Dear Undergrad Rant

[Quantum Buckyball]

Dear Undergrad,

 

If you're unable to commit a minimum of 10 hrs/week in a lab please don't even bother to show up. I don't want you here even if you're just a volunteer.

 

My research progress is more valuable than your research credit. 

 

[DropTheBase]

I'm planning to eventually pick up an undergrad and I'm concerned about this exact situation. 

 

Are you not able to dismiss the undergrad? Do you have to wait until the end of the grading period?

 

DTB

[Eigen]

Depends on the PI and department. 

 

That said, I strongly advise you to look at undergrad researchers as a service to the field (from you), rather than something that will yield enhanced productivity. It will make your life much more pleasant moving forward. 

 

I usually try to find a piece of my current project that would be mildly interesting, but isn't crucial to my work moving forward. That, then, becomes their project. 

 

It then insulates me from either (i) their data being unusable for some reason or another, or (ii) from them not coming in frequently enough/not being efficient enough to yield said data in a reasonable amount of time. 

[TakeruK]

I agree with Eigen -- the point of having undergrads in the lab is to mentor and train them, not to get useful work out of them. But I can understand the frustration when someone else doesn't take something as seriously as you because it's not as important to them as you!

 

We don't know your situation so it might very well be that the undergrad is not even interested in working hard and is just a drain on the lab overall. Is the 10 hours minimum something that is required of them due to their research credit course? If they are not meeting the expectations of their research credit then it could important to talk to whomever is in charge of awarding/signing off on those credits.

 

It is usually true that a grad student can make more progress on a project much faster than an undergrad. But the same can be said for graduate students sometimes. I might take 20 hours to do something that an experienced faculty member can do in 5 hours. The point of having students assist you (undergrad or graduate) is not to increase the amount of productivity, but to increase the amount of competence in your lab/field.

[nnnnnnn]

Undergrads don't always really understand what they are getting into. It's a learning experience for them. Echoing other responses here: you're helping them rather than the other way around.

 

Put this way, it's a bit less frustrating (I think)... unless your PI is forcing you to work with them.

 

I'm really bad as a leader, so I always find this situation stressful...

[juilletmercredi]

I agree with the previous three comments too, but also want to argue that less than 10 hours a week probably isn't enough for this undergrad to learn much of anything, anyway.  That's less because they wouldn't do anything important during that time and more because they wouldn't learn the things necessary in a research environment in just 5 hours, for example.  I wouldn't want them putting on their grad school app that they did research with me for 6 months when it was only 5 hours per week. 

[Quantum Buckyball]

It's really difficult to get stuff done with only 10 hrs/week, especially when dealing with biological materials.

 

We actually have to obtain our samples from scratch and it can take up to a full week before you have something that is usable for some sort of  measurements. 

 

I wanted my undergrad/volunteer to be at least able to "shadow" me but it was very hard if they only show up 1 or 2 hours at a time, or they would start an experiment and have to leave in the middle of the experiment and won't show up again for another 3 or 4 days.

 

I'm sorry, but you just can't do that  when dealing with biological samples. Cells and proteins don't care if you have exams coming up or have to take Winter Break, they'll DIE if you don't pay attention to them.  

 

Edited December 7, 2013 by Quantum Buckyball

[St Andrews Lynx]

Man, I know flakey grad students that would pull a stunt like that.

 

That said: learning how to mentor less-experienced scientists is an important part of the grad school experience. If you go into industry as an entry-level scientist, then you will often be assigned interns & students as a way of assessing your "management ability" and testing to see if you could handle a promotion. And unfortunately in industry you'll get interns & students who (i) are keen but have no clue (ii) have little motivation (iii) didn't understand what they were letting themselves in for. 

 

Calmly explaining your expectations to the undergrad when they next appear I hope will make things more straightforward for both of you.

[CageFree]

Yeah, I think the lab environment definitely changes the role of a mentee. I could not hand my research over to an undergrad... at the most I could have them look for articles and book. :/

 

I'm curious as to the type of mentorship program you are doing...  Is it designed for students who WANT to go to grad school and are very serious, or is it designed to try and expose students to grad school in order to get them to go? And do they get any kind of "credit" for being your assistant? I ask because the expectations (from you and from whoever manages the program) may be a bit different. Sounds like the student you have isn't very mature or committed.... but then again, it could be that the program has told students they don't have to be all that serious/committed either. I dunno. A think a talk to the student might be in order to find out what exactly it is that they expect and what you expect from them.

[kaister]

I've been learning how to deal with this the past few months.  We have a bunch of undergraduate RAs, some are great, while others…echo the statement OP posted. It's frustrating and here's something of the things I've learned that maybe will help others:

 

1) Create an application process for undergrads who are interested in working with you.  It helps to weed out those who are just there to get "credit" and don't actually want to work and learn. You'd be surprise how easy it is to weed out the lazy students just by making an application where they have to fill in and articulate their thoughts.

 

2) TRUST YOUR GUT.  This is the biggest thing I've taken from this semester. I interview all my undergrad RAs before I take them on.  I had an uneasy feeling about two we took on this semester, turned out I was right, they were very unmotivated.  Left early or didn't show up for their hours, one eventually dropped out. When interviewing ask questions about what they're looking to gain out of the experience, etc and from their answers you can usually get a feel of what they're looking for, but trust your gut feeling.

