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Competition and Jealousy


TheSquirrel

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Hi all,

I've been having a problem with a colleague (a PhD student) lately. We did our MA together, and then he went and did a second MA in the States, while I worked and then got accepted into a PhD program. He then graduated with his second MA and was waitlisted at (and eventually admitted to) my university. Same department. I'm a year ahead of him in the program. We're taking a research methods course together this semester, though.

We've been really good friends for several years.

In the research methods class we are taking together, he is not doing very well. He has been getting B's, whereas I have been getting A- (with a prof who is known as being the hardest marker in the whole department). A mutual friend (with whom we did our MA, and who is also doing her PhD in the same department/uni), is getting a B+ so far.

We had a mid-term exam recently, and he got a 76% compared to my other friend's 78% and my 82%. Bottom line, not a huge difference. But he got really angry at both of us after we got our mid-terms back, and accused us of making him feel stupid (yes, he told us that), and told us to keep our distance from him. He also kept telling us that he did his MA at an ivy league school and that *our* (now also his??!) university is not even ranked in the top 100, so according to him, the fact that he is doing poorly in class discussions, etc (he always says irrelevant things and the prof stops him) indicates that there is something wrong with the program/department, and not that he is having a hard time understanding the material.... I guess he is having some sort of impostor syndrome, but I've had it many times too, and have not had such outbursts of rage and jealousy. Also, the things he said (about ivy league, etc) makes me think that his ego got taken down a notch by the fact that I did better than an ivy league uni alumnus.

Have you experienced this sort of (childish) behavior at all? I always thought of graduate students as more mature and interested in academic collaboration (and at least not as explicit about competition and jealousy as this guy).

Also, he has been on talking terms with everyone else from that class, even though most of them got better grades than him, too..... the problem is that his behavior is making the department a rather unwelcome/stressful place for me. To add to the problem, he shares an office with me. He hasn't been using the office lately (in order to avoid me), but I don't feel safe at all (he went nuts in the office the day we got the exams back, but I wasn't around when that happened -- he tore down some comics I had taped to the wall and tried to flip over a big drawer, etc). I haven't talked to the department folks about this, because I thought I'd give him a chance to get back on talking terms with me. Plus, I don't really want to tell the graduate program director about personal conflicts between me and other people (unless it evolves into harassment).

What do you think I should do about the situation? Just completely ignore it? Is this the way grad school usually is? My MA experience was totally unlike what I experienced with this guy. So I'm utterly confused and unsure about how to deal with this problem.

Edited by TheSquirrel
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It is understandable that you are frustrated by your "friend's" actions (I am not sure how close you really are; I've learned that people who turn on you quickly are not true friends). This person is probably doubting his abilities. Education must be important to him (as evidenced by two MAs and a Ph.D.), and perhaps for the first time, he feels like he's failing. This is certainly not carte blanche to lash out at you, though. He needs to learn how to better cope with stress and accept that he has to adapt to a more challenging environment.

I am not yet in grad school, so I don't know how common this is. However, at my undergrad, it is an unspoken rule to not discuss grades. No one should know how you are doing unless you tell them, and you only tell the people you can trust to be genuinely happy for you if you are doing well or who can commiserate instead of judging when you're not doing as well as you would like. If someone asks, you just say "I don't discuss grades." That's how most people deal with the competition.

If you are comfortable, perhaps you and your friend can meet in a neutral, populated location to discuss the pattern you have noticed. Explain how uncomfortable and hurt you felt when he said that you were trying to make him feel stupid and say that that was never your intention. Explain that you understand how stressful the transition can be and that you/certain TAs and professors can be helpful in working through the material, if he is someone you still want in your circle. Also make it clear that you will not brook his b.s.

Edited by Lox26
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The Squirrel--

The definition of "harassment" might very well include the behaviors your classmate is exhibiting. That is, it is harassment if one feels harassed. (Or, as I overheard one city employee tell another outside of about a training session earlier today "You can't say anything to anyone.") Given that you feel you have a problem with this guy, that he's destroyed your property, and he's brought violence into your work place, I strongly urge you to not ignore the situation. If you don't feel comfortable trying to talk it out in a public place over hot wings, and if you don't want to go to the DGS, consider taking a "lateral step" and talking to someone in the university's administration. Do not delay.

