How crazy do you have to be to take an unfunded MA?

[drownsoda]

This is the deal: I applied to Fordham's MA program and was notified of my acceptance today, although was also told that funding was not available "at this time." Bear in mind that this is my dream program and my dream school, I'm not a PhD reject who was handed the MA as a consolation either— I went into this knowing full well that funding for Master's students is scant and extremely rare, and that I probably wouldn't get it. 

 

So, I get my acceptance today, and I'm suddenly mortified. Extremely excited and happy, but also at the same time horrified. Maybe it's because I never thought I had a chance and didn't think it would happen, but shit. just. got. real. 

 

The sticker is that I hardly have any debt from my undergrad degree— less than $10k— so with that in mind, part of me doesn't feel too bad about throwing myself into debt since I didn't really have to for my bachelor's degree. Putting things into perspective, I have friends who went $150k into debt for undergrad degrees at private schools, and I know out-of-state students at my public undergrad institution who have roughly the same annual tuition cost as I would at Fordham (although living costs in Portland are considerably less than New York). 

 

The flipside is that I hear left and right to "NEVER GO UNFUNDED," but I always expected I'd be unfunded anyway, and I was comfortable with that given the fact that I didn't accrue massive debt as an undergrad. Now that I got accepted though, the reality has set in. Fordham IS expensive. With grants, it still looks like I'd be at least $60k in debt by the end of it, unless I could somehow secure aid another way, or if they ended up giving me a TA position (not even sure if they do that) or something else.

 

I know in my heart that I would have been rejected from PhD programs, which is why I chose to apply to MA programs (hell, Fordham doesn't even take Bachelor's-to-PhD applicants). I see the MA as a viable transitional degree for me to hone my skills and gain focus and experience (research experience was essentially non-existent at my undergrad, and the program there frankly wasn't that great), and I know many people who earned Master's degrees before successfully pursuing PhDs; but everyone who is vehemently against spending money on graduate school has me second-guessing myself and worried that I'll be viewed as the cash cow for PhD students, or that I'll be shunned by the faculty or something. 

 

I just really don't know. I haven't heard back from the other programs I applied to, so there is still time and other potential options. I have until May 1st to get back to Fordham, but I feel this may be the toughest decision I've ever made.

Edited February 20, 2015 by drownsoda

[fancypants09]

How long is the program? And are you looking to apply for a PhD at the end of it? If not a PhD, what jobs would/could you apply for?

I think these questions will guide your thoughts in the right direction. I, for one, think the education is worth the loans if you make a fully informed decision, one that includes planning especially for the worst possible scenario.

[Appppplication]

I did an unfunded MA which turned into partially funded MA, but that was at a state school. It was totally worth it. I gained tremendously and am about to enter a great Phd program with great funding. HOWEVER, private schools are different. For me funding ops popped up without having to look too far and that offset a lot of money for me. With a private the situation could be very different. It would be worthwhile to have a strictly business reality check conversation with the DGS about funding possibilities. $60k is a lot of money. And if you decide to go outside of academia after your MA, get a good job, and want to buy a house 60K in debt will bite you in the a**.

 

Edit: If it were 20K or less I'd say go for it. 

Edited February 20, 2015 by Appppplication

[1Q84]

$60k for a humanities MA? Please god no.

[Appppplication]

There must be state schools close to your area that are way cheaper. If you're the best student that school has seen in awhile that will help you. 

 

If deadlines have passed you can always email them and ask if they could take your app a little later than normal. 

[Ramus]

I see the MA as a viable transitional degree for me to hone my skills and gain focus and experience (research experience was essentially non-existent at my undergrad, and the program there frankly wasn't that great)

 

1) As someone who graduated from Western Michigan University (read: the quintessential unranked,-no-prestige,-no-research, -no-opportunities-for-ambitious-students undergraduate program), I totally get the desire to a) move into a program that appears to offer all the things you missed in undergrad, and go somewhere with prestige, a place with faculty who teach exciting courses and publish interesting, original work. I'm not going to shame you for wanting to go there. 

 

2) I'm latching onto your phrase "viable transitional degree." I agree that those words describe the ideal MA experience: it's good preparation for doctoral work. Yet, in my mind, the very fact that it's "transitional" makes it hard to justify sinking that much money into it. If it's a stepping stone you're looking for, I'd recommend funded MA options. They're often associated with state schools and aren't going to carry the same "name-weight" as other private unfunded options. But, speaking from experience, I'm so so so glad I opted for the unprestigious, shittier-sounding (though fully-funded) offer from Alabama than going to UChicago or Boston College and being in debt up to my eyeballs. 

