Overwhelming

[Pretty_Penny]

Hi PsychGirl1,

 

I would love to a take a weekend off, but my advisor already has the opinion that I don't do anything. I mean really, she always asks me "did you read this?", "what are you doing over the weekend?", and just this morning "did you even think about this?" Even if I make progress on something, if it's not exactly what she wants I have to deal with these demeaning remarks. It's discouraging because I spend more time working than anyone else I know.

 

I do believe she thinks this approach is the best way to turn me into a good scientist. Unfortunately, I don't think she understands that it truly does not work for everyone. It is killing my self-confidence to the point where my anxiety over seeing her starts 24 hours in advance of our meetings and I go in already defeated. Just today she told me that having a discussion with me feels like giving an exam and that talking about these things should be fun. It is absolutely not fun for me because I know if I say the wrong thing (as happened today) I will be told I need to be more prepared or that I don't think enough or whatever. I mean really she told me I should be thinking about this 24/7 - in the shower, in the car - and that it should be a part of who I am. I think this works for some people, but not everyone. And it's not that I don't think about things but that I don't feel comfortable discussing them with her based on our history. But I don't feel like I can just say that.

 

To be fair, I am sure I am not doing my best work. It's kind of hard to do anything at this point. I'm at a loss. I don't want to leave, but feel like I am not cut out for this. Everyone else here insists I am and that I can't be sure until I experience work in a different lab, but I am not sure they will allow me to switch, or that I can even make it through the process of switching. I feel trapped and miserable and almost want to check myself into a mental health center just to escape it all. I'm also having a hard time determining if my mental representation of her is accurate, or if I'm being unfair.

 

I think what happened was, she overloaded me at the beginning of the semester and then got angry at my performance without realizing how much I had going on. I therefore developed this idea of her as unreasonable and kind of a bully, and now I see every one of her actions as support for this representation (there's some name for this in social psych - I can't remember exactly what it is). Because I believe this to be true about her, I get really anxious when thinking about or working on anything directly related to her or the lab, resulting in me probably not having my best performance and leading to more reprimands from her and basically it's a vicious cycle. And I want out.

 

Sorry it this was kind of rambling. Even if no one responds, it helps me to write my thoughts down.

[Lisa44201]

You've developed a conditioned response to her, I think - it's Pavlov in the form of anxiety-provoking stimuli.

 

Please do keep the appointment with the Counseling Center; whether you stay in that lab or not, they can help you break that anxiety trigger -> response cycle.

[Karajan]

I just wanted to let you know that I'm so sorry you're going through this.  Everything is going to be OK.  There will come a time when you will be able to look back on this, and things will have worked out.  

[PsychGirl1]

You've developed a conditioned response to her, I think - it's Pavlov in the form of anxiety-provoking stimuli.

 

Please do keep the appointment with the Counseling Center; whether you stay in that lab or not, they can help you break that anxiety trigger -> response cycle.

 

I agree with this- this is sorta what I was getting to.

 

Look, at this point, the relationship isn't great. Obviously continuing in the way you have been isn't going to impress her or do anything. Even if you work all weekend, it sounds like she will still make a comment that upsets you. Email her, tell her you're taking the weekend off- tell her you're going somewhere where you wont' have access to the internet if you have to- and you will respond to emails early Monday morning. Then take two days for yourself. Do whatever you want to do, see your friends, and have a drink (or three or four).

 

At some point, you need to decide it's not you. Relax, loosen up, and be yourself. If she says that you should know something, ask her for some good reference or review articles on the topic. Bring up things you've been thinking about- after doing some lit review- and if she says it's stupid, keep it in your back pocket in case you move labs. I feel like she is sorta trying to encourage you but has no idea how. So again, repeat to yourself: you're trying really hard, and it's not working. Consider this rock bottom. So just relax- can't get worse. Don't take every comment she says internally, don't be afraid of what you say- you already think she thinks you're stupid anyway, so what does it matter?- and just start speaking what is on your mind. Trust me- it's a hard process, but I went through it myself. And while you're working on this approach, shop around for your other options in case things don't get better. People switch advisors and programs all the time. This one woman does not determine your life, your career, or anything else about you.

