Advisors: what are they for?

[Strangefox]

Ok, I know what they are for, in very general terms. But I would like to hear details. I studied in a university outside of the US and I had several advisors. However, I am not sure that this mentoring thing works the same in my country and in the United States.

Obviously, I can (must?) consult my advisor about courses I want to take. I will talk with them about my research. What else? If am writing an article for a conference, can I ask my advisor to have a look at it? Not to co-author it, I mean, but just to tell their opinion, point out flaws I have not noticed. Can I discuss the job market with my advisor, talk about future oportunities, conferences, etc?

I have talked with grad students in my program, they all said that my advisor is a very nice and helpful person, so I am sure I will be able to approach them with my questions. But I don't want to be annoying, asking them about something they are not supposed to help me with...

[eco_env]

All of the above. In some subjects/situtations your advisor will expect to be a co-author on your paper. In the sciences, they are mostly there to advise you on research, including communicating it in various formats.

[eklavya]

Is this actually a topic?

I am shocked you dared to ask this question. Aren't you the one who started a thread on furby?

ETA: here's the thread: http://forum.thegradcafe.com/topic/22886-post-your-worst-purchase-ever-in-this-topic/

Edited July 3, 2011 by bhikhaari

[hejduk]

Ok, I know what they are for, in very general terms. But I would like to hear details. I studied in a university outside of the US and I had several advisors. However, I am not sure that this mentoring thing works the same in my country and in the United States.

Obviously, I can (must?) consult my advisor about courses I want to take. I will talk with them about my research. What else? If am writing an article for a conference, can I ask my advisor to have a look at it? Not to co-author it, I mean, but just to tell their opinion, point out flaws I have not noticed. Can I discuss the job market with my advisor, talk about future oportunities, conferences, etc?

I have talked with grad students in my program, they all said that my advisor is a very nice and helpful person, so I am sure I will be able to approach them with my questions. But I don't want to be annoying, asking them about something they are not supposed to help me with...

Strangefox: As I know you're in Communication like me, I think it's a great topic to start and especially coming from outside the US, it's important to know what to expect going into, what I'm assuming, is doctoral studies?

I'm looking forward to other's insights as well, as I'm thinking there might even be a difference between one's MA/MS advisor, and PhD advisor?

Disregard the post about this even being a topic. It's quite a relevant topic.

[Strangefox]

Strangefox: As I know you're in Communication like me, I think it's a great topic to start and especially coming from outside the US, it's important to know what to expect going into, what I'm assuming, is doctoral studies?

I'm looking forward to other's insights as well, as I'm thinking there might even be a difference between one's MA/MS advisor, and PhD advisor?

Disregard the post about this even being a topic. It's quite a relevant topic.

Thank you Hejduk!

Yep, I am talking about PhD advisors and I am mostly interested in their role in social sciences. But it would be also interesting to know the difference between social sciences, humanities and exact sciences in this respect.

[Strangefox]

I am shocked you dared to ask this question. Aren't you the one who started a thread on furby?

ETA: here's the thread: http://forum.thegrad...-in-this-topic/

It's obviously just a troll. He/she has posted similar responses to some other threads.

[blackshirt]

Well, I'm in the humanities and my department doesn't really assign advisors so things work a little differently for me.

However, my experience might be of use to you anyway. I went to a (large) top public university for undergrad (with two majors; one in the humanities and one in the social sciences) and noticed that my professors weren't able to devote a whole lot of time to their grad students. Thus, the grad students were more on their own for things like editing papers to be published and tackling the job market. I'm about to enter a smaller private school for my PhD, and from what I can gather, things will be quite different there; the professors are more attentive because they can afford to be.

I think everything you listed, Strangefox, is fair game for advisors. Obviously s/he won't be able to spend large amounts of time on each one of your papers for submission, nor hold your hand through the job acquiring process, but don't feel shy asking for help on any of the topics you listed. I also think that, over time, you'll get to know your advisor well enough that you will know what is and isn't "too much" intuitively. Some people form very close personal relationships with their advisors; others just have a good professional one. It will depend on your particular situation!

[Strangefox]

Well, I'm in the humanities and my department doesn't really assign advisors so things work a little differently for me.

However, my experience might be of use to you anyway. I went to a (large) top public university for undergrad (with two majors; one in the humanities and one in the social sciences) and noticed that my professors weren't able to devote a whole lot of time to their grad students. Thus, the grad students were more on their own for things like editing papers to be published and tackling the job market. I'm about to enter a smaller private school for my PhD, and from what I can gather, things will be quite different there; the professors are more attentive because they can afford to be.