 

3) Make it a requirement that they be able to devote good chunks of time (3-4 a day at least). Otherwise it's hard to gain meaningful experience.  When you start to take on new students, make this a requirement for the lab. I find that makes everything easier scheduling wise as well.

 

It's our job to teach them how research works and the responsibilities that come along with it. Try to give them a sense of ownership over things and that can often help make them more motivated to follow through with things. Also, address their behavior.  If an RA is not showing up or doing poor work, tell them.  In a very professional way of course.  Let them know you see what's going on and that you want them to re-engage in the lab, and that you want to make it known you see this happening.  You want to make it aware before it's too late not only to hopefully help them get on it, but also so they know for letters of recommendation. I assume most undergrads are doing this because they want experience and go to grad school.  Along with their grade for the research credit, dangle the idea of a good vs. bad letter of recommendation and hopefully that'll get them to shape up.

 

If all is lost and you try all these things and still no improvement, see if you can get new RAs.  I wouldn't keep a student like that on for the next semester.  I have a few I'm not letting stay on with us because of that.  I will allow people to "volunteer" but I won't let these type sign-up officially.

 

Despite all the bad that can come with it, mentoring can be really satisfying.  Eventually you'll get some RAs who are really motivated and are extremely helpful!

[Quantum Buckyball]

Long story short, my PI decided to get ANOTHER undergrad next semester and he has already committed to the student (another sophomore). Anyways, it sounded like this new incoming undergrad student is actually for another grad student and not for me (thank goodness). and that "another" grad student also made it very obvious that he doesn't want/need anymore undergrad assistant.

 

So now we have 4 grad students, 2 volunteers (1 undergrad, 1 postgrad), and 3 undergrads, for a total of 9 people in the group. As for right now, I have 1 undergrad and 1 volunteer working with me, and both of them are gonna be gone by this Friday and won't be back for another 5 weeks 

[Quantum Buckyball]

I've been learning how to deal with this the past few months.  We have a bunch of undergraduate RAs, some are great, while others…echo the statement OP posted. It's frustrating and here's something of the things I've learned that maybe will help others:

 

1) Create an application process for undergrads who are interested in working with you.  It helps to weed out those who are just there to get "credit" and don't actually want to work and learn. You'd be surprise how easy it is to weed out the lazy students just by making an application where they have to fill in and articulate their thoughts.

 

2) TRUST YOUR GUT.  This is the biggest thing I've taken from this semester. I interview all my undergrad RAs before I take them on.  I had an uneasy feeling about two we took on this semester, turned out I was right, they were very unmotivated.  Left early or didn't show up for their hours, one eventually dropped out. When interviewing ask questions about what they're looking to gain out of the experience, etc and from their answers you can usually get a feel of what they're looking for, but trust your gut feeling.

 

3) Make it a requirement that they be able to devote good chunks of time (3-4 a day at least). Otherwise it's hard to gain meaningful experience.  When you start to take on new students, make this a requirement for the lab. I find that makes everything easier scheduling wise as well.

 

It's our job to teach them how research works and the responsibilities that come along with it. Try to give them a sense of ownership over things and that can often help make them more motivated to follow through with things. Also, address their behavior.  If an RA is not showing up or doing poor work, tell them.  In a very professional way of course.  Let them know you see what's going on and that you want them to re-engage in the lab, and that you want to make it known you see this happening.  You want to make it aware before it's too late not only to hopefully help them get on it, but also so they know for letters of recommendation. I assume most undergrads are doing this because they want experience and go to grad school.  Along with their grade for the research credit, dangle the idea of a good vs. bad letter of recommendation and hopefully that'll get them to shape up.

 

If all is lost and you try all these things and still no improvement, see if you can get new RAs.  I wouldn't keep a student like that on for the next semester.  I have a few I'm not letting stay on with us because of that.  I will allow people to "volunteer" but I won't let these type sign-up officially.

 

Despite all the bad that can come with it, mentoring can be really satisfying.  Eventually you'll get some RAs who are really motivated and are extremely helpful!

 

 

 

Thank you for the feedback, I told my PI about creating an application process to make it more formal/serious and he agrees with me, and the current grad students should get involved in the admission process since we're gonna be the ones that spend the most of time with student (gotta make sure personalities match)

Edited December 11, 2013 by Quantum Buckyball

[Quantum Buckyball]

Yeah, I think the lab environment definitely changes the role of a mentee. I could not hand my research over to an undergrad... at the most I could have them look for articles and book. :/

 

I'm curious as to the type of mentorship program you are doing...  Is it designed for students who WANT to go to grad school and are very serious, or is it designed to try and expose students to grad school in order to get them to go? And do they get any kind of "credit" for being your assistant? I ask because the expectations (from you and from whoever manages the program) may be a bit different. Sounds like the student you have isn't very mature or committed.... but then again, it could be that the program has told students they don't have to be all that serious/committed either. I dunno. A think a talk to the student might be in order to find out what exactly it is that they expect and what you expect from them.

 

 

my PI wants me to give the undergrad a "mini" project, a project contains something I want to do in the "future". ... or "backup" plans