 

One last thing: keep in mind cost of living issues, too. (And the same goes for all those BU and NYU MA-admits lurking out there.) Not only are you going into a crazy amount of debt from tuition, but you're also going to be either working an insane amount or talking out even more loans just to live in those NYC or Boston. 

Edited February 20, 2015 by Ramus

[Uncanny Kenna]

Hmm... That's tricky. I think fancypants is right to ask if you're thinking about a PhD at the end of it. The problem with an unfunded MA (in my opinion) is not the additional debt (we're already screwed anyway, right?). The problem is that the vast majority of English PhD programs are really looking to invest in future educators (because why else would you put yourself through the horror of a PhD if you don't want to teach?), meaning that teaching experience during an MA is becoming a requirement for a lot of decent PhD programs. If you're not going to have any opportunities to teach, you might be screwing yourself out of a good funded opportunity elsewhere. Honestly, I feel like you can write a thesis anywhere if you've got the right mindset. But the training to teach and the teaching experience is the most valuable thing most MAs are getting out of their programs these days. You don't have to make a decision right now anyway, right? If Fordham is your only option at the end of the road, then you've got your answer. But if there are other opportunities, you should probably consider them.

As a side note, you might be able to get funding through a Writing Center. I don't know what Fordham's situation is, but a lot of work is going into developing university WCs right now (they're usually separate from but related to the English department) and a lot of English grad students are getting funded by working full time in WCs. I actually have full funding through my program, but for my last semester, I've decided to spend half my time in the WC and half teaching (instead of teaching two sections of comp three times a week, which is freaking exhausting). WCs are awesome and they look really good on future applications. Otherwise, I'm sure you can scrounge up a grant or something. Congrats on your acceptance.

[drownsoda]

Hmm... That's tricky. I think fancypants is right to ask if you're thinking about a PhD at the end of it. The problem with an unfunded MA (in my opinion) is not the additional debt (we're already screwed anyway, right?). The problem is that the vast majority of English PhD programs are really looking to invest in future educators (because why else would you put yourself through the horror of a PhD if you don't want to teach?), meaning that teaching experience during an MA is becoming a requirement for a lot of decent PhD programs. If you're not going to have any opportunities to teach, you might be screwing yourself out of a good funded opportunity elsewhere. Honestly, I feel like you can write a thesis anywhere if you've got the right mindset. But the training to teach and the teaching experience is the most valuable thing most MAs are getting out of their programs these days. You don't have to make a decision right now anyway, right? If Fordham is your only option at the end of the road, then you've got your answer. But if there are other opportunities, you should probably consider them.

As a side note, you might be able to get funding through a Writing Center. I don't know what Fordham's situation is, but a lot of work is going into developing university WCs right now (they're usually separate from but related to the English department) and a lot of English grad students are getting funded by working full time in WCs. I actually have full funding through my program, but for my last semester, I've decided to spend half my time in the WC and half teaching (instead of teaching two sections of comp three times a week, which is freaking exhausting). WCs are awesome and they look really good on future applications. Otherwise, I'm sure you can scrounge up a grant or something. Congrats on your acceptance.

 

I actually had an internship in a writing center at a community college during undergrad; I volunteered there for about six months, and it was a great experience. Fordham has one of these, though I think virtually all schools do. No clue what opportunities they offer in that for students though.

 

I appreciate everyone's input, really. I'm torn about the entire thing and I see the cons and the pros of it. I applied for financial aid and am going to see what happens with that and ultimately try to weigh the costs and figure out what it would take for me to pull it. Like I said, it was my top choice and I was shocked by the acceptance, but money is obviously always a factor in these things.

 

I'm not opposed to taking out loans to an extent, which I know is foolish— but being around people at my public undergrad university who are in $70k+ debt for a B.A. in Spanish just makes me feel like the debt for an MA from Fordham wouldn't be the worst thing in the world given the opportunities the school has to offer. At the same time, I can also see how self-desctructive of a decision that could be long-term.

 

I started out at a community college which I paid for out of pocket, and was fortunately able to get the bulk of my tuition paid for by grants at my undergrad university. I am going to look into scholarships as well. I'm a cancer survivor and I know there are scholarship opportunities in that undoubtedly.

 

Obviously going to wait to hear from the other schools, but if I'm ultimately given no funded offers, I'm going to have to make an extremely tough decision— either pick one, or don't go.

