Register at two institutions?

[simboxon]

Hi folks,

 

I am in the spring cycle admissions, and I am applying to European PhD programmes. I have been accepted to a UK top 10 university with an excellent funding package, and to my first choice university on the continent. I prefer my first choice, but they have not given me funding. My supervisor at the UK university however has said that he would have no problem with me living on the continent (in the city where my first choice Uni is) and 'commuting in' for supervisions and relevant seminars - probably once or twice a month. I have no teaching obligations.

 

My question then is this: what do people think of the possibility of accepting BOTH offers? Taking the money from the UK, and the extra supervision, plus being registered and supervised by my first choice Uni. I know that I cannot submit two PhDs at the end - that would be plagiarism - but maybe I could just withdraw from the UK Uni and submit at my first choice. I realise that my supervisor at UK Uni is unlikely to be very impressed with my withdrawing, and the faculty there unlikely to be happy either, but perhaps I could just be a bit discreet about the set-up until the end. In any case, the supervisor in the UK uni is not really a specialist in my field (one of the reasons I'm not enthused about that offer), so I doubt that he could 'damage' my reputation when I do eventually withdraw.

 

What do people think? Am I crazy for considering this? Is it immoral? Imprudent? Illegal? A brilliant coup?

 

All the best,

 

Political Scientist

[XYZMan]

Don't do it.  It's dishonest and you will make a lot of enemies in your field.

[zabius]

Is it immoral? Imprudent? Illegal? A brilliant coup?

 

Yes, yes, yes, and no.

 

I'm pretty sure that this would be in direct violation of both schools' policies, and you would most likely get kicked out of both programs once they found out (and they inevitably would... probably rather quickly). Maybe it's possible (I don't know much about European schools), but I'd imagine that most schools have rules in place which prevent you from enrolling in another institution while you are in attendance at theirs. Many schools here in the US make you agree to not accept any other offers when you formally accept theirs.

 

Beyond that, though, it is unethical and, as Iskawaran pointed out, could make you a lot of enemies at both schools. So, please don't try to do this. Pick the school that you like better (the UK school sounds like the clear winner... a prestigious program that is also well funded) and stick with it. Then, if you'd like, start a professional collaboration with the other school. That's legal, ethical, and not all that uncommon.

Edited April 2, 2013 by zabius

[TakeruK]

Even though two others have already said don't do it, I think this is such a bad idea that I feel compelled to add my "no don't do it!!!" vote as well!! It is academic dishonesty!

[fuzzylogician]

Any kind of arrangement where you feel you need to keep information secret from one/both institutions is dishonest and frankly a terrible(!) idea. You'll burn bridges in your field and furthermore might get into legal trouble because you'll be abusing one institution's good intentions. Do you think no one will find out that you were being funded and advised by one school but ended up double-enrolling and receiving your degree from another school? Who would want to hire someone with such a track record of abuse and dishonesty?

The only way this kind of arrangement could work is if you're upfront about it and somehow arrange for supervision from both schools with some kind of partial residency requirement at both. I'm guessing that it'll be too complicated and will not work out because it'd be a bureaucratic nightmare for both schools. BUT, lying and cheating is no way to solve this problem.

[wtncffts]

Yeah, just adding my voice to the chorus: terrible idea practically and ethically. I think it's hilarious that you're worried about plagiarism but not this plan (or at least not enough to immediately think it's terrible).

[sansao]

You're also potentially holding up another student's progress. Please don't.

[mrmolecularbiology]

Well good news is you already sound like a politician. 

[Andean Pat]

Well good news is you already sound like a politician. 

hahaha I thought the same!!!

 

Now, really, please DO NOT it. I know you feel tempted and you needed someone to tell you it's OK but the truth is such an universal value that it is very difficult to dodge. Honestly, I thought I had not completely grasped what you meant to do... Making a decision necessarily implies leaving something behind, that's life. So even if you skip through this one, you may have to choose at some point. Since you are applying for graduate school, you are mature enough to make an adult choice and bearing the consequences. Take your time to think about it, but clearly you will be happy in both places  

[JungWild&Free]

 So even if you skip through this one, you may have to choose at some point.

