TripWillis Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) With all respect, I don't think this forum is "hypersensitive"; I think, especially considering the high-stress of applying to these schools, that this forum is highly supportive and there are two or three characters who like to mix it up with provocative comments that they know are going to get a rise out of people (I wouldn't call them "trolls" -- that would be a bit harsh). I have seen people make fair, frank, and intelligent criticisms of others on this forum and most of the time it is done with tact. Sometimes it's not. (#throwingshade) Edited February 13, 2013 by TripWillis Two Espressos and practical cat 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagato Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Good lord this thread is a mess. Hopefully it recovers soon. Everyone has made some good points here. Keely's background combined with her unquestionable scholarly potential and achievements thus far basically makes them a poster-kid for top-notch graduate programs. We'd be deluding ourselves if we wanted to argue that affirmative action ideas and options played no role in their success. But that is not at all a negative reflection on their scholarly merit! We, each of us, must learn to use any and all advantages we (think we) have, if we're going to land that tenure track job. They're increasingly scarce as it is. So, sure, I would imagine that Berkeley's "Personal History" statement would, for Keely, have presented a golden opportunity to blast hell out of the adcom with their fascinating life story. How many applicants, right there, would pale in comparison, regardless of scholarly merit? Kudos to them for not only overcoming adversity, but for being able to translate it into a powerful edge over the vast majority of PhD applicants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripWillis Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 We'd be deluding ourselves if we wanted to argue that affirmative action ideas and options played no role in their success. That's the thing; I'm not sure we have a way of knowing that. I couldn't say either way. I'm not sure how anyone can, which is why I'm confused how this whole thing got started. midnight 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdon19 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 So... anyway... looks like there's been no word from UNC Chapel Hill tonight... disappointing. Aww, sorry for the false alarm! Well, in any case, word should be coming soon! (I shall chastise the silly rumormongers in the meantime ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecheese Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) (#throwingshade) this. also, http://www.youtube.com/embed/2bXJ2VYEnDw Edited February 13, 2013 by bluecheese Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asleepawake Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 ONE LAST GIF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripWillis Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 this. also, http://www.youtube.com/embed/2bXJ2VYEnDw "You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazedandbemused Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) this. also, http://www.youtube.com/embed/2bXJ2VYEnDw Oh my god, I love this. "She is going to be a black diva just like this drag queen over here." (slightly paraphrased, of course) I am also, unfortunately, out of upvotes. Edited February 13, 2013 by dazedandbemused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripWillis Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I don't know about you guys, but all this raucous debate is making me thirsty: bluecheese and KeelyMK 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InHacSpeVivo Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 ((For anyone who's interested, I'm for AA programs. Slavery was only abolished 150 years ago; the south was de jure desegregated about 60 years ago. There are only a few generations between today's minorities and oppressed peoples, and in the case of some groups, there are zero generations. There has been no time for many groups, such as African-Americans, to accrue and pass down wealth from generation to generation, provoking perpetual, snowballing uneven development based on bias. Economically speaking, structural inequity has made achievement institutionally more challenging for some than others. What's worse, certain people have an attitude that we live in a post-racial society just because Barack Obama is president and, thus, they are redacting their support and efforts toward resolving structural inequity. Like with gun control, AA is a band-aid on a more pervasive problem, but since no one is interested in fixing the pervasive problem (it would require an enormous political overhaul), the band-aid will have to do what it can)) This should probably move to a whole different thread, but I just had to throw in one note. I completely respect your opinion, and you make some very valid points. That being said, I find this issue interesting because I grew up in Hawaii where not only were white people the minority, but dealt with a substansial amount of harassment and discrimination (my high school had a lot of white military kids, who didn't want to be there anyway, but frequently still got the worst of it). Anyway, this is all an aside for reiterating that the system is flawed. Achievement is just as challenging for a white kid from Hawaii (or central Detroit or the backwoods of Louisiana) as minorities living in areas where whites are the majority. Like I said, just a note that I am completely open to taking to another thread. I just had to throw in that caveat because I think most people tend to forget about the little islands in the middle of the Pacific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripWillis Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) This should probably move to a whole different thread, but I just had to throw in one note. I completely respect your opinion, and you make some very valid points. That being said, I find this issue interesting because I grew up in Hawaii where not only were white people the minority, but dealt with a substansial amount of harassment and discrimination (my high school had a lot of white military kids, who didn't want to be there anyway, but frequently still got the worst of it). Anyway, this is all an aside for reiterating that the system is flawed. Achievement is just as challenging for a white kid from Hawaii (or central Detroit or the backwoods of Louisiana) as minorities living in areas where whites are the majority. Like I said, just a note that I am completely open to taking to another thread. I just had to throw in that caveat because I think most people tend to forget about the little islands in the middle of the Pacific. I know we should move this, but alas, your post is good, and I want to respond. Your post is very interesting. As with you, some of what I know about AA is observational, while some of it has been the product of research. For instance, I have observed my college classes being disproportionately represented with whites of privilege (and seeing as I've always gone to state schools...), which probably informs at least some of my more visceral feelings about AA. I have a clarifying question: did you find that white people in Hawaii were privy to being on the short end of structural inequity? I do not at all doubt the validity of your observations, but would be interested to know more, or if you've ever encountered research on the topic. Knowing nothing, I had just assumed that the indigenous/colonized peoples would be at a disadvantage, as with most cases. I would disagree