Rude and Disruptive Student

[process chemist]

So I have an student that I am teaching who is rude and obnoxious. The person also always complains about their grades, and it literally is driving me up a wall.

I actually heard the person say something derogatory about my performance as a TA. I feel that I am to an extant losing the class and this person is leading the rebellion.

This is literally my worst class: kids are always 1hr late for lab, they don't follow directions and half ass every lab, they are sloppy, someone is always missing class because they are "sick", they always want to leave early, and to top it off, they always complain about their lab scores. Also this person is in a sanctioned university activity (the kinds with coaches and staffs), and I am leaning to reporting this kid's behavior to his/her coaches.

My other lab goes extremely smooth, and their consistently out perform the other lab (both in grades, and lab performance). How do I handle this? I want to write an angry letter to this kids coach and let him/her what this person is doing. Or should I talk to the lab instructor about what to do?

[kaykaykay]

I would first talk to the lab instructor. In any case s(he) has to have your back make sure that if this guy goes to him directly he will know about the situation. Then scare the kids, or let him scare the kids about their performance and the appropriate grades that will follow. You may have already lost this class in the sense that your evaluations will be lousy (it happened to me once) but you have to stand your ground and if they deserve to fail, fail them. You may even want to try to leave (of course with the agreement of the instructor) if they do not show up. Maybe if they are scared at least the majority will get back to behave and you can help them.

With that one person: it may be too late but just stating that you can not only increase their grade but decrease their grade too if they want revision can help with the complaints. If he is in a competitive sport he may have to maintain an average. Letting know the coaches that this will not hapen may be appropriate. Also when any situation gets out of control if the person tries to communicate with me in email I always include the instructor as a cc in my response in which I try to be the most appropriate ever. Audience often silences inappropriate behaviour. Good luck!

[ktel]

I will just say it would be completely inappropriate for you to write to this student's coach about this. That is not nearly the right plan of action. Talking to the lab instructor is where you should start. Whoever is in charge of you should be able to help you with this.

[rising_star]

There's a couple of things you could do. First, you could try reminding the students what time the lab starts and that their lab grades are a reflection of their work. If they want higher grades, they need to put in the work, ask for help, etc. and showing up on time is a big part of that. Second, you should let whomever your supervisor is know what's going on. Tell him/her that you think you lost the students and explain what's happening. Third, you should try talking to other lab instructors, more senior grad students, or someone in your campus teaching center to get ideas on how to turn things around in your course. Maybe you need to bring in someone to observe before they can adequately comment on your teaching and the classroom atmosphere.

Last but not least, a student being rude/disruptive is not a reason to talk to their coach. Plus, if the student is an athlete, it's likely that you will have to fill out a progress report at some point during the semester. At that point, you can address the student's grade and attjtude towards the course at that time. But do so by conversing with the academic advisors for the athletics department, not with the coach(es).

Whatever you do, don't give up. Your students will be able to tell if you do. Instead, you need to try to get control over your classroom, which you can have even if you have one (or two) disruptive students. Also, the more attention you pay to that student's misbehavior, the more the class will. If you ignore it, they will too eventually. That said, there's no way in hell I'd wait an hour for students to show up. If no one was there within 10 minutes of the start of class, I'd leave a note on the door saying that I'm in my office and wait for them there if they do indeed want to do the work.

[uromastyx]

Honestly, excellent advice here. I would add:

Roundhouse kick to the face.   

[Dal PhDer]

Great advice here!

 

I would say start your next class with a presentation on the expectations of the students, and the consequences of not meeting those expectations. This way, you're outlining their responsibilities (showing up on time, being respectful during their time there, etc.), also- I always post my marking scheme before, so students know how I'm marking. I make sure it's clear and outlined well. This saves me time when marking, and if students come to talk to me, I can say "refer to the rubric to see where your grades are deducted". 

 

Be up front and clear with your expectations and what will happen if they are not meeting them. And if the student is being disruptive during class, ask them to leave- if they don't- call security. I recently attended a workshop on how to deal with disruptive students, and that was what the school suggested. You have to think about the class as a whole, I'm sure 1 disruptive student is annoying more than just you!

 

On the other hand, as the TA, it is YOUR job to remain in control of the class. It can be hard when students are overwhelmingly disrespectful, but that's why it's important to be upfront and clear about how you expect them to behave/act/work in your class, and what will happen if they don't meet those expectations - and you have to be sure to follow through.