I think everything you listed, Strangefox, is fair game for advisors. Obviously s/he won't be able to spend large amounts of time on each one of your papers for submission, nor hold your hand through the job acquiring process, but don't feel shy asking for help on any of the topics you listed. I also think that, over time, you'll get to know your advisor well enough that you will know what is and isn't "too much" intuitively. Some people form very close personal relationships with their advisors; others just have a good professional one. It will depend on your particular situation!

Thanks for the reply!

[rising_star]

Ok, I know what they are for, in very general terms. But I would like to hear details. I studied in a university outside of the US and I had several advisors. However, I am not sure that this mentoring thing works the same in my country and in the United States.

Obviously, I can (must?) consult my advisor about courses I want to take. I will talk with them about my research. What else? If am writing an article for a conference, can I ask my advisor to have a look at it? Not to co-author it, I mean, but just to tell their opinion, point out flaws I have not noticed. Can I discuss the job market with my advisor, talk about future oportunities, conferences, etc?

I have talked with grad students in my program, they all said that my advisor is a very nice and helpful person, so I am sure I will be able to approach them with my questions. But I don't want to be annoying, asking them about something they are not supposed to help me with...

Consulting about classes is a reasonable idea, but make sure you also consult with the DGS and your handbook so that you understand what's required of you in terms of coursework. You could definitely ask your advisor to look over conference papers before you present them, though this is something that I've never done.

Job market is an area where you DEFINITELY consult with your advisor. S/he will be writing letters of reference that will get read and can help you with understanding what particular universities and departments are looking for, in eliminating places that won't be a good fit for you, etc. Fellowship and grant applications are another area where you'll want your advisor's feedback on your materials before you submit them.

Admittedly, almost everything above is also something that you'll want to get feedback on from your colleagues/peers/advisor's other students. I pretty much always run my stuff by one of my advisor's students before sending it to him, just to ensure it's in the best possible shape when he sees it.

Keep in mind that different advisors have different styles. Some won't let their students present a conference paper without having read the paper and seeing the presentation. Others might not care what you present and not even attend your conference talks.

[Strangefox]

Admittedly, almost everything above is also something that you'll want to get feedback on from your colleagues/peers/advisor's other students. I pretty much always run my stuff by one of my advisor's students before sending it to him, just to ensure it's in the best possible shape when he sees it.

That's a great idea, thanks!

[starmaker]

In the natural sciences and engineering, a PhD student is like an apprentice to their advisor. The advisor provides more general mentoring, but also teaches them (or has a postdoc or senior grad student teach them) things like lab techniques and good paper-writing skills. The advisor will expect to review the student's journal/conference submissions, suggest revisions, and eventually give the green light, if the work is coming out of the advisor's lab. Commonly, in the early part of the student's career, the student is a co-author on a paper or two of the advisor's, and then moves into a first-authorship role (and perhaps a sole-authorship role) as he or she gains skills and the ability to work independently. The student's dissertation research will probably be related to other research being conducted in the advisor's lab. If the advisor likes the student, he or she can and often does use his or her connections to help the student get a job after graduation.

I think this model holds in some of the social sciences (psych?) as well, but I'm not sure if it holds for all of them.

[Eigen]

In the sciences (as mentioned above) it's more a master/apprentice or boss/worker relationship.

While a good advisor leaves a lot of the research direction up to the graduate students, they are the one who gets the final say on a projects direction or continued existence. They decide where money gets spent, and how much, and at least in my discipline, they do most of the work on deciding when and where to submit papers or who should attend conferences, and what they should talk on.

For Chemistry (at least), the PIs are all the last author on every paper that comes out of their lab, and I wouldn't think of giving a presentation without having them OK it first. Before any of us give presentations anywhere, we run it by our PI/the whole group as a practice session- sometimes we have to redo it if they don't think it's up to par.

The PIs connections are usually what helps you get post-doctoral positions and job interviews, or at least help you find where you can apply, and look over your application materials. They find/help you get funding, approve what courses you can/can't take, etc.

For most of the sciences, it's their reputation as much as yours that rides on the quality of your work, so I think our PIs are much more tied up in their students academic lives than in other areas. I think the concept of a close knit "research group" is also unique to the sciences, and it acts very much like a small company- you get funding together, you work together, socialize together, with distinct levels of management (undergrads, grad students, post-docs, PI).

