Completely dishonest? Completely worth it?

[11Q13]

So a friend of mine (not me I promise) just told me a very smart but probably very dishonest way to get the best recommendations. She's doing all her apps by mail. Some of the schools she's applying to require 3 LORs, some require 4. Rather than bothering to figure out which require what number she just requested all the profs to write a rec for all the schools. So she'll have 4 recs for all of them meaning some she won't send. 1 recommender was nice enough to let her read the recommendation, and there is one she is positive wrote her a stellar rec, meaning there's only 2 she doesn't know about for sure. Would it be a one way ticket to hell if she opened the extra recs to see which one she would want to use as her third recommender to the schools that only require 3? I was frankly so impressed that she figured out she could do it that I thought I would pose the question to you guys.

Edited January 3, 2010 by 11Q13

[swisnieski]

Worth it? Yes.

But then again, doing the right thing is never easy.

[LateAntique]

Your friend should not look at them if she has waived her right to see them. I don't think kicking off your graduate career with an act of dishonesty is the way to go.

[KieBelle]

I've refrained from voicing my opinion on this subject in previous postings, but I'm gonna finally go out on this fragile limb and say what I think. Truly, I do not think it is some horrible moral transgression to look at a LOR in this situation, even if you've waived your right. This is your future, and if you can give yourself a better shot at getting in by reading what YOUR professors have written about YOU (it's not like you're violating anyone else's privacy), why not do it? I say people need to get off their moral high horse. I think those who argue that this is a very bad and dishonest thing to do need to put things back into perspective- this is NOT the same as cheating on an exam, plagiarizing a paper, etc. Now, I don't think everyone should just go around opening all their LORs. But if it is a specific situation such as this one, and it can truly affect whether or not you are accepted into grad school, do it.

For the record, I have never read any of my LORs- but not because I think it's a one-way ticket to Hades. I just don't want to know!

Let the stone throwing begin.

[JustChill]

I would definitely recommend against doing so. I know all of my recommendation providers very well, and have had multiple classes with each one of them, so I completely trust them and don't have any doubts about the quality of their recommendations. Don't be so cynical -- professors that know you well have no reason to write poor LORs.

[Ziz]

It does give a certain sense of control over the only element in the process that is out of our control. On the other hand, profs write for you with the understanding that you won't ever see their letters, so it does seem dishonest.

That being said, I'm divided. On one hand, your friend would have chosen people she thinks will say good things about her so she shouldn't need to read the letter. On the other hand, maybe someone just writes a better letter and it would help to know that.

Has she considered just sending all the letters to each school and not worrying about picking the 'best' ones?

Edited January 4, 2010 by Ziz

[acup313]

Has your friend considered explaining the situation to the professors involved and asking if they can read the letters. I know all of my professors would be cool with it, although I only needed 3.

[danstina]

i realize this doesnt answer the question exactly but i'm thinking that if she has already read one and KNOWS the other will be great, how drastically different can the other two really be? This is the same person we are talking about - how could two people recommend her highly and the others say anything completely different? Seems kinda pointless to me to feel the need to read them for fear one may be bad. WANTING to know what they say is different.

Edited January 4, 2010 by danstina

[11Q13]

Just to throw a bit more fuel to the fire and address some of the reassurances you guys have given. One of the reasons she is so tempted is because one of her recommenders, while being a professional in the field, hasn't written a grad school recommendation before.

[modernity]

I said this before in another thread. If she feels that she needs to see them/is worried they aren't strong, why can't she just ask her professors to see it? I do think its wrong to look at the letters if you waived your right, but I think in most cases professors would be willing to let you see if you asked. That way you're a) not doing anything wrong and B ) get to see your letter.

I think in most cases, if asked, professors would allow you to see the letters as they know it's deciding your future and you have vested interest.

Edited January 4, 2010 by modernity

[johndiligent]

Ha! I'm sensitive about the morality of mail-opening since my mum and dad opened (and continue to open despite very frequent requests not to do so) all of my mail for all of my life. Every letter from a boyfriend, every note from a pen pal, every gift from a friend, every piece of correspondence from a mentor - my parents rip open, read, and then once they've read it, tell me that I've received something in the mail at their address. As a result, I think that something that is addressed to someone else - even an admissions committee - is the business of the author and the addressee. NO ONE ELSE. It's a felony, Mom!

