why universities want us to take the GRE

[a fragrant plant]

this article explains why. but i'm skeptical about the third point. what do you think?

the author said:

mportance of GRE Scores -1

First, GRE scores are a standardized tests which forms the basis for comparing applicants to programs. Faculty who are on admissions committees do pay attention to college grades when making graduate admission decisions, but grades are not standardized estimates of how well an undergraduate student learned the material in a class.

Some professors are easy graders and give a high proportion of A’s. Other professors are difficult and an A is measure of exceptional ability rather than the average class grade.You can influence professors decision by sending email to professor, but read the article twice before you reply contact professors.

Professors who are making graduate admissions decisions at University Y have no good idea of how to compare a student with a GPA of 3.62 obtained at University Z vs. a student with a GPA of 3.62 obtained at College C . If the student from University Z has GRE verbal and quantitative scores of 540 and 560 while the student from College C has GRE verbal and quantitative scores of 630 and 720, now the comparison of the two students seems clearer.

When professors find it hard to estimate the value of GPA within U.S. Universities, certainly it will be very hard to find the value of grades for schools in foreign countries.

Importance of GRE Scores – 2

The second reason for the importance of GRE scores is that most university graduate schools require GRE scores as part of the graduate admission process. Thus, GRE scores are used by all types of departments, when making admissions decisions. Thus, the GRE test is relevant to anyone interested in pursuing an advanced degree whether the graduate degree is in Physics, mechanical engineering, Computer Science or pharmacy.

For most universities, applicants to a graduate program must have GRE verbal + GRE quantitative scores more than 1000. Moreover, various departments often compare the quality of their graduate programs by comparing the average GRE scores of the graduate students who are in their programs.

mportance of GRE Scores -3

Many Graduate School programs report the average GRE scores and undergraduate GPA of the applicants accepted into their programs on their web sites. You should look at those scores. If your scores are lower than average by one-half of a standard deviation or more, then your probability of being accepted to that program is so low. You will have to think twice, whether it is worth your time and money to apply to that program.

If your GRE scores and your GPA are all above the mean, then your probability of at least getting is an interview is at least reasonably high, and other factors, such as your research experience as measured by publications and conference presentations and your letters of recommendation, will an impact.

Also other factors like Statement of purpose, leadership skills, research experience, experience relavent to field you are applying are important. But if you do not have a good GPA and high GRE scores, none of those factors are relevant. These factors are used to differentiate among students with good grades and high test scores. These factors will not make up for poor grades and low GRE test scores.

http://www.happyschoolsblog.com/gre-scores-importance/

Edited October 19, 2009 by peanuttheanthro

[fuzzylogician]

That's not an explanation as to why universities have applicants take the GRE in the first place, or what they do with the scores once they have them. It explains how applicants can use the scores to estimate their admission chances, and even then only in case the school is generous enough to publish both the average scores of admitted applicants in recent years and the standard deviation. I'm a little skeptical as to the accuracy of this advice because of the third paragraph, which seems to be backwards of what we usually think - that is, that the GRE and GPA are the least important parts of the application. I don't know the site and the person who wrote the article doesn't reveal their name, so I'd be a little wary of taking it too seriously and devoting less time to the sop and ws and more to the GRE.

[KieBelle]

The first point makes sense and I've heard that argument used before (and also in reference to the SAT). The GRE test itself may not be a great measure of an applicant's ability to succeed in graduate school, but I believe that some sort of standardized test being required is a good thing. I went to a small school and scoring well on a standardized test allows me to demonstrate that I'm just as "intelligent" (or whatever it is they're trying to measure) as those who went to Ivy League schools.

That said, I have a hard time taking the article too seriously because of the poor way it is written. The grammar and spelling mistakes really erode the author's credibility IMHO.

I'm a little skeptical as to the accuracy of this advice because of the third paragraph, which seems to be backwards of what we usually think - that is, that the GRE and GPA are the least important parts of the application.

I'm happy you mentioned this fuzzy because I keep reading similar statements in these threads and it's something I've really had a hard time believing. How can four years of grades be unimportant? I don't argue that having a good SOP and LORs is crucial, but if GPA wasn't important in the admissions process people with 3.0 or 2.5 GPAs would have a much easier time getting into good grad schools. And that's definitely not the case. Anyone else have any thoughts about that?

[fuzzylogician]

I'm happy you mentioned this fuzzy because I keep reading similar statements in these threads and it's something I've really had a hard time believing. How can four years of grades be unimportant? I don't argue that having a good SOP and LORs is crucial, but if GPA wasn't important in the admissions process people with 3.0 or 2.5 GPAs would have a much easier time getting into good grad schools. And that's definitely not the case. Anyone else have any thoughts about that?