[runonsentence]

I don't think all of my experience is necessarily indicative of the humanities as a whole, but here it is.

I'm at a large public university with a medium-sized department, and I'm in a small subfield within that department. As a consequence, my advisor doesn't have a lot of advisees to keep track of, and is able to devote a large amount of time to mentoring me. It's not unusual for her to reach out to me occasionally and ask how things are going with this or that. On a personal level, she's someone I can confide in if I'm feeling overwhelmed or unsure how to proceed, and she's there to celebrate my successes as well. I occasionally socialize with her and other grads outside the department (on runs/races or happy hours) or babysit her kids.

My advisor is there when I have questions about the profession, to give me advice on coursework, and to look over drafts of proposals, applications, grants, etc. She doesn't require me to run things by her, but I usually seek her out before submitting things on my own so that I have her feedback.

When I draw closer to exams, my advisor will guide me through that process and help me draw up (and approve on changes I suggest to) my exam list.

[Chicajojobe]

It's pretty much a given that you will talk to your advisor about what classes you need to take, your research, your progress on toward the various milestones like qualifying exams, your dissertation, etc. That also includes opportunities along the way like conferences.

I'm in hard sciences, so I don't know if it's normal to do a post-doctoral fellowship in your field or to go right into assistant professorship, but either way your advisor will probably be your number one reference when applying for these things.

I wouldn't worry too much about being annoying when coming to them with professional concerns because it's actually expected when you're a PhD student, in any field, that you will have a close relationship with your advisor. Being a graduate student and being in academia is sort of like marrying into a family. When you start out you have your advisor who is like your 'professional' parent, their influence will most likely stay with you your entire career, at the very least they'll impact the course of it.

For this reason, it isn't even uncommon, to discuss day to day life, hobbies, outside interests with your advisor if the two of you have any of these in common. However, this all the depends on what kind of relationship you and your advisor have. Some are more strictly professional, and others also develop into friendships. That kind of thing you just have to feel out.

Since advisors have such an influence on your career, it's important to find the right one. So if your advisor gives you the impression he or she finds professional questions like about conferences, etc. annoying and really doesn't want to help you, then it's time to consider finding a new one.

[natsteel]

I am in the Humanities at a large, private institution. And though I've only been here for 2 1/2 months, I've already discussed all those things you mentioned with my advisor. We are getting along really well and, while I know others don't have such ideal mentoring situations with their advisors, I nevertheless think this should be the standard. If your advisor does not have the time to look over your conference paper, discuss your research, the field in general, job prospects, and the like, then I would think your advisor is ignoring their responsibilities to their graduate students. All that said, I've been fortunate enough to have fantastic mentors all the way through undergrad and now in graduate school. So perhaps my opinion is biased.

But I wouldn't hesitate to engage your advisor concerning the things you mentioned. To a half-decent advisor, they would not consider those things as annoying coming from one of their own graduate students. Or, at leas, they shouldn't...

[Sigaba]

A lesson that I learned the hard way (through personal experience and an abysmal lack of situational awareness) and for which I pay every day.

There is a huge difference between an advisor and a mentor. I strongly recommend to all that you know what those differences are, that you know your tolerance levels when your PoI is disinterested in performing the functions of either, and that you have a plan B if things start to get especially...funky.

[ktel]

A lesson that I learned the hard way (through personal experience and an abysmal lack of situational awareness) and for which I pay every day.

There is a huge difference between an advisor and a mentor. I strongly recommend to all that you know what those differences are, that you know your tolerance levels when your PoI is disinterested in performing the functions of either, and that you have a plan B if things start to get especially...funky.

Absolutely. I distinctly remember a presentation on how to become an engineering professional, suggesting you obtain a mentor who is NOT in charge of your work in any way. This applies in the work place, but can apply to grad school as well.

[Sigaba]

Absolutely. I distinctly remember a presentation on how to become an engineering professional, suggesting you obtain a mentor who is NOT in charge of your work in any way. This applies in the work place, but can apply to grad school as well.

ktel--

Where were you when I could have made the most use out of this guidance!? (But I'm not bitter.)

[juilletmercredi]

It largely depends on the relationship you develop with your advisor. I have two - one in each of my departments. My primary advisor:

-Minimally advises me on courses. He is not fully aware of the coursework requirements of the program, so basically I tell him what I'm planning to take and what requirements they fulfill, and he says "good." Occasionally he's helped me decide between two courses.