But I digress...

If I were your friend, I'd just send all four LOR's to every programme. Let them decide which ones they want kept in consideration.

[LateAntique]

No moral high horse here - it's just wrong. Is it murder? No. Is it still wrong? Yes. I'm not saying anyone's going to end up anywhere for doing it - I'm just saying that it's dishonest.

Also, when you ask letter writers to write you a letter, you should ask them if they will write you a strong letter. If you do this, you'll have no worries about your LoRs. Secondly, I think people only come on here and start these posts to see how many people are willing to justify their dishonesty. If you're going to do it, just do it.

[socialcomm]

No moral high horse here - it's just wrong. Is it murder? No. Is it still wrong? Yes. I'm not saying anyone's going to end up anywhere for doing it - I'm just saying that it's dishonest.

Also, when you ask letter writers to write you a letter, you should ask them if they will write you a strong letter. If you do this, you'll have no worries about your LoRs. Secondly, I think people only come on here and start these posts to see how many people are willing to justify their dishonesty. If you're going to do it, just do it.

This exactly. And in addition to strong, you can even be specific and ask for a strong, positive letter.

[jacib]

This exactly. And in addition to strong, you can even be specific and ask for a strong, positive letter.

There are enough intrinsic differences that it shouldn't be necessary to read the letters. One of them is in the field and has never written a letter before? Well since that one is in the field, they should probably stay. That means there are two. Your friend chose 4 people to write recs, not 5, so there is obviously a sense that these were the best four. If they can choose the most appropriate four, then they can choose the most appropriate three.

I had this same problem (but I was doing all mine online) and I switched between two former graduate instructors for my third rec; only two schools allowed three letters and only three letters, and the first I did with one (because I felt like he knew me better) and the second I did with the other (because the first one hadn't been submitted any letters yet, even though it was a few weeks after the first deadline).

There are many factors here. I mean, if you knew you could get away with plagiarism would you? Again, a victimless crime. I agree with whoever said that intellectual dishonesty is probably not the way you want to start off grad school.

(Yes in a different place I did defend someone who read a letter... but I think there is a difference between discouraging a bad deed before it is done and condemning it afterward).

The thing is here: what if one is mediocre? Will the read then start to worry about all the others and be miserable for the next two months? I think there is more to risk than to gain. Your friend waved their right and a (wo)man is only as good as h(is/h)er word.

[jacib]

This exactly. And in addition to strong, you can even be specific and ask for a strong, positive letter.

Actually my dad's a professor, and I had him look at the drafts for letters I wrote asking for recs. He made me take that part out because he thought it sounded stupid. I forget what he made me take out, but definitely the word "positive" had to go according to him. Not that it matters obviously, I think he just thought it was stupid and redundant. I had included it because that's what we were uniformly taught in high school, but I think when applying to graduate school, recs will be between good and bland, instead of among good, bland, and bad. I think it would take a lot for a professor to write a negative recommendation. I mean obviously you don't lose points for asking for a positive rec, but I don't think it is an effective gatekeeper which causes that many professors to demur.

[gremot]

I guess the cultural background is really different in US from where I'm from.

Not only did all my professors email me their LOR's (to see if I was happy with them, if I wanted sth to be added etc) but for the ones to be mailed, (didn't have any this time, but have had previously) I had to put them into envelopes myself, seal them and send them off. That's just how things are done here - noone will bother themselves with such petty things.

I have previously even mailed my transcripts and other school documentation myself, because the department wouldn't do it. They handed me them on paper and said to deal with this on my own... First time I paniced - how can I just mail stuff myself, but now I've gotten used to it...

[modernity]

I guess the cultural background is really different in US from where I'm from.

I had to put them into envelopes myself, seal them and send them off. That's just how things are done here - noone will bother themselves with such petty things.

