Rude program director response-- how would you feel?

[chemistrylife213]

Hey everyone--

 

I had already made my graduate school decision when my husband and I received notice that his job might be changing locations permanently. The graduate school that I had previously accepted, (which I very much want to attend) was very sympathetic to my situation and let me know that they would support me regardless of my decision to remain in that area. They even offered to write me letters of introduction to other graduate programs for a late admission or a Spring start-- of which I have been so appreciative.

 

My issue is this: I applied late admission to a school in the area where we might have moved, as it indicated on their website that although they had a preferred deadline, they considered all applications. I selected Spring admission, but mentioned that if Fall admission were available, I would be appreciative of being considered.

 

Not more than 2-3 days passed by when I received an email from the graduate admissions director that really hurt my feelings. He told me that it was such a bad thing that I applied without asking him if I could first (even though the website said that I could!), and even if their classes were full I was definitely not qualified for admission. If I took additional courses and worked in the field more, then maybe they could consider me for provisional admission in the Fall.

 

I did not want to go to this school initially; I only applied when it looked as though our family situation might change. However, the way that this director judged my abilities really hurt. I know that it might seem overly sensitive, but it felt as though he was just saying I wouldn't succeed in any graduate admissions.

 

Regarding my application-- I previously applied to ten top 20 phD programs in my field and was accepted at 9 of those ten programs. I have a good GPA, conference publications, 4 years of intensive research experience, and additional teaching experience. I take great pride in my work, and even though I had achieved so much success in my application cycle (and been accepted by my number one choice), I was deeply hurt by this message from the other program's graduate director.

 

I just sent a very brief reponse-- Thank you, please deactivate my file...essentially. I would never want to burn any bridges. But what really bothers me is--- what if that was the first school that I had tried to apply to? There aren't enough women in technical PhDs as it is-- why would someone think it's okay to respond in such a hurtful manner? Sure I know i need to have thick skin to succeed in academia-- but I think this applies where it's warranted, not to make others feel inadequate simply for the purpose of being rude?

[bsharpe269]

Wow that would bother me too.

 

Even though this was directed at you, I would try not to take it personally. For this guy to respond like this to a late application then he must seriously have something else going on unrelated to you No one gets this upset about a late application... if it was too late then most directors would just throw it out or send a stardard rejection. I am sorry that whatever this dude has going on was taken out on you. I would let it go, recognize your success, and not consider this program any longer. I would not want to attend a school where the director speaks to students like this. Best of luck in finding a program in your desired location with people who treat their students with respect!

[fuzzylogician]

I just sent a very brief reponse-- Thank you, please deactivate my file...essentially. I would never want to burn any bridges. But what really bothers me is--- what if that was the first school that I had tried to apply to? There aren't enough women in technical PhDs as it is-- why would someone think it's okay to respond in such a hurtful manner? Sure I know i need to have thick skin to succeed in academia-- but I think this applies where it's warranted, not to make others feel inadequate simply for the purpose of being rude?

 

He's a jerk. There are jerks out there. Unfortunately you are not currently in a position to do anything about this particular jerk (that is, you could try if you feel strongly about this, but I think it's likely to hurt you more than him), but generally I think the best way to fight jerks is go to school, be present (and loud) so they don't forget that girls can do kickass science, then graduate, train, and support other women who want to go into science. The more of us are out there, the harder it is for the jerks to do any damage.

 

That said, I'm sorry this happened to you and I hope things work out for you. 

[BeakerBreaker]

Even if that's the only school in the area, it doesn't sound like a place you'd want to go (unless it's really just one rotten apple, which is possible).  You could appeal to the dean of admissions/graduate school and explain what happened -- it doesn't sound like they even gave you a fair review, if you really wanted to attend.  They might also appreciate that kind of feedback.

[Eigen]

It sounds like a bad response, but just curious- was this program in your field?

 

I ask, because they mention you'd need additional course preparation, and you clarified your later application with "in my field". 

 

The response would make a bit more sense if you were jumping fields. His response sounds like, for instance, you have a Chemistry background and were applying to a chemical engineering/materials type field. Otherwise, I have no idea why he would think you didn't have the proper background to apply. 

 

I'm also curious as to why you think gender plays any role here, unless there's something in his response I'm missing?

[chemistrylife213]

Thank you everyone for your replies and words of encouragement-- I felt pretty down after that messges, so your positive responses did truly help.

