Divide between grad students and undergrads?

[cwr]

I'm currently a 4th year undergraduate looking at PhD programs, and when I was reading through some of the "city guide" threads, I noticed people talking about a "divide" between graduate and undergraduate students at Princeton. At least one other commenter noted that this same sort of divide existed at their previous institution and indicated that this might be a common occurrence elsewhere. 

I haven't really noticed a stark divide during my undergraduate, so I'm just interested in getting peoples' opinions on this. In what sense have you noticed a "divide" between graduate students and undergraduates? Is it comparable to the disconnect that might happen between graduate students in different programs/fields (e.g. physics vs. anthropology vs. biochemistry)? Or is there some sort of resentment/contempt there? 

Thanks in advance! Any input is useful and appreciated!

[Demeter]

I don't resent people in other programs. I like them when I can learn about their work, because learning new things is fun. I just don't have a lot to do with them. In grad school, I was busy doing my own research. I heard once that we learn more and more about less and less, and I think that is kind of seen in how easy it is not to interact with people outside our disciplines. It was sometimes to our detriment, because transdisciplinary research does a lot. 

I don't resent undergraduates. I just don't have a ton of interaction with them. When I did, it was in a professional context, so those boundaries had to be minded. I think in some ways, that also contributed to a divide that I felt was very real. Even without being a TA or RA, there was a hierarchy that had to be minded and professionalism was key. It wasn't a bad thing. I liked the UG students I got to know. It's just that we were doing two totally different things, and there wasn't much to talk about or interact around.

But I don't think these two differences I mention are the same thing, exactly. 

Grad school is a totally different ballgame, a totally new way of working and being and doing academics. It's not really comparable to UG work in my mind. I think this sense of divide is a common experience. It was generally 'easier' to interact with other grad students rather than undergrad students in my department because there was some common ground between us. With the undergrads, not so much. 

For some people, this can spill out into daily living if they live in a heavily UG area, or if they live in apartments more populated by graduate students. I wouldn't want to put up with things in daily living now that are common in dorms. I shop at a grocery store. I go to the dry cleaners. I tried to go home at night and forget about work. My life, while situated around work on campus, isn't centered on it like it was in UG. It's just that my job was school. It wasn't my life in the same way that being at college was, if that makes sense. So that may contribute to a feeling of division or a sense of differences in daily life. 

I think, broadly, that it's important to understand that there may be a different culture in the graduate program you enter than you may have experienced at undergrad. These two groups can exist rather independently, and I think that this divide is pretty common. It's not bad, it's not dislike, at least for me. Part of it is a commitment to professionalism, part of it is having little common ground in what you're doing and experiencing, and part of may be one's way of living or stage of living. It may be all those things or none of those things. 

I have more to say, but for now I need to think about the best way to say what I mean. 

Good luck to you as you explore programs! 

Edited February 13, 2016 by Demeter

[rising_star]

As @Demeter has said, the divide is in part because graduate students often have supervisory or grading authority over undergrads. I did have some interaction with undergrads during my master's and the first two years of my PhD because I chose to live with them as roommates for a variety of reasons. By the second year of my PhD, I was basically constantly irked by how immature they were and wanted to get out of that living situation. So, some of the divide is likely due to age and maturity level. Later in my PhD, I joined a club on campus which included a mix of undergrads and grads. I realized that I mostly hung out with the upperclassmen and grad students in the group, preferring to hang out with the grad students. Again, I think this had a lot to do with maturity levels and mutual interests.

[littlemoondragon]

I echo what @Demeter and @rising_star have said. In addition, I think there is another divide caused in private universities, because of finances.

To clarify, I attend a private university where the endowment is HUGE (in the billions). I came from a very poor public university for my undergrad (the tuition is ~$4,000 a year versus over $50,000 a year). A lot of graduate students I meet are like me. We are not from super rich families and we did not attend super fancy, private universities for undergrad. We came to our current graduate institution ,because of the research and also 99% of graduate students are fully funded (awesome!). However, the undergraduates are from rich families. Not all, but a lot of them are well off. I see a lot of undergrads that I feel I should punch them in the face, because they walk around like they are God's gift to Earth. There are more than a few self-entitled shit heads. I taught a full class one semester and I was advised heavily not to be too harsh (whereas in my undergrad when I TAed, I could be very strict and even kick students out) or else piss off some random donors' child. D:

I'm not at Princeton, but I have a couple friends who are and it sounds like they are in a similar boat. This divide of economic culture causes graduate students to be "stand-offish" toward the undergraduates.