 

Don't skip through this one.  Make the choice.  You are basically talking about theft, and I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that you would be making yourself vulnerable to having to reimburse the school for your funding, or even possibly a lawsuit once they realize that you were fraudulently enrolled and accepting funding. This financial "shortcut" could end up costing you a lot of money.

[student12345]

A haiku to summarize the thread:

Don't don't don't don't don't,

Don't don't don't don't don't don't don't,

You might get sued, don't

Edited April 4, 2013 by kimolas

[simboxon]

Thanks for all the replies! So... there seems to be a pretty good consensus that it's a really terrible idea, that it's probably illegal, and that I might get sued. Let me put the situation in a bit more context to see if any of you change their mind.

 

1) I have powerful, personal reasons to be in this other, European country (think family and relationship), and a UK PhD is really not going to be very useful in getting a job there. 2) The funding is external, that is, the UK university won't be out of pocket. I also think (I've read the conditions pretty carefully) that the funding is offered with the only condition that I enrol for three years in the UK program. On my plan I would do that. 3) I have since met someone who does this! They are using a big scandinavian PhD scholarship to do an Oxbridge PhD simultaneously (in a different topic, but the same field). 4) A teacher at the European university actually recommended I use this strategy...

 

So, any fresh thoughts? If it is not illegal, why is it unethical? Surely academic honesty doesn't require 'full disclosure', and many academics work simultaneously at different institutions...

 

[zabius]

It's unethical because you're being dishonest and manipulative. You do not plan to tell the UK school your intentions-- in your initial post, you say that you intend to keep the faculty in the dark until the end when you withdraw. That is dishonest; the UK school would be under the impression that you were using their funds to attend their program, not someone else's. There is no universe in which that is ethical; purposefully withholding information from someone is dishonesty-- it's that simple. And academic dishonesty can get you suspended from your program and seriously cripple your future career prospects.

 

You say that the funding is external. Where exactly is it coming from? If it requires you to enroll for three years at the UK program, then obviously it's linked somehow to that program and not truly external. If you can't legally transfer the funding to the other European school by contacting the funding agency and filing the appropriate paperwork, then that's a pretty clear sign that you aren't able to use that funding there, and you shouldn't try to do so anyway via this underhanded, secretive scheme of yours. It doesn't matter if the funding is coming from the UK school or the UK government or a private agency that requires you to study at a UK school... if a requirement for the funding is to enroll at the UK school for three years, the implication is that the funding is for work done at that UK school, not somewhere else.

 

On top of all of this, it is unethical to take up two admission spots when you are just one person. It's like someone taking up two seats on a bus/train while there are other people standing. There are tons of applicants out there on waiting lists for both of your schools, and by accepting both offers you are unfairly preventing someone else from attending a graduate program. If you're selfish enough, that won't matter to you... but it is still unethical.

 

The only way to do this right is to tell both schools upfront exactly what you plan to do. You need to tell the UK school that you plan to use their money to study somewhere else and then ditch them once enough time has elapsed to prevent the funding from being taken away from you. Then you need to tell the other school that you plan to simultaneously enroll in a different institution just to use their funding. Both schools need to know that you will be officially accepting two offers at the same time. There can be no lying... contrary to what you think, academic honesty does require full disclosure, and both schools need to hear the full story with all of the details. There's a very good chance that neither school will be impressed with this plan, and you should be prepared for one or both of them to tell you "no" and rescind your offer if you attempt it behind their backs. Just because one teacher at the European school is okay with the idea doesn't mean that the school as a whole will be. You need to talk to everyone involved-- your advisor, the head of graduate studies, and higher-ups in the graduate school itself at both institutions. They all need to be okay with it.