Yes, it's very different here in the US. Some schools go so far as to ask for LOR's on letterhead, and for the seal of the envelope to have the signature of the LOR writer on it to ensure the student has not handled the contents. Other's don't even want the envelope in the student's possession - they want a direct send from prof. to school. I've heard of schools accusing students of reading the letters- and thus disqualifying themselves just for having sent the envelopes his/herself instead of having the LOR do it (this is going overboard in my opinion).

I think a lot of us wish that it were a little bit more low key here, and it would certainly negate this "should I read? should I not read?" dilemma that happens to applicants each year. As I said before, I think its wrong to read them but I can certainly sympathize with the anguish of having a large portion of your future in another person's hands.

[qberta]

i'd recommend against your friend reading the letters. not for ethical reasons as much as because it'll make them crazy. who knows--maybe a letter that sounds better to the applicant won't play as strong with the adcom. likely, both letters will be strong & they still won't know what to submit. and then they'll feel guilty, too. this process needs no additional bad feeling & doubt in it.

if they're really unsure, and really not submitting more than 3 recs, they can split it up half and half. then analyze the results and determine which letter was better.

me, i had 4 recommenders & sent in 4 letters to some programs that only required 3. let them open them all up & read them & figure out which they like best.

[RoseThrn82]

I sort of don't get this... by the way, my vote is do not look at them just pick randomly and send them. OR send all of them. However, I don't get it because if the person does open and read them does that not mean that they then have to seal and sign the flap of the envelope too? As that is signing someone else's name and is worst than just reading it. I don't think that you would be the worst person in the world if you read it, but I just think to prevent yourself from having morally questioning thoughts afterward, that the person should just avoid doing it in the first place. I have been placed in a situation like this before in my case I had a rec write it for me and it was an outstanding recommendation... I then wanted another letter later on (about a year later) and the rec told me to just modify the one I had and to sign there name on it. Also, told me I had permission to use it over as much as I needed (sign it as much as I needed). Now granted this rec and I have a great professional relationship, but that's out there. I wonder what would some of you do in that situation where you've been GIVEN PERMISSION for something like this. I couldn't bring myself to do it because I just wondered what would happen if that ever backfired on me. It's just not that serious! I just got a rec from someone else. So I guess my point is that, even though its about your future its just not that serious. Just tell the friend to do Eeny, meeny, miny, moe and send it. hehe :-)

[javagdss]

If your friend opens one copy of each letter, they will be short 1 copy of the better one and will have to send the weaker one to at least one school (assuming one letter is weaker than the other).

Logistics aside, opening them seems to cross the line. True, many references show you the letter, and many more will do so if asked. But your friend didn't ask.

Now how does this situation compare to holding the sealed envelopes up to the light? (Just curious...)

[Matilda_Tone]

I don’t see it as a terrible sin. I suppose asking for extras/lying about your need for said extras is dishonest (though there are far more serious forms of academic dishonesty).

I ended up being able to see both of mine, and I like to think that this doesn’t make me a bad person. A scholarship I requested letters for was discontinued, so I ended up with extras unintentionally. I tried to give one back, to a professor I know well and who I told about the scholarship change, but he insisted that I keep and read it. My other professor had gone off on sabbatical by then, and I opened his out of pure curiosity. I don’t think he would have minded anyway.

I think curiosity, rather than worry, is the main reason for opening them. I was not worried that they had said anything bad- but it is always interesting to know what people respect think about your work.

[ridgey]

The way I "know" opening letters is wrong, absent permission and especially if the "waive my rights" box is ticked, is this: if I were in that situation, planning to read the letters, my fear would be the writer finding out. If it were a legit course of action, then I wouldn't worry. The fear of getting caught indicates that the action is wrong.

I had the opportunity today to read a letter from the writer I'm most iffy about. I thought he had forgotten this school and didn't want to bug him, so lined up a replacement. Today, I found that he'd left the letter for me in my second mailslot in the department, which I don't check often. It crossed my mind to read it, but I knew that 1) I could never look him in the eye again, and 2)sometimes it's better not to know. I just sent it to the programme anyway - it'll be late but I already have the right number and it's better the programme ignore it than it sit around tempting me.