[random_grad]

On 2/14/2016 at 9:53 PM, littlemoondragon said:

I see a lot of undergrads that I feel I should punch them in the face, because they walk around like they are God's gift to Earth

rofl I know what you mean))) I personally even see that divide between grad students who are from state vs private unis. it is unfortunate though that some folks from state unis have internalized this class divide and seem to bring it up with or without need. I personally don't care about being poor so I try to not let it mess with my head too much, as long as nobody's behaving like assholes.

On 2/13/2016 at 3:21 PM, cwr said:

"divide" between graduate and undergraduate students

 

 in my 2 programs it was very different. both had joint grad/undergrad seminars, and in one it was excruciatingly boring to have to listen to the undergrads talk, but in the other the undergrads made quite relevant remarks most of the time. still, we would not mingle, probably because the upper-year undergrads are almost done and don't seek new friendships, whereas new grad students are here to stay. so I would not say it's resentment or anything, just different dynamic of forming relationships and sometimes different level of intelligence. the only exception in my experience was with clubs. I made a lot of grad-student friends this way when I did my undergrad. but again, only in early years, when we both sought out new friendships.

Probably the main difference I felt between undergrad and grad was in regards to how the school treats me. I no longer felt like I'm just a number. But this may not be relevant to your experience if you're from a school with few undergrads. however, I doubt this difference in treatment has anything to do with a divide between grads and undergrads at various schools.

 

[Chiqui74]

I don't resent undergraduates, their tution money pays for my tuition and stipend, I just don't have any interaction with them.  I am not in a field where we work in labs and have undergrads working, for example.  There are no cross-listed classes (grad and undergrad together with different requirements for each), etc.  Most of the graduate classes (seminars) are taught in the department, not in regular classrooms.  That will change when it comes time to teach, and that interaction will, obviously, be different than if we were just hanging out. We essentially inhabit different worlds so yes, there is a divide.  But there should be, IMO.  Graduate students and undergraduate students are in different phases of their lives and their careers, graduate school is nothing like college and there experience is completely different, etc.  Plus, there is always the chance that a graduate student will become a TA or instructor to undergraduates so there's that need for separation too to avoid problems down the line.

[Chiqui74]

On 2/14/2016 at 9:53 PM, littlemoondragon said:

I echo what @Demeter and @rising_star have said. In addition, I think there is another divide caused in private universities, because of finances.

To clarify, I attend a private university where the endowment is HUGE (in the billions). I came from a very poor public university for my undergrad (the tuition is ~$4,000 a year versus over $50,000 a year). A lot of graduate students I meet are like me. We are not from super rich families and we did not attend super fancy, private universities for undergrad. We came to our current graduate institution ,because of the research and also 99% of graduate students are fully funded (awesome!). However, the undergraduates are from rich families. Not all, but a lot of them are well off. I see a lot of undergrads that I feel I should punch them in the face, because they walk around like they are God's gift to Earth. There are more than a few self-entitled shit heads. I taught a full class one semester and I was advised heavily not to be too harsh (whereas in my undergrad when I TAed, I could be very strict and even kick students out) or else piss off some random donors' child. D:

I'm not at Princeton, but I have a couple friends who are and it sounds like they are in a similar boat. This divide of economic culture causes graduate students to be "stand-offish" toward the undergraduates.

I'm an a very expensive school, and while I haven't experience this first hand, some of my colleagues have commented on the financial situation of the undergrads (rich, mostly) and their sense of entitlement.  Most of the grad students I know definitely don't fit that demographic.

[maelia8]

I don't notice much of a divide between grads and undergrads on campus, except where grading/power relationships requires it, but I do very much notice a divide in where graduate students and undergrads choose to live. There are certain edges of campus where grad students don't usually reside because of the overwhelming presence of undergrads (ratio is about 5:1 undergrads to grad students at this university, so there are a lot more of them than there are of us). There are whole enclaves where only undergrads live, eat, and entertain themselves, and other locales and neighborhoods where graduate students do these things. 