[Pretty_Penny]

Thanks everyone!

 

PsychGirl1, you're right! I just need to relax. I went to counseling today and found it very helpful and validating. It's also validating that the undergraduates in the lab have recently been voicing concerns similar to my own. I do have one question though. I plan on going home for Thanksgiving break the week after the next. I have tickets bought to fly out the Sunday before Thanksgiving and to return the Saturday after. The university is closed during this time. Going home is very important to me, as I haven't seen my family since August, and Thanksgiving is generally a holiday I spend with extended family. I plan on going home for the entire week because it doesn't make sense for me to spend a thousand dollars to go home for just three days; plus it is more expensive to fly closer to the holiday.

 

At the beginning of the semester, my advisor asked when I would be gone and I told her only over the holidays (e.g., Thanksgiving, Christmas) when the university is closed. She was fine with that, which is why I went ahead and bought my tickets. But now I am terrified to bring it up, which is why I haven't yet. The senior grad student in the lab asked if I'm planning to go home and I said yes and she asked if I had talked to our advisor and I said no and she suggested that I do, which I thought sounded rather threatening (though that may be my bias talking).

 

I plan to talk to her about it in our Monday meeting. I have what I plan to say completely thought out. I talked it over with friends and family, as well as my therapist, who thought it sounds "perfectly acceptable." Basically I'm going to remind her of the conversation we had, say I plan to go home and that I'm willing to keep working over break, and ask what she wants to me work on. My therapist had suggested sending an email before the Monday meeting saying all of this and that we can talk then about what I should be working on, but my advisor hates email. She generally responds with "let's discuss this in person." But maybe it would make her less angry and likely to lash out if I emailed earlier? What do you guys think?

Edited November 15, 2013 by Pretty_Penny

[danieleWrites]

Your therapist's suggestion that you email her with this information is a good one. Email it to her, so she can read it and have her fit over the information where you don't have to see her react. But since you know she prefers to speak with you in person, at the end of the email, let her know that you'll be by her office at whatever time to speak with her about it. She really has no right to dictate what you do during your weekends and holidays. Now, she does have some say in what you do with the first two days of the week, since school is in session and you're skipping town anyway. You can expect her to throw her weight around about that, and she'll likely get snippy about the work you're not doing over the break. Sending her the email first gives you some peace of mind. She knows about it before hand, so you can practice what to say to her when you see her Monday rather than tell her and then wait for her to react.

 

I think you have a power-struggle issue. Not that you're involved in a power struggle, but the fact that a power imbalance exists, and neither of you are doing a good job in communicating across the power divide. She doesn't seem to realize that most people need to be praised by the person that hold their future in his/her hands, at least once in a while. The "this is what you're doing right" thing is critical to build or shore up confidence, to keep the student motivated and challenged, and to give the student permission (though the accuracy of that word depends on individual students) to do things on their own. A few, genuine words of praise can do wonders. Most people involved in evaluating large numbers of people over an extended period of time tend to get very focused on the things that need to be fixed to the point of excluding what's going well. It saves time and, in the mind of the evaluator, it should be obvious to the evaluatee that some things are going well because they weren't mentioned. The ol' "no news is good news" thing. It tends to come across to the students as hyper-critical, rather than time-saving. So, here she is, either unaware or uncaring that students need some nurturing. You are colleagues, to the extent that you're doing independent scholarship, but you're not colleagues. She's not thinking about things from your perspective. You, on the other hand, aren't communicating with her, either. It's not because you're not trying (you very obviously are), but because you're not speaking a language she's parsing. You say: this isn't clear, what needs to be clarified; she hears: validate me! Obviously, this does not work.

