A Great Article: "The Disadvantages of an Elite Education"

[BillyPilgrim]

http://www.theamericanscholar.org/the-disadvantages-of-an-elite-education/

[spozik]

Hopefully others share their thoughts on this as well! Sorry in advance for the length.

I've read this article previously, and I have to say that it opened up my eyes. Not to the game, but to the fact that the game existed.

As a first-generation college student, a lot of what goes on in "elite" universities is foreign, sometimes even amusing to me. I'm interested in my subject and interested in academics, I'm even interested in bureaucracy and the running of a school, for that matter. But when I was growing up, I couldn't name an "Ivy League" school outside of Harvard, Yale, or Princeton, and even now I'd probably have to check. I went to a decent, but not "top-tier" university for my undergrad education, but I couldn't have said a word to you about what college "ranking" meant when I was in high school. I grew up in a small town and graduated with 60 or so other kids, some of whom went to college (most of those at the local community college), some of whom went into the workforce, and some of whom joined the military. It just wasn't part of what we did or who we were.

Now, I'm taking classes at what I would consider a top-tier university. I'm not entirely sure about that, even, but if you ask someone what universities are "top-tier", you'll get a run-around or something of that nature. This is entirely understandable, but I feel that answer falsely presumes some intuitive knowledge about the nature of higher education. Something like "you know the real answer to that question," but in reality I haven't a clue.

I had a friend who was a lot like me who went on to grad school a few years ago. He graduated from a decent public state school, worked in manual labor for a few years, and then applied to various places. He visited Princeton and said it was like going to the moon. I'm pretty sure I'd have the same experience at an Ivy League school. I don't hold it against anyone, you are what you are. However, I can't see myself fitting in with a cohort that consists of a bunch of third-generation top-tier college kids, trust-fund offshoots, and the kind of kids that the author of this article describes. Probably not any more than they (e.g. the author of the article) could see themselves fitting in with me.

I read another article recently (I can't find it right now, but I'm sure some others read it, too. It was on Salon--Google it) about a kid who was living in his van while going to grad school at Duke, for a whole two months! He presented himself pretty pompously, I thought. He mentioned at one point that his mother offered to rent him an apartment, but he declined. This is where the article really separated two groups of people, I think: those who were shocked that he declined this offer, and those who were shocked that the offer could be made at all (me, and I'm sure many others, included). He emphasized the fact that he didn't "own an iPod," but noted that he owned all of the necessities, like a cell phone. Of course! How did we ever get by without those? Good try, but you're not the second coming of Emerson or Thoreau. You're just some rich kid with an ax to grind that got embedded somewhere along the way, proven by the delusions of grandeur where people visit the van like it's some kind of prophetic symbol for aspiring minimalists. Unfortunately, I think they've all got their trailers and tents at the local campground, laughing behind their back at the guy who is paying for a parking space.

Let me relate this back to the original article. There are those who do things because they truly believe in them, who don't just do things because it's expected of them. They see an objective that they want, and they go for it. They don't fear social stigma, nor do they purposefully seek it out; they don't fear poverty, nor do they adamantly despise wealth. I think that this is the person missing from the article linked in the original post and, for that matter, the Duke van guy's story. Where are the people with real passion? I haven't met all that many genuine people since I moved away from the small town I grew up in, but I think with the education I have so far (and that's only a BA + a few classes), I've managed to essentially alienate myself from that community.

Sorry to ramble, but I think this article (combined with the Duke guy I read about a few days ago) hit a spark for me. At some point, the charade just makes authenticity seem unwelcome, and those of us with a real stake in what we're doing feel distanced or embarrassed by it, even though it's the very thing that should, in fact, make us feel a sense of belonging.

[prolixity]

http://www.theameric...lite-education/

I don't have much to contribute beyond:

the attitude of the Yale "recruiters" at a graduate fair I attended prompted me to ex the university off of my list of schools to investigate. They aren't even ranked highly in my field. These two blonde-haired pasty recruiters, sitting at their booths, glaring at each and every person who walked by, when approached and asked for information by multiple members of my party at individual instances, scoffed, guffawed, and merely gestured toward a stack of papers held stationary by a rock on their table. I'm not sure what their function was, besides lending credibility to the elitist reputation held by the university.