I think the point is that the intangibles outweigh the tangibles in the decision process. Still, if you made me choose, I'd wager that the GPA weighs more than the GRE because as you point out it says more about you as a student than the GRE does. But both of these are not as important as a solid SOP, research experience and strong letters of recommendation. I'd also bet it's much more common for programs to admit applicants that have extensive research experience and strong LORs but below average scores than it is for them to admit someone with perfect scores but no research experience and average LORs. Grad school is about conducting independent study, not (just about) studying what others have done before you. Undergrad grades and GREs aren't necessarily a good indication of a person's ability to do that, whereas proven prior experience generally is. Enthusiastic endorsement from a well-known professor (whose opinion is respected and trusted in the field) will also indicated to the adcom that an applicant will do well in the graduate program.

So, I'd guess the requirements importance scale (which I've just made up, mind you) looks something like this:

Research experience, letters of recommendation >> SOP, writing sample >> GPA >> GRE.

It could be a tie all the way down to GPA or different fields could place emphasis on different part of the application, but generally I think the picture is going to be one that has scores at the bottom and the other things on top. Since not everyone can be lucky enough to have a superstar recommend them (and anyway the letters are really out of your control) and since research experience is something you will have probably acquired before the application season - the writing sample and sop are the main places you can influence the decision process in your favor.

[pea-jay]

So, I'd guess the requirements importance scale (which I've just made up, mind you) looks something like this:

Research experience, letters of recommendation >> SOP, writing sample >> GPA >> GRE.

Don't forget work experience, at least for some programs. A few universities I have talked to place the GPA below that of work experience. Well thats what I hope anyway as I'm pretty well removed from my undergrad years. Can't speak to the GRE as all my programs call it "strongly encouraged, but not required" Reading through the lines on that statement, I would say you better still take it if you want to have decent chance at getting in. So Im taking it very seriously.

[jlee306]

I don't care what anybody says about the GRE (in terms of why it is important). Some people just don't do well on standardized tests no matter how well they do in all other areas. In my opinion, the GRE is a big scam...but then again I am probably biased at the moment because I am going through my second round of GRE study torture! What really gets me is that some grad programs don't even require the GRE...if someone can get into program A at University X without taking the GRE, why can't another student get into program A at University Y without taking the GRE? For example, I know about several Social Work grad programs in my area because a few of my friends are going into social work. One program they are applying to doesn't require to GRE to be admitted while another program does. All of the other requirements are the same. What gives? If I were going to hire a social worker, I'm pretty sure I would care less as to whether they took the GRE or not. As long as they are competent and get the job done. Like I stated in my status update: GRE---You are on my list!!

[cheesethunder]

I don't care what anybody says about the GRE (in terms of why it is important). Some people just don't do well on standardized tests no matter how well they do in all other areas. In my opinion, the GRE is a big scam...but then again I am probably biased at the moment because I am going through my second round of GRE study torture! What really gets me is that some grad programs don't even require the GRE...if someone can get into program A at University X without taking the GRE, why can't another student get into program A at University Y without taking the GRE? For example, I know about several Social Work grad programs in my area because a few of my friends are going into social work. One program they are applying to doesn't require to GRE to be admitted while another program does. All of the other requirements are the same. What gives? If I were going to hire a social worker, I'm pretty sure I would care less as to whether they took the GRE or not. As long as they are competent and get the job done. Like I stated in my status update: GRE---You are on my list!!

ye ai get why they do it. numbe rof applications etc, but this doesn't help my poor self esteem

and my terrible score

it seems only american schools put so much stress on standardized tests, like SATs, canadian schools some require it but no one thinks its that big of a deal here,

[fuzzylogician]

What really gets me is that some grad programs don't even require the GRE...if someone can get into program A at University X without taking the GRE, why can't another student get into program A at University Y without taking the GRE? For example, I know about several Social Work grad programs in my area because a few of my friends are going into social work. One program they are applying to doesn't require to GRE to be admitted while another program does. All of the other requirements are the same. What gives?

The ickiness of the GRE notwithstanding, just because two schools have the same requirements doesn't mean they evaluate them the same.

Larger programs that get hundreds of applications can't afford to carefully read all of them and therefore have to use GPA and GRE scores as cutoffs to weed out the influx of apps. Smaller programs might get fewer apps and read all of them, and therefore care less about the scores. Programs can be looking for different kinds of candidates and as a result can have different ways of evaluating the same application. After all, people get accepted and rejected from different schools with the same app, so obviously schools are placing emphasis on different things.

I've read that financing decisions are sometimes based on GRE scores, because it's really the only "objective" criterion that you can compare all candidates along. GPAs from different schools isn't always comparable and you can't productively compare lors, sops or experience. So maybe it does make sense to have some test that everybody has to take. But, I agree, the GRE in its current form doesn't measure potential success in grad school or anything else relevant, costs an outrageous amount of money because the organization running it is a monopoly, and majorly sucks.

[ristastic]

But, I agree, the GRE in its current form doesn't measure potential success in grad school or anything else relevant, costs an outrageous amount of money because the organization running it is a monopoly, and majorly sucks.

What a great summation of every reason I hate the GRE. I just had a conversation with my thesis adviser about the writing section, which in theory is maybe the best test of "grad student potential," but just like the other sections, as soon as you figure out how to game it and write exactly what they want you to, you'll get a good score that doesn't necessarily communicate your real writing abilities. My adviser thinks it actually discourages the sort of writing that [humanities] grad students should be doing. The GRE is simply a measure of how well you can prepare for a standardized test.