 

It doesn't help that she's got a brusque demeanor or an inability to adapt to the teaching style a student requires. Perhaps you need to toughen up a bit, and learn to deal with the eat or be eaten way of the academic world, but beating you down doesn't teach that. It just teaches you to be afraid of and not trust the teacher. But, you can't change her. You've done what you can by trying to speak with her about the relationship, and then talking to the DGS when that failed. The trick is to adapt yourself.

 

You're afraid of her (to an extent). You do not trust her. You're to the point where you think an undergraduate is capable of threatening you with her. It's making you miserable. You can't change her, right? But you can change you. Defang the beast, as it were. This means working around her. When you hand over your work for critique, make note of the problems she wants you to fix, and then go elsewhere for more detailed feedback. She says that something is unclear, thank her, and then go elsewhere. Have a fellow student help out, a different professor, the local writing center, whatever. Form a sort of study group with your cohort, where you help each other with your work. One of the problems many grad students face is a lack of a support system. We're usually in a new school, in a new city, and surrounded by people we don't know. The deep friendships that got us through high school, and even undergrad, aren't there any more. Make a support system out of your cohort. You're not the only one flailing around in the deep end, hoping you don't drown. When the people you should be able to rely on (your adviser) fails you, find others to rely on.

 

The other trick is to hear her differently. When she says, "did you even think about it?!" Don't hear: "i think you're stupid and a waste of time." Hear this: "I do not know that I have the people skills of a rattlesnake and I think I'm doing my best to help you out, so I'm asking you to think about what you read by spitting venom." Do not internalize her personality defects as personal criticism. They come across that way, but just because she implies it, that doesn't mean you have to listen to it that way. Look for the helpful and important things in what she says and discard everything else. When you need a shot of praise, start with yourself. Every evening, before you go to bed, look yourself in the mirror and tell yourself one good thing you did academically. Every once in a while, drop by the office hours of other professors that are more likely to brighten your day and have a brief conversation. Ask them how the conference went, or if they think you should go to that conference, or tell them how helpful their class has been in such a such thing. Spending a few minutes with an authority figure that's going to smile when they speak with you can boost you a great deal.

 

Lastly, your therapist can help you figure out how to talk with your adviser. You can't get couples counseling (and if any relationships are in dire need of couples counseling, it's the grad student/adviser relationships), but you can get some tips, and you can have the therapist walk you through or role play scenarios to help you deal with her. You need some things from her, on the emotional front, that you just aren't going to get. So how can you replace her for those things? She's not the almightiest academic in the world, so while you do have to pay attention to her criticisms, you don't have to take them as gospel truth. If she says something is wrong, that doesn't mean you have to fix it her way to please her. You have to fix it, but you can fix it your way. Find  someone you can spend some time with talking about what's happening in your field, and will do so seriously and collegially.

[Pretty_Penny]

Hi DanieleWrites -

 

That's good advice! As I was reading what you wrote, I couldn't believe how well what you were saying matched up with what I was thinking/feeling!

 

Anyways, I just wanted to clarify that school is actually not in session Monday and Tuesday of the week of Thanksgiving. The official break is the 24th-30th and there are no classes at all that week so I'm not really skipping town early! Many people are going home the Friday before the week of Thanksgiving!

 

As for the work I will be missing, well, all I'm doing for the lab right now is reading and trying to come up with a new project now that my NSF is submitted. That can be done from anywhere, IMO.

 

Thanks for your input!

[TMP]

I've read over much of the thread.  It all sounds quite familiar to me.  I wouldn't say that I had similar issues in terms of workload but certainly the dynamics of the adviser-student relationship.  Remember though, no matter what, your health is #1 on your list.  Check yourself in the hospital if you have to to take a break from life.

 

First, I'm very glad to hear that you've sought therapy.  It will help you and your relationships.  You'll need to learn how to manage your stress and emotions as you move through academia.  You have to learn how to fight against the temptation to internalize all the negativity.  We all do want external validation; self-validation is just as important if not more.  One day you will have to learn to stand on your own two feet.  As my adviser said to me several times in my first year, "You need to learn to believe in yourself."  It took me a long time (and therapy) to genuinely believe in myself and my ability to succeed within my own limits.