 

Students can smell fear and niceness, and will take advantage of it!

Edited January 31, 2013 by Dal PhDer

[puppy1785]

Quoting Macchiato:

On the other hand, as the TA, it is YOUR job to remain in control of the class.

 

That statement is really really important. I've TA-ed for about 2 years now and that statement is absolute. If you as a TA show weakness and lose control over a few students, you will get stepped on by them. In my lab, if they show up more than 20 minutes late, I refuse their entry and I am totally allowed to do that; 1 hour late is way way absolutely too long. They might have scheduling problems and if they do, should be dealt with the admin. You might hate refusing their entry and you may get negative reviews/complaints about it from students but you will at the very least be doing your job.

[biotechie]

Quoting Macchiato:

On the other hand, as the TA, it is YOUR job to remain in control of the class.

 

That statement is really really important. I've TA-ed for about 2 years now and that statement is absolute. If you as a TA show weakness and lose control over a few students, you will get stepped on by them. In my lab, if they show up more than 20 minutes late, I refuse their entry and I am totally allowed to do that; 1 hour late is way way absolutely too long. They might have scheduling problems and if they do, should be dealt with the admin. You might hate refusing their entry and you may get negative reviews/complaints about it from students but you will at the very least be doing your job.

 

Wow! You are a nice TA! If mine are more than 10 minutes late, they get counted as absent. I only teach a 2 hour lab, and if they show up an hour late, there is no reason for them to even be there.

At the beginning of each semester, I give them a sheet other than the course syllabus of what I expect of them and what they can expect of me. I clearly state that lateness will not be tolerated, cell phones are not allowed out and are not acceptable calculators, and that lack of participation, not following lab protocol (food/drinks/unsafe behavior) allows me to subtract from their grades. I am rigid with my grading, and what I say goes. Usually scores are poor the first two weeks as they try to get me to bend, but they quickly go up after that. If they follow my rules, I'm really fun and they'll get to do extra little fun things- I.E. explore the rest of the frog after successful sciatic nerve dissection and stimulation or do a gram stain AND a methylene blue stain on a cheek swab. Control is definitely key, and I haven't had an issue for two years.... until now. >.<

I have quite the odd problem, this semester. I have a student who asks about a million questions during my lecture (most of which I am about to cover) and then wants to participate in every lab group and do everything herself. In a group of 16 with 4 lab groups, obviously this does not work. I finally had to ask her last class to hold her questions until the end of my lecture to see if I answered her questions during lecture (I did, but she still asked them again after). It is great that she wants to participate so much in the lab part, but getting her to tone it down and stay in her group has not worked. It would also help if she would take the time to pay attention to my lab demonstrations so things would get done correctly... not to mention when she gets her way and does the measurements, she gives her group mates each different, highly inaccurate numbers. I've asked my course coordinator to sit in on my class this week and to sit in on a meeting with this student so we can get her on the right page... but if she doesn't listen to the course coordinator, I too am at risk of not getting anything accomplished with this class. She just confuses the hell out of the other students, meaning that my office hours are full up, which has NEVER happened before!

Edited February 9, 2013 by biotechie

[TeaGirl]

I have quite the odd problem, this semester. I have a student who asks about a million questions during my lecture (most of which I am about to cover) and then wants to participate in every lab group and do everything herself. In a group of 16 with 4 lab groups, obviously this does not work. I finally had to ask her last class to hold her questions until the end of my lecture to see if I answered her questions during lecture (I did, but she still asked them again after). It is great that she wants to participate so much in the lab part, but getting her to tone it down and stay in her group has not worked. It would also help if she would take the time to pay attention to my lab demonstrations so things would get done correctly... not to mention when she gets her way and does the measurements, she gives her group mates each different, highly inaccurate numbers. I've asked my course coordinator to sit in on my class this week and to sit in on a meeting with this student so we can get her on the right page... but if she doesn't listen to the course coordinator, I too am at risk of not getting anything accomplished with this class. She just confuses the hell out of the other students, meaning that my office hours are full up, which has NEVER happened before!