Harvard, on the other hand, hosted incredibly friendly recruiters who actually looked me in the eye and smiled! Because Harvard is ranked fifth in my field, I know I have so-so chances of acceptance, but I donated my $105 to the endowment anyway. It's nice to be treated respectfully sometimes.

Of course, one can't judge a university by its public face; however, it almost seemed as if Yale was intentionally conveying a message of superiority and smugness through their selection of the most unfriendly recruiters I've ever met.

[alexis]

I found this article really interesting. It rang true to me. I went to a "public ivy" for undergrad, and while it wasn't Yale, there are a LOT of things my school shares in common with it. (E.g., everyone dressing the exact same? Check. Rich kids/exclusive admissions/sense of entitlement? Check.) It makes me realize that I am A: kind of the type of student who he describes, who cares about getting As, and wants success for success' sake, even if it's something I don't particularly enjoy. But I'm also B: genuinely interested in intellectual thought--and if I don't get accepted to the PhD programs that I'm applying to, that doesn't make me any less smart, motivated, or able. The article was a good reminder and wake-up call that we cannot find our value from test scores, grades, the type of school we go to, or how much money we make. It was a good thing for me to read while stressing out about this application process.

(BTW, I'm not applying in the humanities, but I'm hijacking ya'll's thread I was a history major in undergrad, so I kind of qualify)

Edited December 11, 2009 by alexis

[Anastasya]

I actually was just talking about something similar with my roommate. Originally I wanted to go to a fancy pretentious film school, but decided to follow my boyfriend at the time, and ended up at a public school 3 hours from home. At first I was pissed, but now I am so very glad I am where I am. I have been able to find a place for myself, make friends with REAL people, and push the boundaries of a small school. I have almost outgrown it, but I am very glad for the education I have earned here, and the kind of artist I have become, due to the lack of "elite" resources, and the fact that I've had a job in the real world for a couple years. Now when I go to a "top-tier" school, I will know how to use it, and I will piss off all the students who were formed within the box of an ivy.

[jacib]

I read another article recently (I can't find it right now, but I'm sure some others read it, too. It was on Salon--Google it) about a kid who was living in his van while going to grad school at Duke, for a whole two months! He presented himself pretty pompously, I thought. He mentioned at one point that his mother offered to rent him an apartment, but he declined. This is where the article really separated two groups of people, I think: those who were shocked that he declined this offer, and those who were shocked that the offer could be made at all (me, and I'm sure many others, included).

The Salon article referenced above is here.

[glasses]

I read another article recently (I can't find it right now, but I'm sure some others read it, too. It was on Salon--Google it) about a kid who was living in his van while going to grad school at Duke, for a whole two months! He presented himself pretty pompously, I thought. He mentioned at one point that his mother offered to rent him an apartment, but he declined. This is where the article really separated two groups of people, I think: those who were shocked that he declined this offer, and those who were shocked that the offer could be made at all (me, and I'm sure many others, included). He emphasized the fact that he didn't "own an iPod," but noted that he owned all of the necessities, like a cell phone. Of course! How did we ever get by without those? Good try, but you're not the second coming of Emerson or Thoreau. You're just some rich kid with an ax to grind that got embedded somewhere along the way, proven by the delusions of grandeur where people visit the van like it's some kind of prophetic symbol for aspiring minimalists. Unfortunately, I think they've all got their trailers and tents at the local campground, laughing behind their back at the guy who is paying for a parking space.

The existence of this fella drives me insane.

I went to a fancy college for undergrad: I got financial aid because I was an emancipated minor, and it felt like a gigantic blessing -- giant doors opening on possibilities that I never even considered real. That sounds corny as hell, but it's true. I was also homeless for part of that, and during that time I lived in the crappy car that I bought when I moved out of my folks' place at fifteen. I snuck into dorms for showers. So on, so forth. And if someone had offered to get me an apartment, I would have taken it in a heartbeat and with gratitude. No delusions of grandeur: just a gal who got into a college that she didn't think she'd ever get into, found out she loved it, and was willing to do whatever the hell it took to keep going there. I also made some great friends there -- folks who were utterly understanding when I "came clean" about my living situation (something that I admittedly did very, very selectively, to about four classmates and a couple professors) and completely jazzed for me when I managed start making enough money to get myself an apartment!