 

Second, your adviser is right to point out that it's not helpful to the relationship when  you go behind the back like that.  Yes, you may have tried to make your issues clear but as someone said, you do need to yell "FIRE!" and stamp your feet.  It sounds like she's very tough and not flexible.  You need to develop the courage to push back when things become unreasonable (like your credit hours- that is insane!).  Trust, you're better off "practicing" that push back with your own adviser- you don't want to do it when you are a post-doc or an assistant professor.  Better learn early than later when your career is REALLY at stake.  She's also right to point out that it's not professional to go complaining about her to others and not complaining TO her.  My own adviser caught me doing it last summer and her response was, "If you're going to complain about me, then go elsewhere and work with someone else.  I don't want my graduate students to be complaining about me."  She was very angry and hurt; it's highly likely that your adviser was too.  As someone hinted, complaining about your adviser to others suggests that there are trust issues and raises a red flag on your part.  If other faculty get wind of this, then you might have trouble forming a committee because faculty don't want to work with a miserable graduate student (who will be a colleague).  It's an unwritten rule in academia.  Bringing your complaints to your adviser (instead of someone else) is definitely one of the most difficult things to do in an adviser-advisee relationship because... well... it's damn hard to break news that will affect the other person personally and professionally.  Know though, this will likely bring out the vulnerability in her so take advantage.

 

Adviser-adviser relationships are very difficult to navigate and be fraught because the adviser and advisee are invested in the latter's training and therefore it's natural that both will struggle to find a nice balance of give-and-take.  With the kind of questions that your adviser's asking you "have you read this?" or "What are you doing this weekend?"  they strike me as she does care.  Perhaps not in the right way but I suspect that she does care and only wants you to come out as a great scientist.  She wants you to stay on top of research- just make a mental note of any articles/readings she throws in your way and put it in your back pocket and more on.  Know that professors will always throw more readings at you than you can possibly EVER handle.  

 

Been there, done that with many of your issues with your adviser.  Except unlike you, I loved my adviser too much that I refused to do anything that might strain our relationship.  My avoidance to talk about tough stuff actually hurt our relationship for a while.  Like, when I met with her, it would always be pleasantries and she would have no idea that anything was amiss in our relationship.  Now we're in a better place- more willing to take chances, accept compromises, and communicate.  If I'm not clear with a comment on a paper, I'll go right up to her and say, "What do you mean by that?" and treat it as a teaching moment.  She's not afraid to chase me down on my readings for my comps if she senses that I'm doing more research than necessary instead.

 

Best of luck.

[nnnnnnn]

Your situation does sound terrible and I sympathize a lot. I read over the whole thing and two points stuck out to me a lot.

 

1) You said that you would give up on your NSF but then later mentioned that you submitted it. Well, I think it was a stupid idea to give up on it after all the time and stress you'd already spent on it, but that's besides the point. You can't complain about having too much work when you spend time on something you were specifically told to stop on.

 

2) She questions how you are spending your time. This is also something my adviser used to do to me. (I think the only thing that changed this matter is that I received outside funding and that his lab has grown enough that he can't keep track of us all.) You mentioned emailing her a rough calendar. Instead, make the most detailed calendar you can make and put in on google calendars or something public so that it is always there for her or anyone to see. Fill in things from sleeping to TAing to lab time and cover other items (free time, therapy time, shopping etc) with valid sounding things (writing center appointment, grading, etc). It may help to show her how absolutely booked you are, it was for me.

 

Finally, ask you labmates for advice. How are others dealing with her? Learn from them. If no one else is surviving then figure out a plan with the group and it may be easier.

[Pretty_Penny]

To nnnnnnn: To clarify, I never said I would give up the NSF. I said that that was their solution to fixing my relationship with my advisor. I didn't give it up because clearly the NSF was not the problem in our relationship.

 

To TMP: I did bring my complaints to my advisor first. She indicated she is not going to change. That is when I spoke with the DGS and my area coordinator.