I also recommend that you avoid characterizations of such behavior as "childish" and "immature." Eventually, every graduate student gets to take a long hard look in the mirror. For your erstwhile friend, that time is now. For you, it may be as qualifying exams approach. Or when you get unfavorable teaching evaluations from undergraduates. By no means am I suggesting that you give the guy a "pass" or to let bygones be bygones.

I'm merely recommending that one approach these kinds of situations with empathy and without name calling. This way, if your apple cart gets up ended, and/or you need to be "talked off the ledge," you'll have set a precedent for how others should treat you in a time of crisis.

HTH.

Edited by Sigaba
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Squirrel,

Let me tell you, first, THANK YOU. I've been dealing with a VERY similar situation for a while now, and everyone I've talked to about it says this kind of stuff shouldn't be happening in grad school. And yes, it is ridiculous and unnecessarily stressful.

First off, I'm the youngest person in our grad program. I went to an average state university for my undergrad, but I double majored in English and Philosophy (great with Lit and great with theory). The problem person for me is an older woman (early thirties) who I was friends with, who very similarly, began accusing me of making her look dumb in front of our professors. She went to a large, very prestigious state university but she majored in History. She made all Cs first semester and had to rewrite all her papers. Now, she makes Bs on all her work because the professors don't want to give her Cs because she claims she doesn't have time to juggle her family and rewriting papers plus the regular work assigned. She claims that the professors don't like her, and that's why she gets B's. Her comments in class are usually along the lines of, "I had a experience once when..." or "Well I know in my family we..." instead of being RELEVANT to the text or theory we are talking about in class.

Besides the fact she is less than stellar, she got a major attitude when I went to my first conference last spring. She didn't even submit a proposal, and she was acting like it was someone else's fault she wasn't going. I had a presentation in one of our classes the week after the conference, and she began to attack my work by saying it didn't make sense, that my thesis was wrong, and she even began shouting over the professor while the professor was trying to provide me actual constructive criticism. Then, she pulled out something claiming one of the journals I pulled one of my articles from for the presentation wasn't peer reviewed, and DEMANDED to know my grade deduction. The professor was like, "Um no it's peer reviewed." Sure enough, it wasn't, but the professor was like who cares.

That student now sits by the professor and when I had a paper to cover earlier this semester, she started mumbling under her breath to where anyone could barely hear it that I was TAKING her ideas, in a paper I wrote at home, I was taking the idea she wrote in her paper. She whined that I was talking about all the things she was talking about, and the professor finally told her "this isn't a competition" while I just sat there and was like "really? is this really still happening?"

I had a paper reviewed in class last night, and she said NOTHING constructive criticism wise in class. She did not participate. She sat there looking at her papers and that's it. She made a comment about Halloween and about some Italian movie that had nothing to do with my paper. She's also using the professors article for class discussion in two weeks, because there is nothing under the sun supposedly written on the subject besides our professors article.

And, back when I was preparing for the conference in spring, she sent me nasty text messages on my cellphone. I finally, at the end of the summer, told a different professor (our grad advisor) about this situation, and how it was flat out ridiculous. I told her that I knew if I handed my phone over, she would be kicked out of the school. My advisor just sat there wide eyed, and said she knew something was going on, but didn't know it was like that. I told her this was stupid and childish, and she agreed.

So, In short, yes, I have a jealous, competitive student who takes everything personally. She's insane and pretends to be hurt by the professors criticism, but then fires back with, "Well I went to big university and we did it like this" even though she didn't even major in English. She tries to manipulate everyone into feeling sorry for her, but she's a complete fake. The grad advisor already knew this, so me telling her the craziness wasn't a surprise. We used to be cool, but since I started to surpass her in grades, conferences, and now in applying for doctorate programs, she's a sore loser.

I try to ignore it, I also have to try really hard not to go out of my way to make her look dumb, b/c this problem has built up so much that take pleasure in watching her realize she ISN'T THAT SMART nor is she a HARD WORKER. But that is not the person I want to be, I want to be a nice and kind person, but she makes it very hard. I have to tell myself that I should pity her for not realizing she could work harder to write better papers, or read more to understand. Instead she blames everything on the text being complicated or the theory is too hard. I just have to remind myself that sometimes some people are better at certain things than others, and I'm sure she has some skill or talent outside of this program. But grad school is definitely not what she's suited for, mentally or emotionally. It is very hard to be the better person and remain academically professional.