[zilch]

The GRE is trying to do too much. It tries to cover every student under one exam, and given that a single university can have over 100 majors, that's just not feasible. It tries and it fails.

In order for it to be at least somewhat viable (and less of a joke), in needs to be split into a technical one and a humanities one. Verbal skills are important for technical majors, but they don't need anywhere near the same amount of expertise that some other fields do. And everyone should know basic math and stats (esp if you're going to be dealing with data) but I really don't see why a humanities/liberal arts major would ever need to mess with conic sections.

[swisnieski]

Err, well, only the first point describes why universities want you to take the GRE. The other two points just relate to the "importance" of the GRE generally.

As I have said elsewhere, the GRE does give the admissions committees at least SOME useful information. They would not require it otherwise. If nothing else, it tells them how good you are at studying for and taking very important tests -- which is an obviously useful skillset to have in graduate school.

[NeuroNerd86]

I talked to the big boss at my laboratory another day - he used to be on the admissions committee for the neuroscience program at the major university for a couple of times. He said that GRE scores are the first thing the committee looks at, because it is the most standard thing there is in all applicants' files.

[JerryLandis]

Personally, I think that it is unacceptable for admissions committees to "weed out" applicants by tossing out applications with low GRE scores before reading any other part of the application. I know they have a lot of applications to get through, but let's not forget that each one of those applicants has paid to have their application read - my application fees get as high as $125 each, and that's not factoring in the $20 for the GRE scores or how much it will cost to mail in my writing sample from another country. I am not paying that much money so someone can toss my carefully assembled application without even glancing at it. Even if we are not good enough to get into their university, we have still paid good money for a service and deserve to be considered. For programs with outrageous numbers of applicants, the amount of money being brought in by application fees should be enough to hire an extra person to help go through applications. I mean, what are we paying for anyway?

[parapraxis]

ye ai get why they do it. numbe rof applications etc, but this doesn't help my poor self esteem

and my terrible score

it seems only american schools put so much stress on standardized tests, like SATs, canadian schools some require it but no one thinks its that big of a deal here,

Apply to Canadian schools then.

[gremot]

Personally, I think that it is unacceptable for admissions committees to "weed out" applicants by tossing out applications with low GRE scores before reading any other part of the application. I know they have a lot of applications to get through, but let's not forget that each one of those applicants has paid to have their application read - my application fees get as high as $125 each, and that's not factoring in the $20 for the GRE scores or how much it will cost to mail in my writing sample from another country. I am not paying that much money so someone can toss my carefully assembled application without even glancing at it. Even if we are not good enough to get into their university, we have still paid good money for a service and deserve to be considered. For programs with outrageous numbers of applicants, the amount of money being brought in by application fees should be enough to hire an extra person to help go through applications. I mean, what are we paying for anyway?

I agree with you a 100%..

And I actually don't think they will toss the applications aside just like that (i do hope so!!) - but I believe that they might sort them separately and look through them later in order to find the most extraordinary candidates first... maybe

[samjones]

i think it's difficult to judge and discuss the importance of GRE scores among a field-diverse group of (aspiring-)academics. as i read and skimmed through some of the responses just in this thread and considered the programs each poster is applying to, i realized how much each perspective and opinion on the admissions process and importance of the GRE could be affected by their intended/actual field. for example, someone going into a field where vocabulary will be an important/necessary tool might NEED to be judged on their verbal GRE score and/or analytical writing score and someone going into a field where math will be an important/necessary tool might NEED to be judged on their math GRE score. so those folks might actually see the relevance of the GRE and might understand why they are being asked to take it and submit to the judgement that follows. and then, there are others who are going into fields that may not require particular skills with vocabulary or math who don't see the point of the any part of the GRE, weren't required to take the GRE, and have been explicitly told that the GRE is not heavily weighed in the process within the intended fields.

BUT among all those groups there may be those who question how accessible the standardization of the GRE is and whether there are problematic issues with the GRE in the same vein of the accessibility to the standardization of the SAT. i mean, who gets to decide what everyone should know/what kind of material everyone should be judged by?

[catilina]

There has to be some kind of standard reference point in the application process--a point at which you know you are comparing apples to apples.

I disagree with some posters about the relative importance of the GRE. My guess is that schools use it to identify a core group of students who are qualified, and then look at all those applications more closely. So a high score wouldn't get you in necessarily, but it would get your application looked at carefully. I think that if you have GRE scores below the average for a particular program there would have to be something really extraordinary about the other parts of your application.

By the way, Northwestern's History department says on its website that it places enormous importance on the verbal GRE score and that it is highly correlated with success in their program. (I didn't see that anywhere else though.)

Also, the GRE verbal section is much easier than the LSAT in my opinion.

[NeuroNerd86]

if it's a consolation to anyone, I was recently assured by the program coordinator at one major public university that ALL applications get reviewed and NOT a single one get tossed right after they see the scores are not high enough to their standards.