that achievement is "as" challenging for a white-kid from Detroit (hey, that's actually me! And yeah, it was REALLY challenging, but maybe not for the reasons you think...). All other things being equal, white-kids from Detroit have white privilege, which carries from birth to death, pre-school to grad school, your first job to your last, etc. They didn't ask for this, but it exists, and it is well supported that it exists. I'm not trying to downgrade any white person's accomplishments, but I think it's worth noting that academia and other institutions of whiteness (congress, etc.) are disproportional in representation to US demographics for a reason. So while I understand that AA is imperfect in that it perhaps gives some people a very rare "unfair advantage," there is already a competing unfair advantage called structural bias of favoritism toward whites. (Then you get into the aporia of whether unfair advantages rectify other unfair advantages and this debate gets into being a total mess...) Edited February 13, 2013 by TripWillis midnight, BrookeSnow, jazzyd and 4 others 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErnestPWorrell Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) ^ I down voted when I meant to up vote. Sorry, Charlie. As an apology I will pay homage to a Detroit hero (Jack White.) Edited February 13, 2013 by ErnestPWorrell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lisajay Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) Hopefully by the time I write my dissertation I can just put a youtube video in between each paragraph. YESSSSSSSSSS!! if you do this [youtube clips & GIFS though], i will edit it for you, no charge. Edited February 13, 2013 by lisajay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripWillis Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 ^ I down voted when I meant to up vote. Sorry, Charlie. As an apology I will pay homage to a Detroit hero (Jack White.) Well, there goes my reputation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripWillis Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I think the strangest thing about this whole thing is that if one is in the position of taking advantage of affirmative action, I imagine that that person has already done quite a lot on their own to transcend our societal problems. What is it Spivak says, if you can call yourself subaltern, you're not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thestage Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) I think the strangest thing about this whole thing is that if one is in the position of taking advantage of affirmative action, I imagine that that person has already done quite a lot on their own to transcend our societal problems. What is it Spivak says, if you can call yourself subaltern, you're not? I don't know that this is a general conclusion, but I do feel that it certainly pertains to people applying to PhD programs. AA decisions are only going to get you into a PhD program if you are otherwise qualified, and if you are otherwise qualified for a PhD program you have put yourself on the same level as everyone else with a realistic chance of being admitted. It should also be said that I think most minority PhD applicants do not come from poor areas or poor families, which already significantly levels the field. The AA recognizes a problem that it cannot fix: it is present because institutions recognize that it is inherently difficult for certain people to reach certain levels of achievement given uncontrollable circumstances, but those realities make it unlikely that those truly affected will have the opportunity to take advantage of the program. Tyrelle from the hood (to borrow from another thread) ain't getting a PhD, I don't care how brilliant he is. In that sense, the AA program may do some harm by glossing over the reality. Edited February 13, 2013 by thestage DontHate and I'm a fact. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripWillis Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) I don't know that this is a general conclusion, but I do feel that it certainly pertains to people applying to PhD programs. AA decisions are only going to get you into a PhD program if you are otherwise qualified, and if you are otherwise qualified for a PhD program you have put yourself on the same level as everyone else with a realistic chance of being admitted. It should also be said that I think most minority PhD applicants do not come from poor areas or poor families, which already significantly levels the field. The AA recognizes a problem that it cannot fix: it is present because institutions recognize that it is inherently difficult for certain people to reach certain levels of achievement given uncontrollable circumstances, but those realities make it unlikely that those truly affected will have the opportunity to take advantage of the program. Well put. We need a lot more than AA in universities to rectify these problems. Edited February 13, 2013 by TripWillis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katia_chan Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 So... anyway... looks like there's been no word from UNC Chapel Hill tonight... disappointing. I'm upvoting you as a thank-you for returning to sanity. Not because I'm happy about the continued silence. Just felt the need to explain myself... <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Espressos Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) AA or no AA, KeelyMK kicked ass this season. Universities fighting for your matriculation? Damn. If I were to declare winners this application season, you (and bluecheese, and a few others) would be it. We won't mention the losers though... *cough*I'm one of them*cough* Edited February 13, 2013 by Two Espressos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Espressos Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Oh, and I love how subdued the "vicious" arguments on grad cafe are compared to the rest of the internet. Even with the passive-aggressive bitchiness, it's all good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripWillis Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) Oh, and I love how subdued the "vicious" arguments on grad cafe are compared to the rest of the internet. Even with the passive-aggressive bitchiness, it's all good. NO OBAMA WANT$ YUR TAX DOLLRAS FOR IMMIGRENTS! UR STUPID LIBRAL. Edit: to be fair, Man, the corporations want oil to make Cheney money because he is a nazi! UR STUPID CONSERVATIVE. Edited February 13, 2013 by TripWillis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmcgee Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) Oh, and I love how subdued the "vicious" arguments on grad cafe are compared to the rest of the internet. Even with the passive-aggressive bitchiness, it's all good. Word. I have yet to see anyone call anyone else a Nazi or rejoin with the ever-persuasive "Your a moron." Well done, y'all. Edited February 13, 2013 by jmcgee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DontHate Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) Word. I have yet to see anyone call anyone else a Nazi or rejoin with the ever-persuasive "Your a moron." Well done, y'all. You're a Nazi moron Edited February 13, 2013 by DontHate jmcgee 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripWillis Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 You're a Nazi moron Nope, you mean "your" And to everyone, it's "moran" Get it right. jmcgee 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendolyn Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Well, this is shitty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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