 

If you do try this without telling anyone your intentions, prepare to make a lot of enemies. It is inevitable that people will find out what you did-- don't think that they won't. Even if you manage to keep everyone in the dark until you withdraw from the UK school (which is unlikely), they're going to know that something's up when you withdraw. It would be incredibly easy for them to look you up and see that you had been enrolled in another institution all along. So it's not a matter of *if* they find out, but when. And when they do, you'll need to be prepared for some really unfavorable consequences. People within a given field communicate extensively, and word will get around. The guy at the UK school may not be a specialist in your specific subfield, but that doesn't matter at all. I study behavioral entomology, but if I pissed off a professor who specializes in something else (ecology, systematics, IPM... it doesn't matter), you can bet that that professor would tell the others and the news would spread like wildfire. The same would happen in your situation, and this would be damaging to your entire career. Not only would the people at the UK school contact the people at the European institution (who might be so displeased at your dishonesty that they suspend you from their program entirely), but they'll also contact their colleagues at other schools to warn them about you. Good luck finding a job after graduation with so many people in your field harboring a very unfavorable opinion of you! Even if you can manage to apply to a job with someone who has not heard about your past, that employer could very well call up your old PhD advisor for information about you (this happens very often)-- and then that employer would get the news and probably reject your application then and there. Ask yourself... what would you think if you were that employer? Here's a job candidate who has a track record of being dishonest and underhanded-- would you want him working in your organization? Would you feel that you are able to trust him? Absolutely not.

 

I'm not trying to scold you or anything. I'm trying to advise you to not do something that could damage your entire career as well as unfairly prevent another deserving applicant from getting into one of these programs. Just because you know someone else who did something similar does not make it right. If that person did it underhandedly too, then it's unethical for all of the same reasons that I described here. If he did it openly, though, then that should be a clear sign to you that the only way that this arrangement can work is if you are honest and fully disclose your entire plan to both schools.

 

When academics work simultaneously at two institutions, it's because they've arranged to do so openly and legally. There is a huge difference between an open collaboration with another university or serving as an adjunct faculty member at a different institution and the type of secretive, dishonest scheme you're thinking about. The former two arrangements do not keep anyone in the dark; both institutions know the details of the arrangement, and the people participating in that arrangement have gone through all of the official channels and done all of the right paperwork to set it up. You would not be doing that. You would be lying (by omission) and hoping that you don't get caught.

 

My advice is to go to the European school if you have powerful, personal reasons to be in that country. Defer your admission for a year if you need time to secure truly independent funding via legal and ethical means. Forget about the UK school and their funding-- it's only for people going to that school. Just suck it up and accept that you can't have your cake and eat someone else's cake too. Pick one program and stick to it, for your own sake.

Edited April 8, 2013 by zabius

[TakeruK]

 Surely academic honesty doesn't require 'full disclosure', and many academics work simultaneously at different institutions...

 

Zabius already gave a ton of very good reasons why what you are suggesting is unwise and unethical. I'm shocked that you think "academic honesty doesn't require full disclosure". I want to explain to you why this is not the case, using different examples! 

 

1. I think "full disclosure" is one of the foundations of academic honesty. When I read a paper, I am trusting that the authors have disclosed everything relevant to the situation. When I see that they reported, say, 30 trials with X outcome and 10 trials with Y outcome, I'm trusting that they had fully disclosed all of their results. It would be academic dishonesty if the authors actually performed 100 trials, but then threw out the results from 60 trials with Y outcome in order to present their result that X outcome is more likely than Y outcome. You can obviously generalize this to other important parts of a paper. I would expect the authors to have fully disclosed all of their methods -- it would be dishonest to tell the reader that they followed protocol A, but they had actually modified it to include some step not mentioned in the paper. I'm not saying these things don't actually happen in the real world. Academics have fabricated data and/or manipulated data in order to reach a desired conclusion. In many cases, this results in retraction of the paper and even resignations. Sometimes, these are malicious and intentional, but sometimes it also happens because of poor scientific practice or ignorance of proper statistical analysis.

 

2. Another case where "full disclosure" is core component of academic honesty is that I would expect authors of a paper to disclose any relevant competing interests. In some journals, the authors are required to make a statement at the end to disclose any conflicts of interests (maybe they are funded by an agency that has a financial interest in their result). 

 

Of course, absolute full disclosure is not necessary -- only those that are relevant. When I applied to grad school, I didn't fully disclose every detail of my life. I would recommend others to not disclose any irrelevant details that might cause them to be discriminated against. However, what you are proposing here is definitely relevant information that must be disclosed if you want to keep your integrity as an academic. 

[Andean Pat]

Seriously, you said can commute to the UK from that other country, how far away will you be from your family if you moved? 

