Have any of you received a negative recommendation?

[agnesxleon]

Hey all! 

I was wondering if any of you have experiences with receiving a negative recommendation. I have two professors I wish to ask, but I am hesitant because they were graphic design professors and the program I wish to apply isn't quite related to design. I studied graphic design as an undergrad and have been working as a designer since graduating, but I would really like to apply to a communication program to focus on the management aspects of being in a marketing firm. I graduated with a 3.8 GPA and did well in all their classes, but for some reason, I am feeling a bit hesitant about it. So, are professors kind of obligated to write a good recommendation for students??

[uromastyx]

I have only been told (by profs) that yes, they will write 'good' letters. Keep in mind though, you could certainly get lukewarm letters. The odds of getting a poor LOR are slim. But if a PROF doesn't feel comfortable writing a 'good' letter then they will find a way to let you know that they don't want to do it.

There is, of course, a difference between a 'good' letter and a 'great' letter.

Nevertheless, this is why *almost* everyone mentions in their profile that they have 'strong' letters.

[VBD]

From what I've heard of my peers, there has been only one truly negative letter story, and that was from a professor with a hidden agenda (long story..but a good, funny story.. well not for that student).

 

Most professors, if you ask them, are willing to write a good letter. As Uro says, there are varying levels of good. A simple "does well in class" is a good level, but it really does nothing to show the ad comms how good of an independent researcher you are. Professors who know you beyond class (say you asked them advice on graphic design issues outside of class, worked for them, assisted them in some way, or approached them with your own original concept) will by nature be able to write a better letter because they actually KNOW you. 

 

A fellow peer in my cohort upon hearing the one negative letter story I referenced earlier was worried about this exact thing. And so she approached her letter recommenders in person (not sure if this is possible for you) and asked "if they can write a positive letter of recommendation" and offered to have skype/in-person meetings to get reacquainted on a better level. It seemed to have worked for her. 

[uromastyx]

From what I've heard of my peers, there has been only one truly negative letter story, and that was from a professor with a hidden agenda (long story..but a good, funny story.. well not for that student).

That's terrifying.

[VBD]

Well it will probably never happen to the OP or probably anyone else since this particular student was really really stupid. 

 

(Story time! You should probably ignore it - TL;DR - Don't hook up  in your lab behind your prof's back especially if you plan to ask for a letter in the future.)

 

So Boy A started a summer lab "practicum" with the Professor. In general, Boy A was a hard worker and did whatever needed to be told. He told the Professor that he was interested in either research or going to med school. In reality, his focus was pretty much on med school and he just wanted to pad his resume. The Professor sort of figured this out part-way through the summer so he was wary of the student. Boy A had a girlfriend who thought that doing science was "sooo cool" and for some reason kept insisting on trying to sneak in the lab. For some reason, Boy A and his girlfriend decide to go into the lab at night, when no one's there. For some reason, the girlfriend finds the whole thing "sexy" and they start making out in the lab. Boy A then convinces the girlfriend to engage in intercourse on one of the lab bays for the lolz and to take pictures and show it off to their friends (WHY?!). Meanwhile, the Professor was working late in his office for a grant application. He heard a commotion from the lab and ran to see what was up. Through the door, he saw Boy A and his girlfriend doing their thing. Boy A thought he got away with it. A few months later, Boy A was applying for med school, and asked the Professor for a letter. The Professor said sure and proceeded to write a scathing letter about Boy A's unprofessionalism and sexcapades. Boy A did not get into any of his 15 med schools. 

The Professor later that year became the advisor for a master's student, Boy B, who told me this story. The Professor told this story as a warning to all new members of the lab. Interestingly enough Boy B knows Boy A and had seen/heard of the pictures taken that night so he can verify it and knows Boy A's version along with the Professor's story. So yeah, don't do this.

[katieliz456]

When I asked my profs, they specifically replied that they would be delighted to write me a "POSITIVE letter of rec".  (In the future, I will make sure to include the word "positive" in my request.)  

 

And I wouldn't worry about the different program/focus. I am applying to speech pathology programs, but I asked an English professor who taught an academic writing course. It was a 15-person course so we became close, and the class involved writing research papers (that could potentially be submitted for publication in a journal) and doing a "poster session" on the paper. I knew that she could vouch for my professionalism, writing skills, work ethic, communication skills, punctuality etc. that are not specific to my desired program, but are still important and relevant. 

[stillalivetui]

Well it will probably never happen to the OP or probably anyone else since this particular student was really really stupid. 