 

Otherwise, both of you make good points. Thanks!

[TMP]

Glad to hear that I could be of help.  Unfortunately, sometimes we have to learn to live with people if they are not willing to change.  It's your choice of how you want to handle this reality and it's certainly worthwhile exploring strategies that might help you work around her personality and work style.

[TeaGirl]

I just read through this entire thread and wow. I sympathize but if I were in your shoes I would've gotten a new advisor about 2-3 weeks in. I know we're on a PhD forum, but I don't think it's acceptable that working on weekends is taken for granted even if we do pull an all-nighter or work the odd weekend when there's a deadline. You're a human being with rights and not a slave. Personality clashes are one thing but it's another when she asks you to work every single weekend when you've already put in all your weekdays, let alone telling you that you shouldn't be sleeping. What kind of person even says that!!!

 

You've gotten some good advice on this thread. I don't know what field you're in so I'm not sure how it works, but in my field especially in the first year, no one expects that your first advisor is going to be "the one." It's pretty common for students to switch. You just have to find a professor willing to work with you, and then politely inform your current advisor that it's not working out and you are going to switch. I switched advisors and all I had to do was email our graduate secretary the name of my new advisor and let my old one know that I was switching.

 

I feel like the power dynamic between you two is all tilted to her side. Maybe it's because I worked prior to starting a PhD but my advice is that you need to take some of that power back. I feel the only way to do that is to become more independent and develop an inner meter of how well you are progressing and what needs to be done, and care less about what she thinks. I think this is exactly what she's pushing you to do. It's hard but as long as you are looking for external approval from her, she's going to be the bogeyman. My second piece of advice is don't be available all the time. I can't stress enough how important this is in a power dynamic especially in a work/academic environment. If she emails you, you don't need to drop everything and respond. In fact, if she emails you on the weekend, unless there's a Monday deadline don't respond till Monday morning. You should really make this into an absolute rule.

 

And for goodness sake, take the weekends off and get some rest. I go nuts and get depressed if I don't get enough sleep and at least a day per week where I can decompress!

Edited December 6, 2013 by TeaGirl

[Loric]

I just want to chime in..

 

I went through a very similar situation on my first go-round to grad school. I quit, dramatically. I burned every bridge possible and went out in a blaze of glory.

 

While cathardic - I don't reccomend doing the same. You need to be looking to transfer. Things will not get better there and YOU wont get better mentally/emotionally there.  I'm just now trying to pick up the ashes of my burnout by reapplying a few years after the fact to a new program.

 

You need to transfer. Hold everything together as much as possible and get the hell out of Dodge.

 

You did everything right that you could. You need to find a new school.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Loric

[Loric]

And if you were wondering.. "How does one burn all their bridges in a big department?"

 

Send a single email when you quit saying "you may not use my work" refering to the items which were done on my own unpaid time and therefor were my property and not that of the university which had employed me. I killed.. I think.. 4 projects..? And set a major one back by a few months so that it was almost canceled?

 

All because after several meetings trying to get reasonable demands, and being told "suck it up, it's grad school" they still quarreled over who got me and at what time ("Just skip his class!" "She told you to skip my class?!?!?!").. no one got me.

[DropTheBase]

And if you were wondering.. "How does one burn all their bridges in a big department?"

 

Send a single email when you quit saying "you may not use my work" refering to the items which were done on my own unpaid time and therefor were my property and not that of the university which had employed me. I killed.. I think.. 4 projects..? And set a major one back by a few months so that it was almost canceled?

 

All because after several meetings trying to get reasonable demands, and being told "suck it up, it's grad school" they still quarreled over who got me and at what time ("Just skip his class!" "She told you to skip my class?!?!?!").. no one got me.

 

Now that is an exit!

[Loric]

Now that is an exit!

 

Yeah, per PhD comics, I was a "#2"

 

http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php?f=1019

 

You don't royally piss off the #2 if you want your projects to survive.