 

I've had some students a little similar to that over the last couple of years, although not as much as what you describe. Sometimes they get a little too excited about something and they don't listen while I'm explaining, focus on their question, and then the second I'm done ask a question that I just explained. The silence that ensues when I ask them "so what did I just discuss?" is interesting. The first couple of times I repeated, but now I make a pointed comment that I had just covered that question, so I'm not going to repeat it. If they ask a specific question that shows they've been listening but don't understand then I answer. If they're just asking me to repeat things, I usually ask them to bring additional questions to office hours after they've read the text/notes/etc because there's not enough time during the lecture to repeat material. And during office hours, I ask them about the material a little before answering to make sure they're learning how to teach themselves.

 

I think you're doing the right thing with getting the course coordinator involved. As far as getting the bad measurements, I don't know how that works in biology but maybe when the coordinator is attending your class one of you can observe what is wrong with her technique. Too unfocused maybe and excited about the idea of the experiment but not actually paying attention to what she's doing? If you "go in" once or twice (not more) and show her exactly where she is getting things wrong maybe that will help?

I don't recommend focusing on her too much, but if she's confusing the other students, then allow her only one question during the lecture and cut it short before it devolves to a confusing and unending string of questions. Just ask her to bring the rest of her questions to office hours.

Edited February 12, 2013 by TeaGirl

[CP3]

My info might be irrelevant... Well, it's been quite awhile since I taught. On a few occasions, students were talking during my lecture in a large hall while I was speaking and writing on a chalkboard.

 

I slowly turned, stared at them, and said "You have all of the time in the world to talk BEFORE and AFTER class, surely you can wait 50 minutes to talk some more." They shrugged down and were silent the rest of class. Of course, I am tall, foreboding, and I give a face that scares myself at times.....I guess I don't have good advice! 

 

BE FIRM!!! 

[biotechie]

I've had some students a little similar to that over the last couple of years, although not as much as what you describe. Sometimes they get a little too excited about something and they don't listen while I'm explaining, focus on their question, and then the second I'm done ask a question that I just explained. The silence that ensues when I ask them "so what did I just discuss?" is interesting. The first couple of times I repeated, but now I make a pointed comment that I had just covered that question, so I'm not going to repeat it. If they ask a specific question that shows they've been listening but don't understand then I answer. If they're just asking me to repeat things, I usually ask them to bring additional questions to office hours after they've read the text/notes/etc because there's not enough time during the lecture to repeat material. And during office hours, I ask them about the material a little before answering to make sure they're learning how to teach themselves.

 

I think you're doing the right thing with getting the course coordinator involved. As far as getting the bad measurements, I don't know how that works in biology but maybe when the coordinator is attending your class one of you can observe what is wrong with her technique. Too unfocused maybe and excited about the idea of the experiment but not actually paying attention to what she's doing? If you "go in" once or twice (not more) and show her exactly where she is getting things wrong maybe that will help?

I don't recommend focusing on her too much, but if she's confusing the other students, then allow her only one question during the lecture and cut it short before it devolves to a confusing and unending string of questions. Just ask her to bring the rest of her questions to office hours.

My info might be irrelevant... Well, it's been quite awhile since I taught. On a few occasions, students were talking during my lecture in a large hall while I was speaking and writing on a chalkboard.

 

I slowly turned, stared at them, and said "You have all of the time in the world to talk BEFORE and AFTER class, surely you can wait 50 minutes to talk some more." They shrugged down and were silent the rest of class. Of course, I am tall, foreboding, and I give a face that scares myself at times.....I guess I don't have good advice! 

 

BE FIRM!!! 

 

Thanks both of you! I've been TAing for two years, and I've never had a student like this. I pulled her outside before lab on Tuesday and explained that other students had complained to me and that if she paid close attention, she would find most of her questions answered in my lecture. I told her I was happy to answer any questions once lab had actually started. Lo and behold, no questions!

I asked her to observe the other students in her group this week rather than do the pipetting. They also had perfect results. I think the issue is that she either stops paying attention or gets stuck on thinking about a concept that she stops paying attention. I take the time to show each group of students how to handle and use the pipets and equipment, and then I watch them use it. It seems that my sub for that week while I was at interviews may not have been so stringent with the training, so I made up for it this week. She doesn't seem to be very excited, however. This is a lab for non-science majors to get a general credit, and she claims to be premed, so she shouldn't even be in this lab. She keeps asking me when we will get into "real" science and away from this "stupid chemistry." I'm thinking she doesn't realize what the biggest component of medicine is.