 

Cup o'Joe-- thank you for your message as well. This program was in my field. With my phrasing there, I was just trying to indicate that some of the strongest schools in this discipline (at least, as far as the standard field specific rankings go) had accepted me, while this institution was indicating that I wasn't qualified to enter a PhD program without remedial work. Of course, any ranking system, should be taken with a grain of salt, but many people may see a difference between schools like Berkeley, UCSD, MIT, etc., and a smaller regional university. While certainly not all of the gradcafe results postings are accurate, my gpa and associated scores were at least a full std. dev above that which I looked at that were posted for this school. I have double majors in chem and EE and both have all of the requisite course work for PhD programs, though I only applied in one field. This is why I felt many of his choice of words were so hurtful, and I truly just did not understand.

 

I do not think my gender plays a role at all in the response sent to me by the director (if I did-- that would be a completely different story). What I was trying to convey is that I think it's right to tell *anyone* that s/he is unqualified or can't follow simple instructions (as he inferred about the deadline), when that is not the case. In a field like EE where women earn far fewer PhDs (asee puts it at about 17%), I think that's especially a bad idea if you're trying to recruit women to the field-- which may or may not be the case for a department. 

[12345678900987654321]

Let me get this straight: You are upset because someone told you that you're not qualified for admission? He did you a favor by taking time out to respond to you. I tell people all of the time that they're not qualified for admission. What makes you a special snowflake?

 

You'll need to grow some thicker skin if you want a PhD. 

[Gvh]

Let me get this straight: You are upset because someone told you that you're not qualified for admission? He did you a favor by taking time out to respond to you. I tell people all of the time that they're not qualified for admission. What makes you a special snowflake?

 

You'll need to grow some thicker skin if you want a PhD. 

 

A. Clearly the OP is a competitive candidate and B. Even if she wasn't, there is no reason for the director to be a dick about it. 

Edited June 5, 2014 by Gvh

[juilletmercredi]

Well, in some ways I agree with GradSecretary.

 

What I was trying to convey is that I think it's right to tell *anyone* that s/he is unqualified or can't follow simple instructions (as he inferred about the deadline), when that is not the case. In a field like EE where women earn far fewer PhDs (asee puts it at about 17%), I think that's especially a bad idea if you're trying to recruit women to the field-- which may or may not be the case for a department.

 

I, too, am baffled by the sentiment that it's somehow "not right" for a program director to tell anyone that they are unqualified for a program, or can't follow simple instructions.  I'm not saying that the program director was right in this particular instance, because I don't know the circumstances of it.  But of course some people are unqualified for some programs, and of course program directors and professors should tell those people that they are unqualified so they do not waste time attempting to reapply (at least not without improving themselves).  It doesn't matter if women earn fewer PhDs.  Part of the goal of pipeline programs is to make women more prepared to do STEM PhDs, which I wholeheartedly support (being a woman myself).  But refraining from telling a woman that she is unqualified to protect her feelings is not doing her any favors.  You're not giving her the information she needs to potentially improve her application.

 

I'm not going to judge you for feeling hurt, but I do agree that a thick skin is a requisite for science/academia, and that you probably shouldn't take this personally.  The program director is likely wrong about you, and he's being a jerk, but if he directs the program then you don't want to be there anyway.  The best thing you can do is distract yourself, move on to something else and forget about this whole thing.  The best way to move on is to live well and accomplish your goals some other way.  Prove him wrong (at a distance).

[gingin6789]

Let me get this straight: You are upset because someone told you that you're not qualified for admission? He did you a favor by taking time out to respond to you. I tell people all of the time that they're not qualified for admission. What makes you a special snowflake?

 

You'll need to grow some thicker skin if you want a PhD.

 

Hold on.  Woah.  I'm all for developing an ability to take harsh comments, but let's delve deeper, here, into the technicalities of the application process.

 

I didn't know that there were programs where applicants had to ask to apply! I thought you just filled out an application, and that's how they came to a decision.

 

So, since OP was able to apply online without the guy's permission, then it's this director's job to know that process. It sounds like this guy didn't even know the application process on his own university's website because he raged at OP telling OP that they needed his special permission to even apply!!! That's an oversight on HIS part, not OP's.  

 

If the director doesn't even know the application process, and if he doesn't know that folks are, YES, allowed to apply without his permission, then what kind of director is that?!  Seriously!  That's really upsetting, and I don't blame OP one bit!!

 

"But what if they just changed the system, and he didn't know?"  

 

He should have recognized that, hey, if a student was able to apply without asking his permission, maybe the system changed, rather than accusing an innocent applicant of trying to pull some kind of application trick behind his back!