 

And besides, do you really want to work with an advisor that supports such unethical, illegal, dishonest strategy?

 

Finally, if you do not intend to properly attend and graduate at the UK institution, be a man and reject that offer. You can't have it both ways. 

[misskira]

It's simple.  Run it by both programs and see if they agree to it.  if so, great!  Carry on.  If not, you have your answer, and best to pick one or the other.

[simboxon]

@Andean, I think a Euro-PhD is a bit different from a US-PhD. I can commute to the UK from just about anywhere in Europe with an airport and a library as my only responsibility is to meet with my supervisor once a month. I'm also, frankly a bit surprised at how moralistic everyone is! I understand Zabius's point that I'm withholding a place from another candidate, but other than that I really don't see the harm. Didn't you Americans coin the phrase 'business, not personal'? TakeruK's comments about full disclosure are aimed solely at intellectual integrity - and indeed, my major concern initially was was plagiarism! Anyway, I feel that maybe the whole idea and process of doing a PhD in the States is maybe too different to really make a good comparison. Do any Europeans have ideas/feedback?

[student12345]

Surely the European faculty at the institutions you're thinking about cheating will have ideas/feedback for you. 

Edited April 10, 2013 by kimolas

[wtncffts]

@Andean, I think a Euro-PhD is a bit different from a US-PhD. I can commute to the UK from just about anywhere in Europe with an airport and a library as my only responsibility is to meet with my supervisor once a month. I'm also, frankly a bit surprised at how moralistic everyone is! I understand Zabius's point that I'm withholding a place from another candidate, but other than that I really don't see the harm. Didn't you Americans coin the phrase 'business, not personal'? TakeruK's comments about full disclosure are aimed solely at intellectual integrity - and indeed, my major concern initially was was plagiarism! Anyway, I feel that maybe the whole idea and process of doing a PhD in the States is maybe too different to really make a good comparison. Do any Europeans have ideas/feedback?

 

Seriously, it's clear from all your responses that you have no intention of genuinely soliciting advice. We've all said the same thing, and you dismiss it out of hand and call us 'moralistic'. What you really need to do is create another profile and then post a response to yourself, because that's the only way you're going to get any validation for what you've clearly already decided.

[simboxon]

Seriously, it's clear from all your responses that you have no intention of genuinely soliciting advice. We've all said the same thing, and you dismiss it out of hand and call us 'moralistic'. What you really need to do is create another profile and then post a response to yourself, because that's the only way you're going to get any validation for what you've clearly already decided.

That's a bit snippy... I mainly meant that the differences between US schools and EU schools might explain why I'm hearing different things from the replies on this thread and people I've asked for advice in the flesh. After all, you stay at the institution for 5-6 years versus our 3(+), you tend to have to teach and work as research assistants, we do not, US PhDs almost all want academic jobs, EU PhDs do not. The list goes on. I really am interested in feedback/comments, including all the ones made (though I found the homogeneity of the feedback surprising). Indeed, the consensus has made me reconsider parts of my plan (I don't think I'll withdraw from the funded program, but rather from the unfunded program at the end). However, I was wondering if it was really such a bad idea, or whether cultural differences also explained part of the reaction.

 

@Kimolas, I did say that one of the lecturers recommended this approach...

Edited April 10, 2013 by simboxon

[wtncffts]

Maybe I was a bit snippy. But I don't think this is a cultural difference thing. As I read it, this boils down to you taking funding (from wherever it comes) to attend one school, which is a contract: they allow you to enroll, give you funding, and thus expect you to go through their program. Why do you think schools even take graduate students? Out of generosity? They give you resources and expect you to 'represent' their name by graduating and doing good research, etc. The fact that you have no intention of graduating and, especially, that your plan is to keep the whole thing covert until the 'last minute', is dishonesty universally. As some have said, if you can arrange this in an open and transparent way where both schools know what you're doing, great.   