I have a feeling my semester will improve from here; they took their first quiz this week where I expected them to explain some of the concepts they learned in their labs. They aren't great, but on par with previous semesters, and I think they will do a better job paying attention to what each member of their group is doing. We also had a much more fun lab experience this week with more people participating and asking questions related, but beyond the scope of the lab... until one of my students suddenly passed out in class. So THAT is why they make us get first aid certified! Poor kid had been sick the day before and was incredibly dehydrated... and hadn't checked her e-mail to see my reply telling her not to come to class sick. Ugh.

 

As far as scary looks go, I'm a tiny girl with a tiny voice most of the time. However, disrupting my classroom and making it impossible for others to hear my lecture results in me using my "Marching Band" voice. It is big, loud, and deeper than my normal voice, and it works.

Hopefully process chemist showed their students who the boss is!

Edited February 14, 2013 by biotechie

[CP3]

Thanks both of you! I've been TAing for two years, and I've never had a student like this. I pulled her outside before lab on Tuesday and explained that other students had complained to me and that if she paid close attention, she would find most of her questions answered in my lecture. I told her I was happy to answer any questions once lab had actually started. Lo and behold, no questions!

I asked her to observe the other students in her group this week rather than do the pipetting. They also had perfect results. I think the issue is that she either stops paying attention or gets stuck on thinking about a concept that she stops paying attention. I take the time to show each group of students how to handle and use the pipets and equipment, and then I watch them use it. It seems that my sub for that week while I was at interviews may not have been so stringent with the training, so I made up for it this week. She doesn't seem to be very excited, however. This is a lab for non-science majors to get a general credit, and she claims to be premed, so she shouldn't even be in this lab. She keeps asking me when we will get into "real" science and away from this "stupid chemistry." I'm thinking she doesn't realize what the biggest component of medicine is.

I have a feeling my semester will improve from here; they took their first quiz this week where I expected them to explain some of the concepts they learned in their labs. They aren't great, but on par with previous semesters, and I think they will do a better job paying attention to what each member of their group is doing. We also had a much more fun lab experience this week with more people participating and asking questions related, but beyond the scope of the lab... until one of my students suddenly passed out in class. So THAT is why they make us get first aid certified! Poor kid had been sick the day before and was incredibly dehydrated... and hadn't checked her e-mail to see my reply telling her not to come to class sick. Ugh.

 

As far as scary looks go, I'm a tiny girl with a tiny voice most of the time. However, disrupting my classroom and making it impossible for others to hear my lecture results in me using my "Marching Band" voice. It is big, loud, and deeper than my normal voice, and it works.

Hopefully process chemist showed their students who the boss is!

Fantastic!!!! Use that Marching Band voice more often!!! hahahaha

[Tuck]

Oh man, I passed out in class the first semester of undergrad. I had given blood earlier in the day. I felt it coming on and for some reason raised my hand as a means to tell someone. Apparently I slumped over in my chair about the time the professor called on me.

 

I've since learned that I'm quite prone to fainting, and I'm terrified of it happening in front of my own students one day.

[biotechie]

Oh man, I passed out in class the first semester of undergrad. I had given blood earlier in the day. I felt it coming on and for some reason raised my hand as a means to tell someone. Apparently I slumped over in my chair about the time the professor called on me.

 

I've since learned that I'm quite prone to fainting, and I'm terrified of it happening in front of my own students one day.

 

I passed out my first week of college... on my birthday... on 114 degree asphalt. It was band camp, we were marching backward in block, and I was at the back of the block... I literally got trampled by a marching band.

 

You know, this semester is probably going to kill me. It is like the students know it is my last one teaching. That student passed out AGAIN this week, only this time hit her head on the door and the floor...hard. She woke up immediately and said she was okay, but we made sure she got to the health center and got checked out. There's no way I was letting someone who hit their head like that just go home, and she needed to learn why she is fainting. I'm guessing low blood sugar or dehydration. She just e-mailed us to let us know she is fine, now... but now I'm worried for next week.

 

I'm sure you'll be fine; just stay hydrated and keep your sugar normal!

Edited February 21, 2013 by biotechie

[ak48]

Biotechie, from my initial guess it seems to me that your problem student is a premedical student, who plans to go into medical school?

 

Premeds in my experience, and common stereotypes, are notoriously competitive and gaming of the system. My armchair pyschology tells me that she's trying to be domineering in order to stand out so that you'll give her the most attention, or she wants to make sure she gets the best grades and making sure she knows the answers.