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Thanks a lot for the replies, everyone.

Haru -- sorry to hear that you're going through the same experience. It is very unpleasant, though mine has not yet reached the point (yet) where he is mean to me in class. He usually either 1) does not manage to say anything for the entire duration of the seminar ; or 2) says stuff that are completely irrelevant or nonsense. I actually don't even have to make any effort to make him look stupid. He does it hmiself. Though I admit that I now do take pleasure out of seeing the annoyed look on his face every time I speak up and the professor says that I brought up an excellent point and goes on to discuss it.

Someone above mentioned that it's not accurate to call it childish behavior, and that he is probably going through impostor syndrome or something of that sort. Well, I don't deny that he might be experiencing impostor syndrome, but I have too, and any time that I have gotten a lower grade than others, I have wanted to know what I did wrong and what they did right and how I can improve and do better than them next time. Do I get upset? Sure. I think it's natural to get upset. But I get upset more about why I didn't do better, than why they did well. It's a matter of attitude, imo. This guy is just whining about why *I* am getting good grades, which makes absolutely no sense at all. It's like he'd be perfectly happy with his low B's as long as I get a low B too.... I think that says a lot about his priorities. Mind you, on the first assignment, when he got a B- , he got super-upset, but didn't show that he was upset at me. And he kept saying he doesn't want to do a PhD anymore, that he was gonna drop the whole program and go look for a job. And me and my friend had to go after him and try to calm him down, etc. And the second time, with the mid-term, he took out his anger on us instead, even though *we* were the ones who were there for him when he was upset...

I really think that it's childish behavior on his part. Jealousy and competition might exist at every university, but I would like to think that they don't manifest themselves in this sort of behavior??? Then again, I guess this sort of thing happens more often than we'd like to think. It's sad, to be honest. If people can't control their emotions and act professionally, perhaps they have no place in academia?

Edited by TheSquirrel
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Sigaba,

Thanks for the reply. I addressed the childish/immature characterization issue in my post above.

I do have empathy. I have tried to help him out when he was going through a crisis the first time around, and after he got upset with me and told me that stuff, I tried to call him and get him to talk to me, but he refused to answer my phone calls and every time he saw me in the department, he walked in the opposite direction. And recently he has been coming into the computer lab and talking to everyone, and ignoring me.

Anyhow, I do think that at some point, people's behavior will stop you from sympathizing with what they're going through. That cut-off point for me was when I became the punching bag for his frustrations.

Apparently, the graduate director is aware of his not-so-great academic performance (he was also suspected of plagiarism because he wrote the same thing as my friend did, on a research methods assignment), and called him in to have a talk. And when he brought up his frustrations with how hard the program is, and how much readings we have to do, etc. (something that he keeps complaining about all the time), the director told him that 1) this is grad school; 2) that he should probably see a therapist if he cannot manage the stress.

I have considered raising my concerns (about harassment/feeling threatened) to the department/administration, but I've avoided doing it so far because that will inevitably lead some (or many) students in the department to see me as a nasty person who goes and complains to the department. Yes, I know the issue is not a small issue, as there is an element of violence/harassment involved, but people are quick to forget about the context, and what will stick in their heads is the fact that I went and complained about my "friend".

Anyhow, it's a very sticky and unpleasant situation, and I have so far tried to ignore it, because I felt that is the most professional thing to do -- for now. I don't know.

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TheSquirrel,

Why do you know each other's grades? Is that the norm in the department? Are they posted in a public place? If they are not posted, I would suggest not to disclose what you get to anyone. It is possible that you disclose it to someone else it could get back to him. If this person doesn't know how well you are doing relative to himself hopefully that will help alleviate some of the competition.

In general though, I would just behave neutrally i.e. be polite, but don't engage. It is a better political move and really it is futile trying to reason with someone who is not being logical or to help someone who doesn't want to be helped especially after how he has been acting. The exception to this would be if you feel physically threatened or are verbally harassed then you should go speak to someone. It is hard to tell in your posts the seriousness of his behavior although damaging your property is really not a good sign.