Just an anecdote to say that not all folks who go to fancy colleges are (1) fancy or (2) asshats, and that people who are (1) fancy are not always (2) asshats. "Real" people exist everywhere -- and, as far as I can tell, so do pretentious jerks!

Edited December 11, 2009 by glasses

[ScreamingHairyArmadillo]

The Salon article referenced above is here.

Almost more unbearable than the article were some of the responses: "best article ever," "this guy is so real," blah blah blah.

I recommend we all try living a little more frugally, but this guy's pretentiousness is unbelievable. He whines about not having human contact, yet thinks he can't communicate to anyone because they won't understand? Sorry kid, I read The Dharma Bums, too.

Talk to my parents, who have little (and my dad who left an Ivy to lead his own, unrestricted life): they'll tell him to drive his van up his own ass.

[GoodGuy]

Sorry folks. That article is bull. The inability to talk to someone who isn't of your class or educational background has nothing to do with where you went to school. It has to do with where you were raised and who raised you. Pure and simple. You don't "learn" how to be a snob in the Ivy League (or whatever public or private equivalent you might attend). The writer of the article just needs someone to blame for his own shortcomings. And people who agree with him who haven't gone Ivy just don't know because, well, they haven't gone Ivy. And using Gore and Kerry as examples to bolster his point is just lazy.

I did my undergrad at an Ivy and now I'm doing my grad work at an Ivy. But it was my parents, regular middle-class people who worked everyday and believed that goodness to others is a virtue--not my professors or deans or fellow students in college--who taught me how to interact with the world around me. But the ability to interact with people, to hold conversations and see other points of view? That was learned at home. Where, frankly, it should be.

Sure there WERE social and cultural things I learned at my undergrad Ivy that I can clearly see as marked as "different" or "special" in some people's eyes. But I don't have to let those systems define who I am. And there were things I saw there that bothered me at times. But I don't have to be pissed off at them when there are FAR more important things in the world to be pissed off about.

But I will say this: I've seen some selfish, mean, nasty, dumb, egotistical assholes come out of schools far off the Ivy path. What excuse do we give them?

[jacib]

I am a member of organizations which are considered taboo for "respectable" people.

Not trying to start a fight, but honestly like what, out of curiosity? In all seriousness, the first organizations that sprung to mind was NAMBLA and insurrectionist Marxist factions, but I don't think that's what you meant.

[melusine]

Not trying to start a fight, but honestly like what, out of curiosity? In all seriousness, the first organizations that sprung to mind was NAMBLA and insurrectionist Marxist factions, but I don't think that's what you meant.

omg! I always thought nambla was another South Park invention.. I just googled it. It's real. Scary Stuff!

[JerryLandis]

I think the point of the article wasn't that the Ivy League makes people incapable of intellectual thought or independence, but that the kind of people the Ivy League accepts are mostly those who have been best conditioned to favor correct answers over interesting ones. Obviously the Ivies are trying to diversify, as he mentioned, admitting a certain number of artists, musicians, and otherwise kooky people every year, but apparently the majority of admits are those who aced the SAT and AP tests, and spent all of high school building their college resumes. I don't know how much I agree since I don't attend an Ivy, but I did go to a private prep school, so what he talks about sounds very familiar to me. I remember being required to take certain classes not because they were essential to graduate from high school, but because the top colleges supposedly (according to my college counselor) wouldn't consider me if I didn't have them on my transcript. Instead of allowing me to take two languages, lots of history classes, and art, which still would have enabled me to take the minimum number of science/math classes to graduate, I was repeatedly urged to take 4 years of history, 4 years of math, 4 years of science, 4 years of English, and 4 years of one foreign language (plus 2 years of "College Counseling" as a minor class). Art? You'll never get in anywhere decent! I was also pressured into joining the crew team, model UN, running for meaningless student government positions, and basically all the extra-curricular activities recommended for kids who have no interests or passions of their own, but need something to put into the "extra-curriculars" box in the application. I ended up applying to a random foreign university no one from my school had ever attended, and not even submitting applications to the Ivies and generally competitive colleges recommended by my college counselor, and I purposefully failed out of the math class she made me take so that I could take something else. Everyone else in that math class (also fellow members of the crew team, model UN, squash team, etc.) ended up going to elite colleges. Most of them were very smart and friendly, but sometimes I do wonder if the prep school experience beat some of their creativity out of them, as it sort of did for me. Fortunately I had some wonderful and inspirational teachers who offset that whole crazy competitive experience, but I definitely understand what the author of the article is talking about. When you're so focused on scoring perfectly on everything (which these days is necessary to compete in admissions no matter where you're applying), it's very difficult to actually think about the implications or underlying meaning of what it is you're "learning."