[greenmt]

I paid / took loans for my MA, at one of the city colleges in New York.  Can I say which one?  Why not?  It was Hunter.  I signed up on a lark, because it was inexpensive and because I was jealous of the fun my wife was having in graduate school.  I worked about 3/4-time and took one or two classes at night.  It was a great experience, and working allowed me to not go far into debt.  Lots of people slid directly from the MA into PhD programs, while others were studying for dual subject / teaching degrees, and still others were writing students.  This enriched the classroom discussion, and in a small, non-rated program, it was easy to get access to and attention from the faculty.  They're happy to be working with grad students.  Also, the city college system is set up so that many faculty are dual-appointed: they teach at the Graduate Center as well as the satellite colleges, so depending on where you go, you might have the chance to work with star faculty.  Many of them publish regularly and are well-connected. They certainly know other people in the city, so if a Fordham PhD is your ultimate goal, getting a CC or Hunter or Brooklyn College MA might advance that. They helped me to get extra work in the department, and the city college system as a whole has opportunities to teach undergrads, or to run little public programs, or to edit small journals. At Hunter, anyway, the faculty treated us as peers / scholars, encouraged us to publish and in other ways professionalize.  Maybe it's not ideal if you're not already in NYC, because the tuition costs go up.  But it might be worth seeing what their policies are re: gaining state residency for tuition purposes.  Anyway, if you want to study in New York, and you're happy going for an MA as a transitional degree, for now, I can't recommend the city college system highly enough. 

[ProfLorax]

If I only had less than $10k in loans from undergrad, my response wouldn't be, "well, let's go take out a shit ton more!" Graduating with that little of debt is an accomplishment. You should be proud of that and try to stick to that low of number.

As someone who had to start paying back loans (I worked for three years after my MA), I can tell you that repayment really sucks. Monthly payments, even low ones, eat into your take home salary. And as you've probably heard, English MAs and PhDs aren't raking in the cash.

Also, while repayment is typically delayed a few months after undergrad, I don't think that's the case for an MA. I was shocked when my job-searching ass had to start paying $200 right away.

I'm not saying to avoid all loans and debt, but you can select a program that will minimize your costs while maximizing your professional development opportunities.

[empress-marmot]

If I only had less than $10k in loans from undergrad, my response wouldn't be, "well, let's go take out a shit ton more!" Graduating with that little of debt is an accomplishment. You should be proud of that and try to stick to that low of number.

 

This is exactly the way I feel about debt. 

 

However, I think all of us going into graduate school need to do a risk assessment on ourselves. How much time will I spend? How much money? How much debt? How many years on the job market? How many semesters as an adjunct? What will I give for my dream? It's dangerous to say "everything."

 

Congratulations on your acceptance! 

[Lycidas]

It’s worth thinking about the kind of debt you’ll be going into if you opt for a 60K unfunded MA (with maybe additional costs for living expenses, unless you’re willing to work a whole bunch on the side). I’m guessing your 10K undergraduate debt is in government loans (of course, it might not be; correct me if I’m wrong). But the likelihood of you being able to take out this much in government loans for graduate study is low—the Ford Direct Loan Program, which is the US Government’s main loan program for grad students, tops out at just over $20,000 per year. Which means you’ll probably end up having to take out private loans, which will be a whole lot harsher in both their interest rates and their repayment terms. This is something to consider in making your financial calculations.

[zanmato4794]

I don't know what your attitude on gap years is--they seem like they suck but, having taken two in a row, I can tell you it's not so bad--but I bet with one more year you could reapply and, having strengthened your application, get that funding. Further, I bet you'd feel better about it in the long run, and your future selves would be glad for it.

 

I know you must be anxious to move on with your life, but my vote would be for you to spend another year becoming an even more stellar applicant while putting away money for your eventual move and having time to study and also to travel or something.

[circlewave]

$60k for a humanities MA? Please god no.

[CarolineNC]

Did you apply to any MA programs that offer funding? If not, my advice would be to wait until next year and apply to funded MAs. I went to the University of Kansas for my MA and was funded, got teaching experience, and now I'm actually having pretty good luck with getting in PhDs. 

 

There are some MAs out there that fund. I think there's a list somewhere on grad cafe. I know Kansas State University funds its MAs. I've heard Villanova (which has a late deadline so it might not be too late to apply there) funds its MAs. Do some research before you shell out that much money. 