 

(Story time! You should probably ignore it - TL;DR - Don't hook up  in your lab behind your prof's back especially if you plan to ask for a letter in the future.)

 

So Boy A started a summer lab "practicum" with the Professor. In general, Boy A was a hard worker and did whatever needed to be told. He told the Professor that he was interested in either research or going to med school. In reality, his focus was pretty much on med school and he just wanted to pad his resume. The Professor sort of figured this out part-way through the summer so he was wary of the student. Boy A had a girlfriend who thought that doing science was "sooo cool" and for some reason kept insisting on trying to sneak in the lab. For some reason, Boy A and his girlfriend decide to go into the lab at night, when no one's there. For some reason, the girlfriend finds the whole thing "sexy" and they start making out in the lab. Boy A then convinces the girlfriend to engage in intercourse on one of the lab bays for the lolz and to take pictures and show it off to their friends (WHY?!). Meanwhile, the Professor was working late in his office for a grant application. He heard a commotion from the lab and ran to see what was up. Through the door, he saw Boy A and his girlfriend doing their thing. Boy A thought he got away with it. A few months later, Boy A was applying for med school, and asked the Professor for a letter. The Professor said sure and proceeded to write a scathing letter about Boy A's unprofessionalism and sexcapades. Boy A did not get into any of his 15 med schools. 

The Professor later that year became the advisor for a master's student, Boy B, who told me this story. The Professor told this story as a warning to all new members of the lab. Interestingly enough Boy B knows Boy A and had seen/heard of the pictures taken that night so he can verify it and knows Boy A's version along with the Professor's story. So yeah, don't do this.

 

This is priceless. I would feel bad for the kid, but who does that?

[selecttext]

i think that sex in the lab is probably more common than most realize LOL

[margarets]

But if a PROF doesn't feel comfortable writing a 'good' letter then they will find a way to let you know that they don't want to do it.

 

Or...they can send mixed signals so you don't know where you stand.  At least, that's what's happening for me right now.

 

Sent an email to one prof asking for an LoR about 3 months ahead of time.  Got a prompt response, saying yes, did I need it right away? because prof  was just leaving for a conference.  I replied that there was plenty of time and that I would email him again closer to the actual time. 

 

Which I did.  And I got no reply.  Which isn't really like this prof.  Since the university is not far from my workplace, I dropped by his office to check in.  Prof was all "Oh did I not reply?  I thought I did.  Anyway, yes, it's fine."

 

So I submitted the application and everything.  I can see online that my other two LoRs are in the system, but not you-know-who.  WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

 

I know - there are a million posts like this on the forums. I have to just sit tight for a bit.  The office doesn't even have my transcripts yet, according to the online system, so it's not like this LoR is holding up my application.  But if/when it gets to that stage, I'll follow up with this prof.

 

I really hope this isn't passive-aggressive sabotage of my application, but I am too paranoid not to think about it!!!

[VBD]

Katieliz, I agree, that is probably the best way to phrase it, "a positive letter of recommendation"

 

Margarets, do you have a back-up LOR planned? For just in case?

[margarets]

Margarets, do you have a back-up LOR planned? For just in case?

 

Not really.  Just two are required, and I have those. This would be the third.   I'm more just worried about how it looks to an adcomm to have an LoR bail on you.

[Angua]

Or...they can send mixed signals so you don't know where you stand.  At least, that's what's happening for me right now.

 

Sent an email to one prof asking for an LoR about 3 months ahead of time.  Got a prompt response, saying yes, did I need it right away? because prof  was just leaving for a conference.  I replied that there was plenty of time and that I would email him again closer to the actual time. 

 

Which I did.  And I got no reply.  Which isn't really like this prof.  Since the university is not far from my workplace, I dropped by his office to check in.  Prof was all "Oh did I not reply?  I thought I did.  Anyway, yes, it's fine."

 

So I submitted the application and everything.  I can see online that my other two LoRs are in the system, but not you-know-who.  WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

 

I know - there are a million posts like this on the forums. I have to just sit tight for a bit.  The office doesn't even have my transcripts yet, according to the online system, so it's not like this LoR is holding up my application.  But if/when it gets to that stage, I'll follow up with this prof.

 

I really hope this isn't passive-aggressive sabotage of my application, but I am too paranoid not to think about it!!!

 

This sounds like a typical flaky professor, not an attempt at sabotage (not that it makes things all that much better right now while you're waiting!). Try to stay positive/sane!