[bhr]

I worked in Res Life before grad school, so I wanted to live as far away as possible from undergrads, but I know many who live around/with undergrads. Keep in mind that the average undergrad at most schools is probably around 20, while the average grad student is probably close to 30, and that means that they are at very different life stages. Obviously this is talking in generalities, but you see more parents, people in long term relationships, people with job or life experience, ect. among the grad population. The only undergrads I've really spent any time with by choice (I've had a few combo classes in my MA) are those that have more lived experience (military, parents returning to school,ect.)

[researchfreak]

On 2/14/2016 at 6:53 PM, littlemoondragon said:

I echo what @Demeter and @rising_star have said. In addition, I think there is another divide caused in private universities, because of finances.

To clarify, I attend a private university where the endowment is HUGE (in the billions). I came from a very poor public university for my undergrad (the tuition is ~$4,000 a year versus over $50,000 a year). A lot of graduate students I meet are like me. We are not from super rich families and we did not attend super fancy, private universities for undergrad. We came to our current graduate institution ,because of the research and also 99% of graduate students are fully funded (awesome!). However, the undergraduates are from rich families. Not all, but a lot of them are well off. I see a lot of undergrads that I feel I should punch them in the face, because they walk around like they are God's gift to Earth. There are more than a few self-entitled shit heads. I taught a full class one semester and I was advised heavily not to be too harsh (whereas in my undergrad when I TAed, I could be very strict and even kick students out) or else piss off some random donors' child. D:

I'm not at Princeton, but I have a couple friends who are and it sounds like they are in a similar boat. This divide of economic culture causes graduate students to be "stand-offish" toward the undergraduates.

I'm an undergrad at the type of university you are attending for grad school. Even from an undergrads POV, I fully agree with what you said. I attended two years of community college first in order to bring down costs, and then transferred to my current university. Even I feel disconnected from the majority of undergrads, because many of them really do act entitled. Also, I'm two years above my graduating class (international student who go to school longer in my country), so I think that contributes to it too. I have been fortunate enough to take PhD classes my during my last year, and that is where I've really seen the divide. There is quite a difference in the intellectual level of discussion in my PhD classes vs. my regular undergrad classes. So, to sum it up - I think these divides tend to be at many schools due to simply being at different levels in your education and personal development, but I also think that divide is further emphasized at expensive, private universities.

[rageofanath]

My undergrad institution didn't have many grad students since its MFA was a low-residency MFA. So the grad students would only be on campus for a few weeks a year during winter and summer break. When they were on campus, it was an intensive time where they were doing their own thing. However in the few instances I interacted with them I did not feel much of a divide. They were very open and friendly, and since there were undergrads that also facilitated the program (like I documented some of it, and there were undergrad aides who helped in food preparation) they would talk to us about the school, the sorts of things they were learning, art in general. 

However right now I'm taking classes through a tuition assistance program in the university I work at and its a very, very different situation. It's a lot more like what other responders have mentioned. There's a huge power divide between grads and undergrads as the grads have a very significant grading power over the undergrads. In the instances where grads and undergrads are both taking the course, the grads and undergrads tend to cluster together on opposite ends of the room with very little crosstalk. Other tuition assistance or special student type people end up clustering with the grad students, and honestly, I do too. I have made efforts to reach out to the undergrads but sometimes it can be hard as the divide is caused from both sides.

It's also an expensive school so there is a lot of entitlement and just flat out ignorance on the part of undergrads sometimes, so it can be difficult and offputting to participate in casual conversation. These are kids where most of them have never worked a summer job in their lives, much less tried to juggle a real job with school... or even know how many groceries minimum wage can buy. Sometimes hearing them talk about matters unrelated to class material is a bit... frustrating. So there's definitely a maturity and experience gap on top of everything else. I can imagine if my undergrad had cross registered courses the grad students would have rolled their eyes at me too.

[UrbanMidwest]

I'll be a distance student so I already have a divide between the full-time students in my program! Since that's my situation undergraduate students aren't on my radar.