 

The only reason I'm glad he was mean to OP is that now OP won't be stuck there!!  

 

Having a thick skin to take constructive criticism or rude comments from, perhaps, the lay public or undergraduates?  Absolutely!  Having a thick skin so you can let an underinformed grad director in the wrong walk all over you?  I call bullcrap.

Edited July 9, 2014 by gingin6789

[Sigaba]

Let me get this straight: You are upset because someone told you that you're not qualified for admission? He did you a favor by taking time out to respond to you. I tell people all of the time that they're not qualified for admission. What makes you a special snowflake?

 

You'll need to grow some thicker skin if you want a PhD. 

 

 

GradSecretary is correct. Fair or unfair, as graduate students, you will experience professors, and some administrators, standing on your heads and bouncing you off the walls. You will have to learn how to deal with these encounters in ways that don't throw you too far off track. In many cases, the better you respond to the criticism, the more confidence you'll inspire in professors, and they, in turn, will be more willing to mentor you.

 

IMO, it was a profound miscalculation by those members of BB who down voted GradSecretary. Have you noticed that GS has left and not returned? What was the point of chasing away a person for providing a very valuable look into how some academic departments operate? How many threads do we see each application season in which aspiring graduate students wonder how they might best approach departmental staff? Might GS have been a good source for guidance? 

 

Please, consider the advantages of learning how to listen and to accept without comment nor argument guidance from individuals higher up in Ivory Tower's food chain until you've had considerable seasoning as a graduate student. To be clear, you don't have to agree with the information you receive. You don't have to follow the guidance that's provided. You don't have to like the person who offers guidance. However, if you develop a habit for tuning people out because you don't want to hear what they have to say, do not be surprised if you find yourself surrounded by a deepening silence.

[TakeruK]

GradSecretary is correct. Fair or unfair, as graduate students, you will experience professors, and some administrators, standing on your heads and bouncing you off the walls. You will have to learn how to deal with these encounters in ways that don't throw you too far off track. In many cases, the better you respond to the criticism, the more confidence you'll inspire in professors, and they, in turn, will be more willing to mentor you.

 

IMO, it was a profound miscalculation by those members of BB who down voted GradSecretary. Have you noticed that GS has left and not returned? What was the point of chasing away a person for providing a very valuable look into how some academic departments operate? How many threads do we see each application season in which aspiring graduate students wonder how they might best approach departmental staff? Might GS have been a good source for guidance? 

 

Please, consider the advantages of learning how to listen and to accept without comment nor argument guidance from individuals higher up in Ivory Tower's food chain until you've had considerable seasoning as a graduate student. To be clear, you don't have to agree with the information you receive. You don't have to follow the guidance that's provided. You don't have to like the person who offers guidance. However, if you develop a habit for tuning people out because you don't want to hear what they have to say, do not be surprised if you find yourself surrounded by a deepening silence.

 

GradSecretary makes the perfectly correct point that being told you're not qualified for admission is a normal thing in academia and that's just how life is. 

 

Although I didn't downvote this post, I did see many of their other posts and my personal opinion is that this person's post are quite rude (such as this one) and not the environment I would want GradCafe to be and also not the type of person I would interact with in real life. Obviously, my opinions on what I personally want GradCafe to be are just my personal opinion--I'm not saying I should control how our community works but I think every member of the community should take some responsibility to cultivate the community they want.

 

Just as you advocate that posters like GradSecretary can contribute good for the community, I would like to advocate the opposite. I felt their posts are mostly rude, and sometimes extra snarky for no reason. I also do not think sentiments like "you need a thick skin to get a PhD / be in academia" is the right attitude I would want to see in my field in academia. When one receives rude comments, it's perfectly fine to call out that person's rudeness. As a junior person in my field, I don't like the way people tend to forgive/allow senior people to treat junior people crappy and say things like "well, you need a thicker skin". To be clear, I'm not talking about rejection--obviously that is how academia/life works. I am talking about unnecessary snark/rudeness or other inappropriate work behaviour and unprofessional conduct, as displayed in GradSecretary's post above. 

[12345678900987654321]

Oh wow! I was a topic of conversation. (I was having a blissful summer free grad student hand-holding.)

 

Yes, that comment was a bit rude. I probably should have left off the last two sentences. However, that doesn't change the meaning of my post. If my grad chair believes someone is not qualified they won't always respond.