[zabius]

You've been asking all of us for advice, but have you asked the relevant people at both schools what they think? You say that you have talked to one professor at the EU school, but really, you do need to talk to people at both schools-- don't pick and choose which people you consult based on who you think will tell you what you want to hear. You need to talk to everyone involved. Seriously, just tell your POI at the UK school and your POI at the European school what your plan is. Don't leave out any details-- tell them exactly where you plan to work, which funding you plan to use, and that you intend to withdraw from one school several years down the road. Then see what they think. I'm willing to bet that they'll agree with most of the opinions that you've heard in this thread.

 

Everyone in this thread has given you very good advice. It sounds like the ethics argument is not really resonating with you, though, which is a little worrisome. I'm not sure how you can't see this as an unethical decision. But it is... this isn't a matter of cultural differences, but rather something that would almost certainly be seen as universally immoral by everyone in academia.  If you're not buying that, then ask the people at both schools (not just one person at one school) and let them explain it to you. They might succeed in convincing you where we have failed, as I'm almost positive that this isn't something that they would agree to. That one professor at the EU school may be okay with it (which honestly just makes me question his integrity as a professor), but I'll bet that the professors at the UK school might not be so happy with this plan.

 

Also, if you still don't see this as a moral dilemma and you're the type who responds better to "personal benefit" arguments, then consider the terrible, detrimental effect that this can have on your career. The risk can't possibly be worth it, right? The damage to your reputation within your field wouldn't be trivial... it would be a blemish that would follow you around forever. There are people whose whole careers have been shattered by academic dishonesty! And that's what this is-- academic dishonesty. It's not plagiarism, but there's more to academic dishonesty than just plagiarism.

 

Again, the only way to do this properly is to tell everyone involved at both schools what your plan is (every relevant detail) and get everyone's approval before even attempting it. It sounds like you know that your plan to study at both institutions probably won't work out, and that you're looking for just one person to assure you that it will. But even if you find that reassurance, it isn't going to help you when you're several years into your PhD and have angered a bunch of people by being dishonest, perhaps to the point that they suspend you from the PhD program(s).

 

At the end of the day, the choice is yours. No one can stop you from enacting this plan, as immoral and potentially illegal as it may be. But I really, honestly do think that if you try to do what you have planned and keep your true intentions in the dark, then several years from now we'll be hearing about you on some academic mailing list (not in a good way, of course) and be spreading your story around as a cautionary tale to future applicants. Do you really want to be that guy?

Edited April 10, 2013 by fuzzylogician
Typo fixed!

[JungWild&Free]

That's a bit snippy... I mainly meant that the differences between US schools and EU schools might explain why I'm hearing different things from the replies on this thread and people I've asked for advice in the flesh. After all, you stay at the institution for 5-6 years versus our 3(+), you tend to have to teach and work as research assistants, we do not, US PhDs almost all want academic jobs, EU PhDs do not. The list goes on. I really am interested in feedback/comments, including all the ones made (though I found the homogeneity of the feedback surprising). Indeed, the consensus has made me reconsider parts of my plan (I don't think I'll withdraw from the funded program, but rather from the unfunded program at the end). However, I was wondering if it was really such a bad idea, or whether cultural differences also explained part of the reaction.

 

I work at an institution which is full of EU PhDs and educated professors, and when I circulated this story among the colleagues in my department, every reaction was the same regardless of the origin of their degree (complete shock and disbelief that you are considering this).  You seem to read that everyone's disapproval comes from some puritanical American sensibility but, in reality, you are talking about taking money to do something, saying you are going to do it without ever intending to and then dropping out after you have served enough time to get off scot-free with the money.  I'm pretty sure in any country, that would be both dishonest and obviously wrong.  If you don't like the word morality, choose a different one: honesty, integrity, honor.

Edited April 10, 2013 by JungWild&Free

[zabius]

It sounds like the ethics argument is really resonating with you, though, which is a little worrisome.

 

Of course, that should have said, "It sounds like the ethics argument is not really resonating with you, though, which is a little worrisome." I didn't catch that typo before the option to edit my post had expired.

[fuzzylogician]

 

Of course, that should have said, "It sounds like the ethics argument is not really resonating with you, though, which is a little worrisome." I didn't catch that typo before the option to edit my post had expired.

 

Typo fixed!

 

OP: maybe I've been corrupted by my US institution, but I am an international student and did my MA in a EU institution. I can't imagine anyone there thinking that this is a good idea.