Do I have a chance?

[Banoon]

Hi all!

I'm heading into my final year of undergrad, and, consequently, I'm beginning to plan for grad school. I'm wondering if you all could help me discern where I have a chance of getting in with decent financial aid. Apologies in advance for the long post - I just want to make sure that I have all my credentials out there.

I am currently maintaining a 4.0 GPA and will be graduating with honors from a small, Christian, accredited liberal arts university, where I am studying Theology and English Literature. During the school year, I am actively involved in my university's Honors Congress and work as both a writing advisor for my university's writing center and a student tutor for the Theology department. I worked last summer as an editorial intern for an award-winning Christian publication and also have experience as a summer camp counselor. I studied abroad in the UK last year, and I am conducting original academic research in both of my major fields this summer through my home university. This upcoming year, I will be the Vice President of my university's chapter of Sigma Tau Delta (the National English Honors Society), of which I am a member.

I have not yet taken the GRE, but took a practice test completely blind, for which I received the following scores: 161 (Verbal), 155 (Quantitative), 4 (Analytical Writing). Standardized testing has never been my strong suit, especially standardized writing. But, that being said, I am currently enrolled in a course to help me boost my scores and am hoping to reach 164 (Verbal), 160 (Quantitative), and 6 (Analytical Writing).

In the future, I hope to pursue a PhD and join the academic community through teaching and writing. Here are the schools and programs that I am most interested in applying to, in order of preference:

Boston University (MDiv)
University of Chicago (MA)
Harvard Divinity School (MTS)
Princeton Theological Seminary (MATS)
Duke Divinity School (MTS)
Union Theological Seminary (MA)
New York University (MA)
Loyola University Chicago (MDiv)

Do you think I have a chance of getting into any of these places? If so, do you think I will receive a decent amount of financial aid? Are there any other places that you think would be worth taking a look at? Thank you so much for all of your help!

[xypathos]

Barring something we don't know about, I imagine you may get in just about everywhere. While 161 is low for a PhD applicant, you'd probably still survive a cutoff and a 164 would be even stronger. 

 

You raise the usual question about financial aid that most do. Here's my general advice: (1) MDIV programs almost always provide more and better funding, (2) if you're wanting to do something in BS (or literary analysis), historical, or traditional theology then you're going to need languages and sometimes A LOT of them and that third year can help and (3) given the state of the job market you need to maximize getting into Harvard, Yale,  Duke,  and Chicago. To a lesser extent Princeton, Union, Vanderbilt, BC, and BU and probably few others.

The common counter to the MDIV vs MA debate is that third year is spent taking courses like preaching or internship in a church. Some of this is certainly true but most programs allow students to cater that third year to their interests - they know not everyone is going into ministry. My MA and MDIV colleagues at Vanderbilt were TAing courses at local universities, same at Yale and Harvard.

The capabilities in Boston are almost impossible to beat. You can utilize the BTI to take courses at BC, BU, Harvard, EDS, and some othere.

Funding for a lot of M* programs tend to hinge on diversity issues rather than academic. This is a tough pill for a lot to swallow but it's the simple truth. 

[Rabbit Run]

For comparison, I when I applied for Masters degrees, I applied to 3 of the schools you listed, had basically the same stats as you, and got into 2 of them. The big name divinity schools and seminaries generally have admissions rates in the 50%-40% range, so the best strategy is to apply to several schools (6 or 7 is reasonable) so that you have a better shot of getting good financial aid somewhere, not so that you have a better shot of getting in somewhere. This might be different for NYU; I don't know the specifics for NYU, but schools like that  tend to have smaller cohorts for masters than divinity schools and seminaries and thus can have stricter admissions requirements (but also more possibilities for financial aid in some situations).

I echo xpathos' advice about the Mdiv verse MA. Some Mdiv programs have pretty strict requirements for courses, meaning you don't have the ability to take what you want/need in order to prep for PhD work. However this isn't the case for all Mdivs. I did an Mdiv and found the 3rd year critical for applying to PhDs: the third year gave me more time to figure out my interests, develop relationships with Professors, and learn languages. To be fair I was in an Mdiv program that had a fair amount of flexibility, but something to consider.

Finally, if you're going to apply to Mdiv programs you need to think  about what sort of formation you want. I say this because you have an Mdiv program at a Catholic school listed alongside programs at Protestant (or historically protestant, ecumenical institutions at least). The Mdiv degree has a fair bit of faith formation built into it, while this isn't universal, I won't recommend a Catholic do an Mdiv at a Protestant institution or vice versa, because of this aspect of "fit."

[sacklunch]

While I agree with most of what is said above....most MDiv programs will not allow you much freedom. Even if they do your third year, you still have TWO YEARS of fluff (from a strictly academic standpoint--and many are paying for that fluff). At most schools, these degrees are designed for future clergy/pastors. Yes, some do funnel students into good doctoral programs. But lots of students apply from the top divinity schools without success. Most of these schools have pretty high acceptance rates; and admins at top doctoral programs know this. Being at some of the top divinity schools gives many a false sense of security. But the truth is many smaller M* programs in religion at lesser known schools are harder to get into and one might argue are more rigorous (and thus prepare you better). Point being, if the money is more or less the same, go to the program that allows you the most freedom in your coursework. If 80% of your classes are predetermined and offer you no real advantage when applying for PhD programs, then I would pass. Tell us more about what you plan to study. My advice may be moot depending on your interests. 

[Almaqah Thwn]

On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 7:02 AM, Rabbit Run said:

Finally, if you're going to apply to Mdiv programs you need to think  about what sort of formation you want. I say this because you have an Mdiv program at a Catholic school listed alongside programs at Protestant (or historically protestant, ecumenical institutions at least). The Mdiv degree has a fair bit of faith formation built into it, while this isn't universal, I won't recommend a Catholic do an Mdiv at a Protestant institution or vice versa, because of this aspect of "fit."

As a moderate Protestant who went to a conservative, fundamentalist seminary, I would echo this sentiment. When you sit under theologically-aligned teaching with which you disagree continually for several years, it can start to grate on you. Once, we had a guest speaker in chapel who believed temples in the ancient Near East used plant imagery because they took it from the Garden of Eden and that the view that the Temple of Solomon reflected ancient Near Eastern norms with its plant imagery was "liberal." At that time, I had just been accepted into an Anthropology MA elsewhere and knew that such a statement was utterly ridiculous, but most other people seemed absolutely fine with it. 

Now given, you'd be taught by Catholics and not fundamentalists. But, it is worth considering whether you would be okay constantly sitting under a faith tradition with which you disagree. 

Edited June 29, 2016 by Almaqah Thwn

[mdivgirl]

Just an aside -- if you have a background in theology or biblical studies and can either test out of or waive certain requirements, you might be able to tailor your M.Div. degree more.  At my school, we had to take NT/OT tests and if we scored high enough, we could replace those slots with electives.  If you already had Greek or Hebrew, you could test out of those, too.  In my case, I had taken a two semester 400 level church history class in undergrad so was able to waive the two semesters of basic church history and replace them with upper level classes.  It's worth asking the schools.