[SymmetryOfImperfection]

GradSecretary is correct. Fair or unfair, as graduate students, you will experience professors, and some administrators, standing on your heads and bouncing you off the walls. You will have to learn how to deal with these encounters in ways that don't throw you too far off track. In many cases, the better you respond to the criticism, the more confidence you'll inspire in professors, and they, in turn, will be more willing to mentor you.

 

IMO, it was a profound miscalculation by those members of BB who down voted GradSecretary. Have you noticed that GS has left and not returned? What was the point of chasing away a person for providing a very valuable look into how some academic departments operate? How many threads do we see each application season in which aspiring graduate students wonder how they might best approach departmental staff? Might GS have been a good source for guidance? 

 

Please, consider the advantages of learning how to listen and to accept without comment nor argument guidance from individuals higher up in Ivory Tower's food chain until you've had considerable seasoning as a graduate student. To be clear, you don't have to agree with the information you receive. You don't have to follow the guidance that's provided. You don't have to like the person who offers guidance. However, if you develop a habit for tuning people out because you don't want to hear what they have to say, do not be surprised if you find yourself surrounded by a deepening silence.

 

Just seeing if I got this correct.

 

"Lowly graduate students should learn to stop backtalking a professor or administrator. If a graduate student has an opinion that differs from the professors, the graduate student should NOT try to reason with the professor. He/she shouldn't ask why either. He/she should take what the professor says as fact without talking back. Too many times, I've seen a lowly graduate student backtalk a professor, and its disgusting, because the graduate student is wrong most of the time. The only time a graduate student is right is when 500,000 graduate students backtalk a single professor. There is a reason why you are still just grad students and they're highly paid professors. Its because you think differently than the professors. Stop thinking like a grad student. Start thinking like a professor."

[ExponentialDecay]

[Eigen]

I feel like the CHE STFU Center For Professional Development is relevant here.

There was no inference you can't disagree, the point was that there are many, many times in life where it's better to simply listen, nod and smile, walk away and discard the incorrect advice. Think of platitudes like "choose your battles wisely" and "discretion is the better part of valor".

Learning that you can be perfectly satisfied with knowing you are correct without having to prove it to everyone else is a valuable skill for life in general. Not every statement you disagree with needs to be argued, and to be honest when there's a power differential, disagreeing about something that really isn't all that important to begin with.

Should you take a stand on issues you feel are morally worthwhile? Sure. But that certainly isn't the majority case.

And it has nothing to be with being a grad student, it's equally applicable to junior faculty in discussions with senior faculty, faculty working with administrators, administrators with the board of directors. Or heck, you with your spouse or that crazy person you meet on the street that's convinced you're an alien. Not all incorrect statements, suggestions, advice or ideas need to be refuted.

[SymmetryOfImperfection]

I feel like the CHE STFU Center For Professional Development is relevant here.

There was no inference you can't disagree, the point was that there are many, many times in life where it's better to simply listen, nod and smile, walk away and discard the incorrect advice. Think of platitudes like "choose your battles wisely" and "discretion is the better part of valor".

Learning that you can be perfectly satisfied with knowing you are correct without having to prove it to everyone else is a valuable skill for life in general. Not every statement you disagree with needs to be argued, and to be honest when there's a power differential, disagreeing about something that really isn't all that important to begin with.

Should you take a stand on issues you feel are morally worthwhile? Sure. But that certainly isn't the majority case.

And it has nothing to be with being a grad student, it's equally applicable to junior faculty in discussions with senior faculty, faculty working with administrators, administrators with the board of directors. Or heck, you with your spouse or that crazy person you meet on the street that's convinced you're an alien. Not all incorrect statements, suggestions, advice or ideas need to be refuted.

 

I am not disagreeing with what you say, but I do believe that Sigaba could have said it more diplomatically, and in a way that does not make it seem like he is taking sides. After all, the original poster came here to ask for advice, but possibly, mostly to vent frustration. I've already learned to not backtalk.

Edited August 2, 2014 by SymmetryOfImperfection

[Arcadian]

I previously applied to ten top 20 phD programs in my field and was accepted at 9 of those ten programs.

 

You're good. Fuck that guy who wrote to you.

 

/thread

Edited August 5, 2014 by Arcadian

[Sigaba]

I am not disagreeing with what you say, but I do believe that Sigaba could have said it more diplomatically, and in a way that does not make it seem like he is taking sides. After all, the original poster came here to ask for advice, but possibly, mostly to vent frustration. I've already learned to not backtalk.

 

You read my post incorrectly. I think your reading may have been filtered through some of the disappointing experiences you've shared in some of your previous posts.