[lyonessrampant]

I echo the others encouraging you not to go into that amount of debt for an unfunded MA.  If you do eventually want to do the Ph.D., be aware that some people take government loans they might apply for while doing the Ph.D.  Sometimes the stipend doesn't stretch far enough, your car might break down, you may have a child to support, a wedding to pay for, etc., etc.  Basically, life can get in the way.  This means that you don't want to be adding to 70K+ throughout a Ph.D. program.  Ideally, you won't take any loans, but I added a few thousand to cover relocation expenses, fees the first semester, and some living expenses after being laid off and unemployed the previous summer with a partner who needed time to find a job and take the bar in our new location.  Those few thousand add up once you add interest over the period of a Ph.D. program, even at the government loan interest rate.

 

I did UChicago's MA with a partial (about half) tuition scholarship.  I didn't know that funded MA programs existed.  I was pretty oblivious about everything grad school, and while I had a really great experience at UC, probably would have given a limb to stay and do a Ph.D. there, and am a much better scholar and writer as a result, the debt WAS NOT worth it.  It's a one-year program and I did some distance work for about 16 hours a week and still about doubled my undergrad debt to cover tuition, fees, books, and contribute to living expenses.  This was in Chicago, which is expensive but not awful if you live on the South Side.  You'll be in New York for two years; those living expenses are going to be way higher, especially at a private school, as others have pointed out.

 

Some debt for an MA is fine, I think, especially if you have other circumstances that limit relocation, are doing it at a state school were tuition will be lower and funding opportunities will pop up, or don't accumulate a lot of debt.  You've got to think about repayment.  My combined undergrad and MA debt was about 10K less than what yours would be with the 10K + 60K and my monthly payments were around $500 (or maybe $600, don't remember exactly).  Anyway, it was a huge amount of money for someone not making a ton of money, which is a real likelihood post Ph.D. for a year or so to manage the job market.  You don't want to strap your future self so much if you can avoid it.  

 

Maybe you applied for some other MAs that fund their students or are at least much cheaper, but I can't say enough that I really, really regret the debt IN SPITE OF an amazing academic experience.  If Fordham is your dream Ph.D. program, an MA there might actually disadvantage you from getting in there.  A lot of private schools (and schools in general) don't take on their MA students if they want to avoid the reputation of their MA program being a feeder program.  This is not the case for schools like Penn State, for instance, whose MA is often a stepping stone to their Ph.D.  I don't know about Fordham, but that is something you should find out.  

 

I know you feel like you want to go to grad school right now and that this is an opportunity you'll regret passing up.  I felt that way about UC, and even having had a wonderful experience there (like I said), I so wish I could go back and not do it again.  A year off to focus on your application materials and apply more broadly to funded or at least mostly funded MA programs and maybe a mix of MA/Ph.D. programs would let you avoid this debt.  Also, don't think that paying for an MA will guarantee you admission to a Ph.D. program.  I knew a lot of people from my MAPH cohort who didn't get into Ph.D. programs.  I also knew people who got multiple Ivy offers, so I don't mean to say that it will prevent you, just that it isn't a golden ticket.  People from MA programs where they teach, develop their scholarship, and form strong connections with professors will be just as if not more competitive than an applicant with an MA from a seemingly more prestigious but unfunded or largely unfunded program.

[Dr. Old Bill]

Just chiming in to echo what others have said.

 

I can understand taking out some loan money for an M.A., but if it were me, I would make sure that a.) it was an in-state institution, and b.) you can do the M.A. in one year. Until I received the M.A. offer from UMD, I was strongly considering doing a one-year M.A. program at a mid-range in-state university, since the cost wouldn't have been too high ($10k), and I could have completed it in a year while gaining experience along the way.

 

Perspectives on debt differ from person to person, but the law of diminishing returns comes into play here. Is spending $60k on an M.A. from a "better" institution going to put you that much farther ahead than spending $10k or so on an M.A. from a middle-of-the-road institution? Or, for that matter, is an M.A. at all worth more than a year in the workforce while reassessing the strengths and focuses of your application? Only you can make this call, of course.

[Appppplication]

why not do the MA at Portland State U? It looks like the deadline has passed but they may take applicants for spring semester. 

[Horb]

As someone with over 70K in undergrad loans, I cannot understand why on earth you would want to put yourself in that situation willingly. All I do is pretty much panic over money and I'm currently only paying the interest while in deferment. You have 10k? Take a gap year. Pay that off. Apply to a mix of paid and unpaid MAs. UMass Boston as a decent MA that is funded, Villanova has a good one that is funded (with a later deadline you may be able to apply to), and tons of mid-western schools do as well.