To be honest, since he is having academic struggles and you said the department is aware of his performance, I doubt he is going to be able to stick it out and complete the degree. I feel like classes are such a small part of being a successful doctoral student. My guess is that he is having trouble in other areas as well--i.e. research, teaching, relationship with professors, etc. Although the hope of him leaving is probably not that helpful to you in the short run.

Edit: Yes, I have had experience with people like this. I wouldn't ignore the person-- it gives him too much power. I would just talk to him about neutral topics and not discuss your successes. If asked, just be vague. When asked, "how did you do?" reply: "I did okay" or "I did alright" and then I would change the subject. Do not ask him how he did because that would be engaging him in the discussion on grades.

Edited by ZeChocMoose
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Hey -- that's a good idea; I will not be disclosing my grades to anyone anymore. Everyone in the PhD program knows everyone else's grades. It's a small program and we're pretty good friends and these things come up in discussions. People also want to know where they are in relation to the rest of the class. I, for one, would be curious to know how others are doing, because if they are getting better grades than I am, I would like to see what they are doing that is earning them that grade, so that I can improve myself.

I usually don't ask how much people got on assignments. I would just ask how they did. And if they say the grade, fine, if they don't, fine too. Usually they just straight up tell me what they got. They do the same with me too, and I tell them my grade.

The Masters students in my class don't want to disclose their grades and I don't ask them, because the professor judges our performance by different standards anyway.

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I normally don't tell others what grade I got on stuff. People don't normally ask though either. It's usually just the "innocent" glance in your direction as you gaze down at your paper/exam that had just been handed back to you in hopes of making out what it says at the top in red. :rolleyes: I usually put stuff away right away so that way it's not sitting in plain view of people nearby. Not that I am embarrassed, I just don't think it's anyone's business.

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Bullying is definitely something the program director needs to be told about. It's likely that your former friend is just stressed out, but even so, he needs to find a better way to cope.

Really, this sort of thing is the reason why everyone should fail at least once before entering grad school. Even though I get a little stressed whenever I'm waiting to get an assignment back, it never lasts. When it comes down to it, the ability to respond to feedback is much more important than succeeding right off the bat.

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I have that problem too; we will do working drafts and read them in class and get feedback, and other students say my ideas are complex and the professors provides positive feed back and gives the gold star. someone else will turn in a craptacular draft that is obviously not graduate level work, but b/c it's good work for THAT student, I get a B and they get an A. Talk about wanting to slit some tires. Final papers don't get feed back from our profs, which is total BS, b/c none of us ever know why we earned the grade we did. In a way grading each student is fair, but for the good students who are graded harshly, it is counter intuitive. Our program is full of students who think doing the work earns them an A, because for the most part, our professors have no back bone and don't want to hurt/offend them. The few really great students made Bs and keep it a secret b/c we are being treated unfairly and know it, but can't do anything about it. I don't tell anyone my grade, they assume I made As b/c of how good my work is that we are forced to share. But my profs grade me harder than anyone else, so they always mange to give Bs. Sounds like all of your graduate peers are being graded fairly though, but I still wouldn't give out my grades.

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I've never had that issue before. MA and PhD students are judged by different standards (and have different requirements anyway), but that does not mean that anyone is given grades that they don't deserve. The only time when I've been judged more harshly is in my supervisor's course, when he told me that he expects more from me. I do think that sometimes, people who don't put in as much effort but who present their work better, get a better grade, and that is not exactly fair, but still, it doesn't happen often. Most profs are very fair and professional. Anyhow, this thread was not about that issue.