But please, still, I'd like that one Ivy I applied to to admit me... Can't be the same way for PhDs, right?

[BillyPilgrim]

who am I kidding? I would go to an ivy in a heartbeat if they would have me....

[LateAntique]

Not trying to start a fight, but honestly like what, out of curiosity? In all seriousness, the first organizations that sprung to mind was NAMBLA and insurrectionist Marxist factions, but I don't think that's what you meant.

Like the Gradcafe. If only people knew...

[Postbib Yeshuist]

you make the contacts needed to launch yourself into a life rich in all of society’s most cherished rewards.

Herein lies the problem. It is not the Ivies, but what society considers to be a "cherished reward." I have been lucky to attend institutions that taught that the cherished rewards were found in standing with the oppressed and fighting Power. Perhaps this is why Harvard, Yale, etc are simply "interesting" schools to me, not places I'd ever be likely attend.

[shepardn7]

Wow, this thread old, but have to comment...

 

However, I can't see myself fitting in with a cohort that consists of a bunch of third-generation top-tier college kids, trust-fund offshoots, and the kind of kids that the author of this article describes.

I went to a "lower level" Ivy -- I'll leave it at that to protect my anonymity), and I was a first-generation (though white) female student from a lower-middle-class family.

My experience of the community was not as you describe above. Many of my friends took out loans (I did, too), and some were working part-time to help pay expenses, and some were theater geeks, and some (of course) were more business-oriented. My boyfriend, though not a first-gen (though his parents went to low-tier state schools), came from one of the poorest towns our state. One of my pre-med roommates from a middle-class family worked hard as a waitress during the school year.

 

I don't think I had a single friend with a trust fund, though they certainly existed, as did third-gen students and students from rich families. But I also had friends from upper-middle-class families, and they were great, so-called "real" (see below), down-to-earth people. I even had a friend with a connection to the school via a parent, and this friend is the one of the most down-to-earth people I know. It's not as if these schools are cesspools of classism. It exists, as it does at all private schools, but it's not as oppressive as you would think.

Keep in mind these are research universities with multiple colleges, not small liberal arts colleges, which means there are lots of students, and all of them doing different things with their lives. It's very easy to avoid the "good old boys (and girls)" and make friends from all walks of life. It's also easy to avoid frat-life or its equivalent, simply because the schools are so large.

but that the kind of people the Ivy League accepts are mostly those who have been best conditioned to favor correct answers over interesting ones.

While many people I know did have good test scores and grades, I was accepted to an Ivy with a sub-1200 SAT combo, a C+ in a math course, and an excellent admissions essay. I'm also in the extremely practical and uncreative field of creative writing. Basically: I could not be further from the type of person you expect me to be, having gone to the school I did. I think you are right about prep high schools, but, while elite, those aren't colleges -- it's very different. I would say that my Ivy League education only further inspired and encouraged my creative endeavors, not stifled them.

make friends with REAL people,

 

Oh yes, you can only be a REAL person if you go to a non-prestigious state school. Just as only REAL Americans live on minimum wage in the midwest and are sure to read their Bibles before bed, while all the fake Americans live in NYC and Los Angeles with the gays and the atheists. I think you can make your point without implying that people who attended "elite" schools are somehow not "real" or worth your friendship. You don't strike me as the kind of person who would buy that social-conservative rhetoric, so why speak it yourself?

the box of an ivy

Not even close to a "box." How could you possibly make such a judgment about years of educational experience you declined? Have you forgotten that you did not, in fact, attend the school, and that you could have easily have had an equally (or even more) positive experience there? That you might have evolved artistically there, too? I had more intellectual and creative freedom and engagement than I could dream of in school, and my professors were more encouraging than ever when I came to them with creative endeavors. I really had a wonderful, warm, and stimulating educational experience at my "fancy" school. I don't doubt, however, that I could have had a similar experience and grown in similar ways if I had attended my non-prestigious state school, simply because I can't accurately speak for experiences I never had.