-Advises me on more advanced pieces of the PhD, like studying for my qualifying exams. He served as one of the supervisors of my reading lists, graded my exam, and will serve on my oral exam committee along with one other professor.

-He will be my dissertation sponsor, and has already begun guiding me on the road towards my dissertation. He listens to my ideas, helps me develop them, helps me formulate aims and research questions, provides general guidance about where to find sources, etc. I am expecting that he will read my drafts and give comments on them, as well as review my data analysis to a certain extent.

-Coauthors papers with me.

-Writes grants with me. He is the PI, but we both have done substantial work on the composition of the grant, although he does the majority of the writing unless it's my idea.

-Recommends me for funding, and I am assuming he will also recommend me for jobs.

-Helps me network by reaching out to his contacts, especially if I have expressed an interest in something that they are doing.

-Discusses job opportunities and the market with me, especially now since I am a fourth year and will be looking for post-docs and/or jobs in the fall.

-Helps me prepare conference presentations and papers.

My secondary advisor does some of these things. He has offered guidance on coursework and exam requirements; he has proofread conference and publishable papers; he has recommended me for funding when I have applied for fellowships. He's also gone to bat for me when the financial aid office tried to screw me out of my TA compensation (long story). I have little doubt that when I am on the market, he will recommend me and reach into his networks to help me. His networks are more extensive than my primary advisor's, as he is a full professor who is well-known in our field (to the point that I go to professional conferences and people know the research I am doing based on his name). My primary advisor is an untenured assistant professor who, while wonderful, obviously does not have the reach.

So yes, I think your advisor can help you by looking at your article. I would certainly ask him.

I'm in the social sciences, BTW.

EDIT: Given the statement that "there is a huge difference between a mentor and an advisor," I agree. I also say that in certain circumstances, it's possible to have an advisor also serve as a mentor. My primary advisor does this; my secondary advisor, not so much. It's really based on demeanor, comfort level, and other more nebulous factors. With my primary advisor, I could share my difficulties in the program, asked for resource help when I needed it, and very briefly discussed my depression. I do none of those things with my secondary advisor; our relationship is simply different. And I also have a mentor who is not my advisor at all, for whom I can go to to speak more deeply about issues I am confronting.

Edited November 20, 2011 by juilletmercredi

[natsteel]

I think the statement about advisors and mentors being different is a great point. When I was an undergrad, I had three mentors, one of whom was my advisor. Now, in grad school, my advisor is also my mentor. Maybe it's my field (history), my program, or my previous experience, but it seems expected by most that your advisor will mentor you in many of the ways which juillet described. That said, that is something of an ideal expectation as I do know a few people in my department who have less than enthusiastic advisors.

[eco_env]

So how do you get enough contact with someone who isn't your advisor to make them become a mentor? how do you choose someone to be a mentor?

[Genomic Repairman]

Usually its a professor who you have had for class or met in seminar. The relationship usually begins with something as innocuous as going to ask them a question about research or class and grows from there. But as for officially being a mentor, you ask them to serve on your committee because you find their expertise to be relevant to your research. Just ask them, they are usually willing.

[StrangeLight]

i'm in a humanities field that resides in the social sciences school at my university. yeah, i know...

my advisor guides me through research, grant writing, and the job market. i've also TA'd for her, so she's given me some advice as a teacher as well, but if i hadn't been her TA, i wouldn't have expected us to have conversations about pedagogy. for conferences, i just submit to those on my own and i've never asked her to read the conference paper, although i know some other students in my program have asked their advisors to do so. when i presented at a conference in town, she came to see me (even though i purposefully didn't tell her i was presenting because i didn't want the added pressure). she gave me some really great feedback on my talk that has definitely changed the way i approach presentations.

for coursework, we're required to get our advisors to sign off on our schedules before we can actually register for classes, but even then, she leaves that up to me. i know the graduate handbook's course requirements inside and out, so i'm the one that makes sure i'm taking what i need to be taking. i'm the one that checks the course offerings in other departments every semester. i just bring her a list of what i'm thinking of taking and she says "sounds good." many of my colleagues don't do the legwork of finding classes themselves and they miss crucial coursework requirements for their degrees and end up pretty screwed. they lament that my advisor is so much better than theirs at knowing what classes i need, but it's me that knows, not her. as far as i'm concerned, if there's something i could find the answer to myself (like what courses i need, or when the deadline for the fellowship is), i don't ask her, i find out for myself. my advisor is there to provide intellectual and professional guidance, not to make sure i enrolled in the right section of my french class.