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I have that problem too; we will do working drafts and read them in class and get feedback, and other students say my ideas are complex and the professors provides positive feed back and gives the gold star. someone else will turn in a craptacular draft that is obviously not graduate level work, but b/c it's good work for THAT student, I get a B and they get an A. Talk about wanting to slit some tires. Final papers don't get feed back from our profs, which is total BS, b/c none of us ever know why we earned the grade we did. In a way grading each student is fair, but for the good students who are graded harshly, it is counter intuitive. Our program is full of students who think doing the work earns them an A, because for the most part, our professors have no back bone and don't want to hurt/offend them. The few really great students made Bs and keep it a secret b/c we are being treated unfairly and know it, but can't do anything about it. I don't tell anyone my grade, they assume I made As b/c of how good my work is that we are forced to share. But my profs grade me harder than anyone else, so they always mange to give Bs. Sounds like all of your graduate peers are being graded fairly though, but I still wouldn't give out my grades.

you're a literature student and that is probably one of the most poorly written paragraphs i've read in a while, so i'm guessing you actually earned those Bs and think far too highly of yourself.

in my experience, it's way more common for students to reinterpret criticism as praise. i've been in the room while a student gets told, gently, that everything in their writing needs to change, but "the ideas are there" or "the content looks great," because people need something nice to say other than "this is a train wreck." and those students leave the room thinking, "everyone loved my ideas and content," not "everyone basically told me i need to rewrite this."

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StrangeLight: there's no need for rudeness. And it seems a little strange for a criticism of another's writing to be so badly plagued by poor punctuation.

As regards jealousy and the unpleasantries it spawns, my experiences have taught me to ignore it completely. Throughout graduate school I had a nemesis colleague in my department who took every available opportunity to criticize my ideas and talk poorly of me to my peers and professors. One of my friend's attended a workshop on turning a seminar paper into a publishable essay. During the meeting, my friend mentioned that I had been published in a specific journal, at which point my nemesis felt the need to suggest that I had stolen the ideas for the paper from someone else. Amazingly, she had been a student in the seminar when I wrote the first version of the paper and had heard me give a presentation about it! The fact of the matter is that some people feel a deep sense of insecurity and choose to lash out as others as a means of dissipating that feeling. Whether it's childish, sociopathic, or just plain silly is beside the point. You will never win an argument with another person's irrationality. The best option for you is to preserve your reputation as a collegial scholar, and that usually means avoiding confrontation with provocateurs.

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The best option for you is to preserve your reputation as a collegial scholar, and that usually means avoiding confrontation with provocateurs.

Doc--

Then why are you trying to provoke a confrontation with a highly respected member of this BB?

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Doc--

Then why are you trying to provoke a confrontation with a highly respected member of this BB?

Is it confrontation to ask someone not to be unnecessarily rude to another member? This forum should be a safe space for discussion (and in this case, venting) without personal attacks. There are other ways to disagree with what HaruNoKaze has expressed in his/her post.

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Is it confrontation to ask someone not to be unnecessarily rude to another member? This forum should be a safe space for discussion (and in this case, venting) without personal attacks. There are other ways to disagree with what HaruNoKaze has expressed in his/her post.

Safferz--

It would be one thing if a member who'd been around for a while had asked SL the same question. Titiritero83 joined this BB last night to market himself as a "consultant." and After being around for less than thirty minutes, he uses his second post to generate controversy in the same post in which he claims he prefers to avoid controversy. These factors, in combination with his digital footprint on the Internet, make me curious about his motivation.

In regards to SL's reply to HaruNoKaze, compare post #13 to the OP. Is HaruNoKaze's contribution in the spirit of the sensibility that TheSquirrel would like to see in graduate school or does it read more like the dynamic that inspired the thread in the first place?

Two last points. First, there is no "safe space" on the Internet unless you are prepared for anything and everything you post to appear on the front page of an internationally known broadsheet. Second, venting publicly about peers, professors, and students is not wise. A growing number of Americans frown upon the Ivory Tower and its inhabitants. Why add fuel to the fire when one could just as easily confide one's views to a diary or a journal?

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Safferz--

It would be one thing if a member who'd been around for a while had asked SL the same question. Titiritero83 joined this BB last night to market himself as a "consultant." and After being around for less than thirty minutes, he uses his second post to generate controversy in the same post in which he claims he prefers to avoid controversy. These factors, in combination with his digital footprint on the Internet, make me curious about his motivation.

In regards to SL's reply to HaruNoKaze, compare post #13 to the OP. Is HaruNoKaze's contribution in the spirit of the sensibility that TheSquirrel would like to see in graduate school or does it read more like the dynamic that inspired the thread in the first place?