The point:

I agree with glasses's commentary. I think we can speak to the value of attending a non-elite school (there are many) without acting as if an education from an elite school is somehow deficient ("the box of an Ivy," brb, laughing forever), or that the students at such schools are not worth knowing for X or Y reason. JFC.

[coffeem8]

I went to an Ivy. I am from a poor family. I am still poor. I didn't attend to be "rich." I'm getting a Ph.D. in the humanities, because I love it. If this person seriously thinks no working class people exist in the Ivy League, the author simply isn't looking hard enough. True, I have felt very uncomfortable amongst the wealthy, and I can't wait to the leave the Ivy League, but I worked hard for many of the A-'s I received. They weren't simply handouts.

My partner is also from a working class family and will be the only person in their family ever to attend and finish college.

Ridiculous.

Edited January 30, 2011 by coffeem8

[eassyweb]

there is no life without education and everyone has to study hard for a good life and a good person

[Two Espressos]

Almost more unbearable than the article were some of the responses: "best article ever," "this guy is so real," blah blah blah.

I recommend we all try living a little more frugally, but this guy's pretentiousness is unbelievable. He whines about not having human contact, yet thinks he can't communicate to anyone because they won't understand? Sorry kid, I read The Dharma Bums, too.

Talk to my parents, who have little (and my dad who left an Ivy to lead his own, unrestricted life): they'll tell him to drive his van up his own ass.

Haha! While I can understand (and appreciate, in some sense) this guy's mission, I must agree: he is pretentious as all hell. The feedback on the article is absolutely nauseating; this guy is not a hero, just like Chrisopher McCandless was not a hero.

[Alephantiasis]

I've attended a number of schools both in the US and in Europe. I did my undergrad in a little known, unranked school. Now, I'm working towards my PhD in the archetype of the pretentious school. Everything is designed to give an impression of power and to inspire awe. However, people are really friendly, open-minded and welcoming. In my experience: the less elite the school, the more pretentious the people and vice versa.

[Grunty DaGnome]

I went to all state schools out west, where life is pretty casual, and wound up working with a bunch of ivy leaguers in Boston, many of whom can't talk to their plumber. The joke's on that guy who wrote the article. There's probably not alot to talk about with your plumber in Boston, because plumbers in Boston are about as interesting as Harvard and Yale grads in Boston. It's the weather. It makes people introverted, kind of dull, but extremely hard-working. If the author of this article wasn't so self-involved, he might have realized the plumber didn't know how to talk to him either.

[zep]

who am I kidding? I would go to an ivy in a heartbeat if they would have me....

But please, still, I'd like that one Ivy I applied to to admit me... Can't be the same way for PhDs, right?

Meh. Not sure about your fields, but in engineering and computer science, most of the Ivies aren't particularly special. Saying "Yale" or "Dartmouth" sounds cool in certain crowds, and they're certainly not bad choices for computer science programs. Still, ivies are safety schools for people who go to the top CS schools.

tl;dr Don't feel deprived if you go to a top school in your field that's not an ivy. There might not even be a top school in your field that's an ivy.

Edited December 12, 2011 by zep

[filmluv]

The article is a) way too long. He needs some serious editing and -- it's irrelevant.

Seriously dude if you wrote 8000 words to discuss how you can't talk to a plumber you need therapy.

To begin with -- that's a cultural stereotype. Plumbers can be well-paid. Second of all: TALKING TO PLUMBERS IS OVERRATED.

What does he think it's like 1940 and he's learning to converse with the "salt of the earth"?

I mean, really.

What a gasbag. Figures that a dude like that has an entire column at American Scholar.

I admit I skimmed because -- no editing!

Edited December 21, 2011 by filmluv

[koolherc]

The article is a) way too long. He needs some serious editing and -- it's irrelevant.

Seriously dude if you wrote 8000 words to discuss how you can't talk to a plumber you need therapy.

To begin with -- that's a cultural stereotype. Plumbers can be well-paid. Second of all: TALKING TO PLUMBERS IS OVERRATED.

What does he think it's like 1940 and he's learning to converse with the "salt of the earth"?

I mean, really.

What a gasbag. Figures that a dude like that has an entire column at American Scholar.

I admit I skimmed because -- no editing!

i liked this response. balanced, tactful, and concise

[eleanor]

Read the first paragraph, then skimmed the rest. I don't think I have felt more alienated by any journalist than this dude.