Edited March 30, 2016 by UrbanMidwest

[UrbanMidwest]

On 3/26/2016 at 11:30 PM, rageofanath said:

My undergrad institution didn't have many grad students since its MFA was a low-residency MFA. So the grad students would only be on campus for a few weeks a year during winter and summer break. When they were on campus, it was an intensive time where they were doing their own thing. However in the few instances I interacted with them I did not feel much of a divide. They were very open and friendly, and since there were undergrads that also facilitated the program (like I documented some of it, and there were undergrad aides who helped in food preparation) they would talk to us about the school, the sorts of things they were learning, art in general. 

However right now I'm taking classes through a tuition assistance program in the university I work at and its a very, very different situation. It's a lot more like what other responders have mentioned. There's a huge power divide between grads and undergrads as the grads have a very significant grading power over the undergrads. In the instances where grads and undergrads are both taking the course, the grads and undergrads tend to cluster together on opposite ends of the room with very little crosstalk. Other tuition assistance or special student type people end up clustering with the grad students, and honestly, I do too. I have made efforts to reach out to the undergrads but sometimes it can be hard as the divide is caused from both sides.

It's also an expensive school so there is a lot of entitlement and just flat out ignorance on the part of undergrads sometimes, so it can be difficult and offputting to participate in casual conversation. These are kids where most of them have never worked a summer job in their lives, much less tried to juggle a real job with school... or even know how many groceries minimum wage can buy. Sometimes hearing them talk about matters unrelated to class material is a bit... frustrating. So there's definitely a maturity and experience gap on top of everything else. I can imagine if my undergrad had cross registered courses the grad students would have rolled their eyes at me too.

what ...

[knp]

Will I sound like a mean curmudgeon if I suggest that I didn't like many of the undergrads in my major even when I was an undergrad?

[rageofanath]

23 hours ago, UrbanMidwest said:

what ...

Yeah. If the segment I've talked to is any indication of the rest of the undergraduate student body, a considerable portion spent their summers doing the sorts of things that look good on college applications. Volunteering, traveling, mission trips, clubs/sports, precollege / college level academic camps, etc etc etc. I think I've talked to a couple kids who had some kind of internship which, while much closer to the experience of having a summer job and invaluable experience, isn't necessarily breaking them out of their bubble. I've either yet to meet one that flipped burgers, or those that have are remarkably secretive about it. (This wasn't true at my undergrad where a lot of my peers had those sorts of jobs even during semesters and yeah, we openly talked about stuff like the relative merits of working McD's vs Burger King.)

It's not like its all their fault or anything, a lot of them were sacrificed on the altar of academic achievement by their parents.

[unanachronism]

I'm an undergrad at Princeton and I would say that the grad student-undergrad divide is both real and more of a joke. I think it boils down less to antipathy between the two groups (which really doesn't exist from the undergrad side, other than jokes about "sketchy grad students") and more that there is, for many undergrads, little to no interaction with grad students. The only grad students I know are ones from graduate/upper-level courses I have taken in my department (and many undergrads will never take a grad course), who I only know in classroom contexts, and maybe 3-4 others that I have met through their participation in student groups. There's no reason grad students can't participate in many activities like theater, choirs, student radio, etc. but I think few do. More seem to do things like club/intramural sports. I am friends with one grad student who does theater and he is good friends with a lot of undergrads. I think more people in sciences know/hang out with grad students because they work together in labs, one of my friends goes out to drinks with her lab frequently.

I have a few friends who have dated grad students, sometimes I have heard of people partying with grad students. They can come to the eating clubs, but there is also a grad student bar. Overall I would say yeah, the divide is there, but if you want to break it, there are no real barriers.

(I'm a senior in the humanities so YMMV, but yeah) 

[UrbanMidwest]

17 hours ago, knp said:

Will I sound like a mean curmudgeon if I suggest that I didn't like many of the undergrads in my major even when I was an undergrad?

Nope!