[zabius]

My masters advisor wrote me a letter during last year's application cycle that I later learned was the direct cause of my PhD app rejections (one of my ex-POIs later told me that an "unsupportive letter" ruined my chances with the admission committee, despite his own endorsement of my application). So, it *can* happen. I obviously haven't seen the letter, but I'm led to believe that it was neither bad nor good. Basically, my advisor said that I'm smart but easily distracted, lack motivation, et cetera... basically, a lot of things that no grad school really wants to hear (and things, as it turns out, that aren't really true). :-/ The worst thing about this was the fact that my advisor never once gave me any sign that he disapproved of my work... he was always friendly to me, and sounded supportive when I asked him for a letter. Even now, he's still friendly to me in our email conversations (I can't really tell him that I know about his letter).

 

So, not a bad rec, but not really good or even lukewarm either. However, my understanding is that this type of thing usually doesn't happen. If a professor cannot write you a good letter, s/he will probably tell you that, decline your request altogether, or at least give you subtle signs that you should look for someone else. Still, my advice is to choose carefully. In my case, I think that the "bad" letter stemmed from the fact that my advisor was never in the lab, and interpreted a problem with my experiment (all of the specimens were infected by a parasite and died, halting the entire thing... long story, but not something that anyone could have foreseen or prevented) as me just "slacking off." Still, his outward friendliness and the fact that he never talked to me about this are very strange.

Edited February 15, 2013 by zabius

[Queen of Kale]

I once had a professor enthusiastically respond to a letter request, make me follow him around like a puppy dog for about ten weeks to get it, and when he finally wrote the letter it was (literally) a sentence long.  He handed it to me, open, with an envelope and was like, "I'm sure I could say more great things about you but they'll get the drift and I'm really busy right now."  Then he started talking about how awesome he was while standing in front of the door to his office for like 45 minutes.  So, he cost me a few months, wrote a terrible letter  ignored that he wrote a terrible letter, and kept me from eating lunch that day.  Also, I'm taking another class with him this semester and I can tell her thinks he's never met me before.  Anyway, I just thanked him for the letter and recycled it on my way out of his office and found an emergency letter writer instead.  You just never know.

[margarets]

My masters advisor wrote me a letter during last year's application cycle that I later learned was the direct cause of my PhD app rejections (one of my ex-POIs later told me that an "unsupportive letter" ruined my chances with the admission committee, despite his own endorsement of my application). So, it *can* happen. I obviously haven't seen the letter, but I'm led to believe that it was neither bad nor good. Basically, my advisor said that I'm smart but easily distracted, lack motivation, et cetera... basically, a lot of things that no grad school really wants to hear (and things, as it turns out, that aren't really true). :-/ The worst thing about this was the fact that my advisor never once gave me any sign that he disapproved of my work... he was always friendly to me, and sounded supportive when I asked him for a letter. Even now, he's still friendly to me in our email conversations (I can't really tell him that I know about his letter).

 

So, not a bad rec, but not really good or even lukewarm either. However, my understanding is that this type of thing usually doesn't happen. If a professor cannot write you a good letter, s/he will probably tell you that, decline your request altogether, or at least give you subtle signs that you should look for someone else. Still, my advice is to choose carefully. In my case, I think that the "bad" letter stemmed from the fact that my advisor was never in the lab, and interpreted a problem with my experiment (all of the specimens were infected by a parasite and died, halting the entire thing... long story, but not something that anyone could have foreseen or prevented) as me just "slacking off." Still, his outward friendliness and the fact that he never talked to me about this are very strange.

 

Zabius, that really sucks.  I wonder if the unsupportive letter was only a dealbreaker because the adcomm needed to whittle down the list.  If there were  30 places but 35 strong applicants, the adcomm needed to start looking for reasons to reject five people, and they latched on to whatever they found.  I know that's not much comfort, but I've seen that sort of thing happen in hiring decisions.

 

Now, about these "subtle signs".  How to tell the difference between a subtle sign and general flakiness and procrastination?

[zabius]

I once had a professor enthusiastically respond to a letter request, make me follow him around like a puppy dog for about ten weeks to get it, and when he finally wrote the letter it was (literally) a sentence long.  He handed it to me, open, with an envelope and was like, "I'm sure I could say more great things about you but they'll get the drift and I'm really busy right now."  Then he started talking about how awesome he was while standing in front of the door to his office for like 45 minutes.  So, he cost me a few months, wrote a terrible letter  ignored that he wrote a terrible letter, and kept me from eating lunch that day.  Also, I'm taking another class with him this semester and I can tell her thinks he's never met me before.  Anyway, I just thanked him for the letter and recycled it on my way out of his office and found an emergency letter writer instead.  You just never know.