 

This would also suggest to me that she may be sabotaging the numbers given to other students so that she gets the better results?

 

Again, i'm making big assumptions off limited evidence, but that's my impression. I'm glad you got it under control.

[biotechie]

Biotechie, from my initial guess it seems to me that your problem student is a premedical student, who plans to go into medical school?

 

Premeds in my experience, and common stereotypes, are notoriously competitive and gaming of the system. My armchair pyschology tells me that she's trying to be domineering in order to stand out so that you'll give her the most attention, or she wants to make sure she gets the best grades and making sure she knows the answers.

 

This would also suggest to me that she may be sabotaging the numbers given to other students so that she gets the better results?

 

Again, i'm making big assumptions off limited evidence, but that's my impression. I'm glad you got it under control.

 

You are right; taking her aside and talking to her has done the trick so far, though I do have to remind her on occasion. She still asks questions, but they are better thought out and less confusing to the other students... and I make sure that she sits out for some parts of the lab so that everyone gets a chance. So far, other than sudden passing out of other students, it is going better. You almost have to treat her like she is a game and just maintain the upper hand....

As a premed, she isn't even supposed to take this class, which was designed for non-science majors. Oh well.

[ak48]

So far, other than sudden passing out of other students, it is going better

 That's a seriously tilted "good news bad news" situation.

 

 

As a premed, she isn't even supposed to take this class, which was designed for non-science majors. Oh well.

 Easy A to inflate the GPA

[ak48]

 Also, as an undergrad I had some buddies in the graduate department who ran Organic Chem lab sessions. At one point my friend got fed up with so many whiny premeds challenging every point deduction (legitimate or not) that he basically acquiesed to their demands and then set the curve low because the scores were too high haha.

[Andean Pat]

OK, before I read all the thread, I am going to tell you about my own experience. This is in high school, which is a little more difficult because students do not choose the subjects (at least where I work). Let me just handle some tips that were quite useful:

 

* Attack the behaviour, not the student. What is wrong is the behaviour, not the person himself. maybe you can approach him/her by saying that complaining about grades but not actually doing the work is contradictory. Avoid saying "you are contradictory". Like this, you give him/her the chance to change. Otherwise, he/she is stuck in that label.

 

* Praise publicly, scold privately. Never never never engage into a rebellion in the open. If you "win" (which you probably will), you humiliate him/her and it is purposeless. I am sure that you/the professor set the rules clearly so if anyone complains in the open, you can simply say it was clear at the beginning of the term and he/she can meet with you later (not in front of everyone). On the other hand, do praise. Not the rebellious person, anyone. You'll see that praising a lot will get students be more positive about their learning. For example: "that is an excellent observation". 

 

* Communicate. Meet with this person and explain his/her lousy progress. Leave a record. Ask the professor to be present. when the time comes and if he/she fails, you have everything on records. 

 

Anyway, this is very schooly, so forgive me if you do not find it useful. 

[biotechie]

OK, before I read all the thread, I am going to tell you about my own experience. This is in high school, which is a little more difficult because students do not choose the subjects (at least where I work). Let me just handle some tips that were quite useful:

 

* Attack the behaviour, not the student. What is wrong is the behaviour, not the person himself. maybe you can approach him/her by saying that complaining about grades but not actually doing the work is contradictory. Avoid saying "you are contradictory". Like this, you give him/her the chance to change. Otherwise, he/she is stuck in that label.

 

* Praise publicly, scold privately. Never never never engage into a rebellion in the open. If you "win" (which you probably will), you humiliate him/her and it is purposeless. I am sure that you/the professor set the rules clearly so if anyone complains in the open, you can simply say it was clear at the beginning of the term and he/she can meet with you later (not in front of everyone). On the other hand, do praise. Not the rebellious person, anyone. You'll see that praising a lot will get students be more positive about their learning. For example: "that is an excellent observation". 

 

* Communicate. Meet with this person and explain his/her lousy progress. Leave a record. Ask the professor to be present. when the time comes and if he/she fails, you have everything on records. 

 

Anyway, this is very schooly, so forgive me if you do not find it useful. 

 

This is pretty much what I had to do with this student. Seriously, peeps, read that if you're having issues.

 

Easy A to inflate the GPA

That only works if they do A-level work... >.<