lie to your mom or girlfriend when she asks, "do I look fat in this dress?" This person is lying about her relationships with her professors, her ability to do research, her potential as a scholar (regardless of her grades...which she very well may have cheated on too) and their seal of approval on her work. She is cheating the system to get ahead. I dunno where you are from, but on my block cheating and lying in that context and to that extent are wrong no matter what.

As for being too socially awkward to ask for a letter - good luck getting through the rest of your life. That's one of the most ludicrous excuses I've ever heard. I was pretty introverted and socially awkward as an undergrad but I did my best to develop my personal skills - without having to lie to anyone or make excuses to justify my actions. You want to know what it takes? Practice. Go and talk to a professor during office hours. Practice. Join a student group and make friends. Practice. Yes, even the most socially awkward person can develop a personality and the ability to build rapport with someone. You have to take initiative to practice. Hell yeah I was uncomfortable doing it, but that's what growing up is all about.

As for what to do, that's a whole other can of worms. I supposed I would have shared this with one of my mentors I trust and picked their brain. Condoning her actions is not the appropriate course to take.

Finally, I doubt you all have my good looks and magnetic charm, so you better practice. :wink:

[IvyHope]

Finally, I doubt you all have my good looks and magnetic charm, so you better practice. :wink:

Sniff sniff sniff...do I smell something in here?? ;-)

[Tinyboss]

Let's keep some perspective here: this girl put someone else's name to her own words. That's worse than plagiarism. It's probably an actual crime, and certainly has no place in academia.

The methods might be debatable, but the OP absolutely did the right thing turning her in.

For those of you who say it's a rat race and you do what you've gotta do to get ahead: maybe if more people would stand up for what's right like the OP did, it wouldn't be that way.

[zhukora]

Her most critical mistake in my eye at least, was her thinking that you were a person she could confide in. As you glibly mention "she just thinks she can trust me". You smug fuck. It's probably because of people like you that she behaves this way in the first place. If the people who she confides her most intimate secretes to, are the first to backstab her - then no wonder she has trouble forging relationships with professors.

No, her most critical mistake was thinking she could cheat the system by not doing the same hard work everyone else did. The ranks of people who obtain graduate degrees are small for a reason--it's HARD, it's SCARY, and it's UNBELIEVABLY stressful for every single person who does it. Not one person has ever gone through the graduate application process like it was a cakewalk. We all question ourselves, our abilities, our past and future work, and we force ourselves to interact with people who are frightening for those as inexperienced as ourselves, whether it's our own advisors and faculty, potential advisors at our hopeful future schoools, etc. The difference here is that those of us who are or will be successful have managed to force ourselves to belly up to the bar and overcome our apprehensions. Intelligence and ability to write well or research well are not enough to succeed in academia. Sheer intestinal fortitude is needed too, and in spades.

I think what YOU did-telling the dean, was absolutely detestable, a real fucking pig move. It seems like a way to take out some of your own insecurities of getting into grad school on someone who is really in the same boat, but in a very predatory way. You sound like a complete shitsack to me.

Oh come ON. None of this bawwing about "you big meanie this" or "you big meanie that". Sure the OP probably has some insecurities, but that has nothing to do with what's going on here. I see plenty of you projecting your own insecurities on the OP, and I can only conclude you're so vehemently against her because you're afraid someone just like her might out you for whatever underhanded things you might have done to get around your social paralysis. But again, that is neither here nor there. Telling the Dean was not a "fucking pig move" of any kind. It was honest, it was upstanding, and it was fair. Sure, the person who forged her letters may end up losing out on graduate admissions because of it, but think of how many people might have been elbowed out of a chance at admissions by the seriously unethical actions of this person had she succeeded in fooling everyone? Where's your sympathy for them? They're probably just as intelligent, just as qualified (if not moreso) but they're willing to play by the rules, and there is no call to deprive them of what could rightfully be theirs just because there is one person who couldn't hack it and thought she'd cheat her way in instead. Those who do this the ethical way are FAR more deserving of that admit spot, and if nothing else, the OP was acting in their defense...people whom she doesn't know and may never meet. There is nothing predatory about that.

Really, who would want to find out they were bumped to the waiting list or rejected because someone defrauded their way into the program? If anyone, the person with the fraudulent application sounds like the "predatory" "complete shitsack" to me.

[holomorph]

The "dominant perspective" in this thread is the ethical one: it's wrong to lie, cheat, and steal, and someone who does the foregoing ought to be persona non grata in academia.

I'm pretty introverted too. I was scared of the thought of asking professors for recommendations. But I did it anyway. My introversion was and is a barrier to overcome, not a handicap that confers upon me the right to flout common standards of decency and honesty.

IvyHope, your refutation was excellent.

[zhukora]

The "dominant perspective" in this thread is the ethical one: it's wrong to lie, cheat, and steal, and someone who does the foregoing ought to be persona non grata in academia.

I'm pretty introverted too. I was scared of the thought of asking professors for recommendations. But I did it anyway. My introversion was and is a barrier to overcome, not a handicap that confers upon me the right to flout common standards of decency and honesty.

IvyHope, your refutation was excellent.

Agreed all round. Honestly, if any of you found out that a friend or family member had committed a more commonly-acknowledged "serious" crime (by which I mean fraud and false impersonation are crimes, for all that some people on this thread would prefer to ignore that), like had been the perpetrator of a hit-and-run car accident, or had stolen money from elderly people in some kind of scam... would you not report it just because you were afraid of being a tattle-tale, a narc, or breaking your friend's "trust"? In many cases you could be considered an accessory, or could be convicted of aiding and abetting or obstruction of justice. Reporting this person's wrongdoing was the only way to do right here.