 

 

Yikes... I'm glad that you had a chance to see the letter before it reached any of the schools you were applying to!

 

Zabius, that really sucks.  I wonder if the unsupportive letter was only a dealbreaker because the adcomm needed to whittle down the list.  If there were  30 places but 35 strong applicants, the adcomm needed to start looking for reasons to reject five people, and they latched on to whatever they found.  I know that's not much comfort, but I've seen that sort of thing happen in hiring decisions.

 

Now, about these "subtle signs".  How to tell the difference between a subtle sign and general flakiness and procrastination?

 

 

I think that you're right. This particular program only accepts a maximum of 4 new students each year, but apparently gets a lot of applicants. I try not to think about it much now... I switched up my letter writers this year and have been having much better luck. :-)

 

As for how to pick up on these subtle signs... I have no clue. :-/

[foucaultmania]

Yeap, I am in Turkey. 5 years ago, when I was attempting to apply for Masters in Turkey, I required two letters of recommendation from a professor who knows me very well. My final scores in her courses were always an (A). In Turkey, most generally, the LORs are given to students in a signed envelope by the professor. So I took two letters from that professors for two different applications. However, after a while I decided not to apply for one of the programs. I applied for only one program and the folder of the other application was in my room. I have never thought that I should open the letter since I believe it is not honest. However, I believed that I would be admitted to the program that I applied since my application was very strong. But, I was rejected, after being rejected, I thought that I had to check the reference letter of that professor. When I opened the letter I was shocked. It was a very short letter, it tells nothing about my strenghts, and it doesn't have any purpose like "I strongly recommend him", and in the end of letter it was written "the applicant should develop his skills", after seeing it I said "what skills! you b.tch!". So, sometimes it happens.

[Mark1012]

I agree that it is not easy to tell if a professor who appears to be friendly and eager to write a letter would actually do so. I suspect though that it is possible that he or she will not write a good enough letter. It's only a suspicion since I have no proof, but only a reason to suspect, so in the end it's just a matter of intuition, unless you can actually see the contents of the letter. I could not, since all letters were sent electronically and I waived the right to inspect them later, as I thought there was no reason to do so, that I should trust my referees. Anyway, a few years ago I asked a former superior (he was not a professor, but a Director of an office where I had worked for a while; one recommendation can be professional in a lot of grad programs) to write me a recommendation for all the schools I was intending to apply to, and he agreed without hesitation. We had a very good working relationship, he relied a lot on my analyses and reports, and he was very content, so I thought that he would be a good source of reference as we collaborated on a daily basis and intensively so. However, I omitted to take into account that there was a moment when he did not appear to be very pleased due to my take on a certain subject. I disagreed with his concept and views, and I gave him my argumentation why I did. I know that perhaps it is not always wise to give your own opinions, but since that was part of my job and since he specifically asked me to report on the topic with my personal take, I thought it was perfectly ok. Apparently, I was wrong as his reactions were at best a camouflaged anger expressed politely as in "let's agree to disagree", but I sensed he was furious. Anyway, that was just one moment, and I remained professional and polite and it was soon forgotten.

 

So he did submit the letter to all institutions I asked him to, however I got rejected at all of them. I never really knew what he wrote as I did not ask him to disclose the contents, and as he did not offer to disclose it I thought it would be improper to ask. Yet, the following year I applied again to some of the institutions I had applied to the previous year, and to some new ones. I decided to ask the same referees to submit a letter, except for my former boss. I got letters of acceptance from all! (I did not apply to 15 schools like some of you here, but to 5). So, even though I have no proof that that particular referee was a reason for all of my rejections the previous year (quite possibly he might not be the only reason, yet I suspect that he had had part in it).

 

So, my advice to all would be when selecting a referee, try to browse through your mind any moments of inconvenience with this person, even if otherwise the cooperation was great, because you can never really know what's going on in the minds of other people and whether they are holding some grudges for whatever reasons. I know that it's not always possible to tell, sometimes you might come to a moment when you realize that a particular person might not be the best fit for a referee, even if he or she seems so at first. Select your referees so that you would be absolutely sure that they're on your side and want you to succeed. Good luck to all.

 

Oh and yes, I forgot to say. I don't think it makes much sense in asking - would you please write a GOOD letter of recommendation for me? A professor that wants to support you doesn't need to be reminded that the letter should be good. And besides, the word recommendation in itself has a very positive connotation; someone who is recommending you is doing so because he or she believes you are capable of doing the work for so and so reasons. Good and recommendation in this context are tautological.