[Citizen of Night Vale]

On February 13, 2016 at 8:53 PM, littlemoondragon said:

To clarify, I attend a private university where the endowment is HUGE (in the billions). I came from a very poor public university for my undergrad (the tuition is ~$4,000 a year versus over $50,000 a year). A lot of graduate students I meet are like me. We are not from super rich families and we did not attend super fancy, private universities for undergrad. We came to our current graduate institution ,because of the research and also 99% of graduate students are fully funded (awesome!). However, the undergraduates are from rich families. Not all, but a lot of them are well off. I see a lot of undergrads that I feel I should punch them in the face, because they walk around like they are God's gift to Earth. There are more than a few self-entitled shit heads. I taught a full class one semester and I was advised heavily not to be too harsh (whereas in my undergrad when I TAed, I could be very strict and even kick students out) or else piss off some random donors' child. D:

I'm not at Princeton, but I have a couple friends who are and it sounds like they are in a similar boat. This divide of economic culture causes graduate students to be "stand-offish" toward the undergraduates.

THIS. I feel like this is what I'm going to enter this Fall. I come from a middle class family and commuted to a small private university from home but will soon be attending a large private university with a billion+ dollar endowment. I've read many of the undergrad kids come from rich families in the area and Greek life is exceptionally strong on this campus. I'm excited to start my program but the thought of seeing these kids makes me cringe. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Citizen of Night Vale

[another_time]

The majority of undergraduates are going to feel a "divide" between undergrads and grad students.  Most college seniors are not equipped to enter a PhD program when they graduate, so even graduating seniors may feel as if they cannot relate to graduate students.

Undergrads who are involved in research might feel there is less of a divide, and over time they should notice that they just fit into the overall framework of the lab and that even between PhD students there is a hierarchy of authority.  It really depends on how involved the undergraduate is, but the ones who eventually bridge the divide are in the minority.

PhD students have just attained a status most students don't even aspire to.  The difference between a graduating senior and the same student 1st year in grad school is the application process, which creates uncertainty in everyone.  But if the only thing separating one student from another is a rite of passage, a so-called divide can seem superficial even if it is sufficient to endow authority.  

Er.  I should mention I am attending a public university, so there is no drama created from the spawn of donors.

Edited April 9, 2016 by another_time

[cwr]

On March 31, 2016 at 9:33 PM, unanachronism said:

I'm an undergrad at Princeton and I would say that the grad student-undergrad divide is both real and more of a joke. I think it boils down less to antipathy between the two groups (which really doesn't exist from the undergrad side, other than jokes about "sketchy grad students") and more that there is, for many undergrads, little to no interaction with grad students. The only grad students I know are ones from graduate/upper-level courses I have taken in my department (and many undergrads will never take a grad course), who I only know in classroom contexts, and maybe 3-4 others that I have met through their participation in student groups. There's no reason grad students can't participate in many activities like theater, choirs, student radio, etc. but I think few do. More seem to do things like club/intramural sports. I am friends with one grad student who does theater and he is good friends with a lot of undergrads. I think more people in sciences know/hang out with grad students because they work together in labs, one of my friends goes out to drinks with her lab frequently.

I have a few friends who have dated grad students, sometimes I have heard of people partying with grad students. They can come to the eating clubs, but there is also a grad student bar. Overall I would say yeah, the divide is there, but if you want to break it, there are no real barriers.

(I'm a senior in the humanities so YMMV, but yeah) 

Thanks for this. It makes me feel better. I'm generally pretty social, and I just wanted to get a sense of the culture with regard to undergrads versus graduate students. 

I'm planning to take some foreign language classes (French) because I'll spend 3 years of my Ph.D. living in Europe, so the language will help a lot. I've heard that this is a nice way to meet some more people (usually undergrads, I'm assuming) outside of your program, since the classes are small. I'm also planning to do some sort of activities on campus (at least intramural, if not club, sports), so I'm sure I'll meet some people through that. 

It's just nice to hear that any divide between undergrads and grad students is probably due to apathy, as opposed to contempt or resentment. 

[sjoh197]

There was a bit of a divide between the undergrad and grad students in my department but most of it was because the undergrads were young "get drunk and go to the bars every weekend" kids, and most of the grad students were married/serious long term relationship/ had kids/pregnant.

Some of the older or more life experienced undergrads would befriend the grad students, and some of the younger or less attached grad students would hang with the undergrad group.

It was a lot like the divide between college kids and high schoolers. They don't dislike each other, they are just typically in different places of their lives and have fewer things that relate them with which to build meaningful relationships.

If you engage in something like intramural sports, you are effectively bridging that "not much in common" gap, and your academic status will no longer be that relevant to those people.