 

In regards to the writing center, the majority of those are run by English departments, staffed by MA/PhD students. If they didn't offer you funding, I doubt you'll be able to get enough to really decrease the amount you'd need to borrow. You can look at this as an investment, but there are better investments you could make (re: doing an unfunded or funded MA at a state school that is well ranked).

[pannpann]

There are some MAs out there that fund. I think there's a list somewhere on grad cafe. I know Kansas State University funds its MAs. I've heard Villanova (which has a late deadline so it might not be too late to apply there) funds its MAs. Do some research before you shell out that much money. 

You are a saint for posting this. Their deadline is March 1, so it would be a crunch to send out GRE scores, but everything else should be fine. Unless by some miracle I get accepted to a school this afternoon, I'm absolutely applying. They don't pay tuition for everyone but they do have several scholarships and assistantships.

[kingsxrocks]

I don't know why no one has chimed in on this, but say you get your Phd.. after that you adjunct for a bit.. after that you happen to land a steady teaching gig (yes, a lot of "maybes" here) at a non-profit university... you may qualify for loan forgiveness. In fact, more people may be eligible for such a thing than they think. It's a light at the end of a dark fiscal tunnel. Granted you need to make consistent payments over 10 years WHILE employed at a non-profit institution... however, the amount you're likely to pay back (if you have + $50,000 debt like I do after my B.A. and M.A.) will end up being radically less than your total debt amount.

 

Everyone should be looking into forgiveness programs if you plan to teach... if there is no such incentive for teachers to have their financial slate wiped clean after a certain period of time, I don't see too many folks becoming professors in the future... I'm waiting to hear from PhD programs - I can honestly tell you I'd REALLY rather not dig my debt hole bigger. If I get an unfunded offer - I'm going to decline and work for a year and then reapply.

[CarolineNC]

You are a saint for posting this. Their deadline is March 1, so it would be a crunch to send out GRE scores, but everything else should be fine. Unless by some miracle I get accepted to a school this afternoon, I'm absolutely applying. They don't pay tuition for everyone but they do have several scholarships and assistantships.

AWESOME!!! YES!! 

[babelcopter]

I hate to be a party pooper (it's awesome that you were accepted!) but I have to agree. ~10k in student debt is an astoundingly low figure, and you should try and keep it low. The lack of teaching at Fordham will hurt you when applying to Phd programs down the road. Definitely consider something like Villanova or another, smaller program. I did an MA at an unranked state school (with teaching and tuition remission) and it put me in a good position to get into Phd programs that are waaaay better than my MA institution. Like you said, the MA is transitional; investing $60k in a transitional degree that will make you a weaker candidate (w/out teaching) isn't the way to go. Best of luck with your decision!

[lunalit]

I hate to be a party pooper (it's awesome that you were accepted!) but I have to agree. ~10k in student debt is an astoundingly low figure, and you should try and keep it low. The lack of teaching at Fordham will hurt you when applying to Phd programs down the road. Definitely consider something like Villanova or another, smaller program. I did an MA at an unranked state school (with teaching and tuition remission) and it put me in a good position to get into Phd programs that are waaaay better than my MA institution. Like you said, the MA is transitional; investing $60k in a transitional degree that will make you a weaker candidate (w/out teaching) isn't the way to go. Best of luck with your decision!

 

I was under the impression that teaching experience is actually not very important when applying to PhD programs. I did an unfunded MA at a local state school. We were given opportunities to teach but tuition remission was not included. I have a few years of teaching experience now because of this, and while I think this was an incredibly valuable experience and will serve me well in the future, I don't know that it made much difference to admissions committees. Not one of my applications asked me to talk about my teaching experience, and my professors advised me to foreground my research and writing over teaching on my CV. 

[kurayamino]

I was under the impression that teaching experience is actually not very important when applying to PhD programs. I did an unfunded MA at a local state school. We were given opportunities to teach but tuition remission was not included. I have a few years of teaching experience now because of this, and while I think this was an incredibly valuable experience and will serve me well in the future, I don't know that it made much difference to admissions committees. Not one of my applications asked me to talk about my teaching experience, and my professors advised me to foreground my research and writing over teaching on my CV. 

 

I second this. I'm coming straight from undergrad and I don't even have tutoring experience. The only thing I mentioned about teaching in my SOP was my willingness and desire to do so in addition to my passion for research.