Two last points. First, there is no "safe space" on the Internet unless you are prepared for anything and everything you post to appear on the front page of an internationally known broadsheet. Second, venting publicly about peers, professors, and students is not wise. A growing number of Americans frown upon the Ivory Tower and its inhabitants. Why add fuel to the fire when one could just as easily confide one's views to a diary or a journal?

I was not aware of titiritero83's posting history -- I am just stating my observations based on the sequence of posts in this particular thread, and that I actually took StrangeLight's post as the provocative remark, not titiritero83's comment that it was rude. Regardless of what one should/should not post on an internet forum, the fact is that many people come here for support and express their frustrations with other students who can often speak to the situation from either a position of shared experience, or simply understanding what it's like to be in graduate school. If you visit the Chronicle forums, you'll see that professors vent about their students and colleagues there as well. I don't have a problem with students here sharing their experiences and looking for advice and support, and most are careful enough to limit the information they share to remain anonymous.

That said, I am not disagreeing with your assessment of HaruNoKaze's comment. What you've said is constructive -- picking at his/her grammar to suggest he/she deserves those marks is not.

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for what it's worth, i was trying to be rude to tittywriter83. whenever i read/hear someone complaining that they are unfairly graded because they're so brilliant and their peers with higher grades are let off easy, i think they deserve a bit of rudeness. people think too damn highly of themselves. and while i appreciate sigaba sticking up for me, i can also handle myself and any negative recs that may come my way. sometimes delusional people need to be told that they're delusional, and i'm always happy to provide that service.

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I've seen what tittwriter83 has described a bit. A member of my cohort is from the Ivies (we're at a public R1 state school) and he gets a lot of criticism on his work if it isn't done to a particular standard. But this just occurs in one course with a prof who's an Alum at said Ivy. I don't know how his grades look in comparison to ours but there does seem to be a bit more pressure on him to produce.

With that said, I would never complain about what I got in comparison to others. I just seems to be a waste of energy. Why alienate your classmates by being an ass? I do believe that our prof has different expectations of us based on our experiences, interests, and past work but I have yet to hear anyone feel like they have been penalized for it. He just wants to push us to do our best work.

"There's no crying victim in grad school!"

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For him to get physical like the way you described is HIGHLY inappropriate. I understand your conundrum though - if you talk to the dept heads about him, there's no guarantee he'll get kicked out (that's actually unlikely) and he may become even more hostile.

You should be able to talk confidentially to your adviser about it - do you feel like you can do that?

Other than that, I would truly ignore this person. One thing I had to learn - we are not in grad school to make friends. Consider it a professional environment, and focus on yourself and what you have to get done. You have no obligation to discuss grades with this person, or even talk to him at all.

I have a few people in my department who are "problem children." At first it bothered me, but eventually I developed an attitude of "I don't care what anyone else thinks of me." You really have to.

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  • 3 weeks later...

at my undergrad, it is an unspoken rule to not discuss grades. No one should know how you are doing unless you tell them, and you only tell the people you can trust to be genuinely happy for you if you are doing well or who can commiserate instead of judging when you're not doing as well as you would like. If someone asks, you just say "I don't discuss grades." That's how most people deal with the competition.

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  • 1 month later...

TheSquirrel,

I just read your original post, and I have been through (and am going through) a similar situation. I do agree with what others have said, in that the violent outbursts are absolutely not acceptable. You have the right to feel safe in your environment, and to have confidence in knowing that your property will be respected. In my situation (for which I cannot give much detail here), I ended up having to speak to the dean in my department about the other student. We never used a specific name in our conversation - I just filled the dean in on the behaviour and my concerns. Even without names, it was very clear during that conversation that this student was already on the dean's radar. I was advised to document any incidents that I felt could be classified as harassment or bullying, and to be in regular contact with the dean if the behaviour continued. The bottom line, is that some people are highly toxic. And when they enter the stress of grad school and realise that they perhaps aren't as amazing as they view themselves to be, their toxicity becomes amplified as they lash out. Ultimately, you should be looking out for your own well-being in your learning environment. Avoid the toxic person as much as you can (can you request a different office?), don't give that person any fuel for their rage (e.g., never discuss your grades), and when there is an incident, make sure you've documented what happened and get in touch with someone who can make a difference (e.g. a dean or advisor).

Edited by Andsowego
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