When to have children?

[rising_star]

So, we've had this conversation in a few other places but I wanted to create a more centralized place for the discussion. Is it better to have children in graduate school or once you've earned the PhD? And, if in graduate school, when?

This morning I was watching Good Morning America and heard this story, which says that study results show that 90% of a woman's eggs are lost by the age of 30. That could be bad news for some of the people on this forum planning to wait to have children...

And, guys, feel free to chime in too. If your partner has a child while you're in graduate school, how will that affect you?

[johndiligent]

I think the right time to have children is when the individual(s) concerned is/are ready to have children. There are far too many factors at play to boil it down to a question of whether during the PhD or after the PhD is more convenient. It's really going to be a vastly different scenario for everyone involved. I think, if a PhD student really wants kids now, it can be made to work. But if the same student can't handle having children right now, then it's better to wait until things are more stable.

I'd hate people to feel like there's a ticking clock involved, because there are a multitude of options for those who can't have conceive the usual way and I'd bet there will be even more options developed in the next decade.

[anxiousapplicant]

I like "never" myself.

[naptown]

I like "never" myself.

I agree over here. Not everyone chooses to procreate.

[peppermint.beatnik]

I think the right time to have children is when the individual(s) concerned is/are ready to have children. There are far too many factors at play to boil it down to a question of whether during the PhD or after the PhD is more convenient. It's really going to be a vastly different scenario for everyone involved. I think, if a PhD student really wants kids now, it can be made to work. But if the same student can't handle having children right now, then it's better to wait until things are more stable.

I'd hate people to feel like there's a ticking clock involved, because there are a multitude of options for those who can't have conceive the usual way and I'd bet there will be even more options developed in the next decade.

I'm more along this line of thought (discussed in other thread).

I don't worry much about fertility issues, given my family history. That's not to say I'm not defective, but I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it.

When you hear of a woman having a third child at 41, it's true that giving birth to previous children is an advantage. It's more likely than I woman trying to conceive her first child at 41.

Whenever I'm home visiting my family, and my nieces and nephews are there, my SO and I return exhausted. I know everyone says its different with your own children, but we're both not ready.

[UnlikelyGrad]

So, we've had this conversation in a few other places but I wanted to create a more centralized place for the discussion. Is it better to have children in graduate school or once you've earned the PhD? And, if in graduate school, when?

This morning I was watching Good Morning America and heard this story, which says that study results show that 90% of a woman's eggs are lost by the age of 30. That could be bad news for some of the people on this forum planning to wait to have children...

And, guys, feel free to chime in too. If your partner has a child while you're in graduate school, how will that affect you?

I'm an aberration--someone who took time off between undergrad and grad specifically to have kids. But my sister had two children during grad school and it worked out well. She said that, as tiring as grad school was, it was good that she did it then instead of after starting a tenure-track position.

[Lauren the Librarian]

I've posted a few times on this subject already, but will add some more here.

I think the key concern is understanding what children are, how much of your time and energy they demand, and how much they will change a single person's (or married couple's) life.

Correcting their mistakes and guiding them in their lives (A.K.A. "parenting") is a mental-energy intensive enterprise. Babies are adorable, but they won't necessarily nap when you need to finish a chapter. And while it's possible for toddlers to stay quiet for a "bit", be prepared to be interrupted every 15 minutes until you say to your significant other, "Hon, I'm going to Barnes&Nobles. I'll be back when I'm done." I briefly had great childcare (nationally accredited and located on campus) during undergrad but there were days when I had to tell my exhausted and sickypoo 3 year old that she had to go to pre-school so I could take a final exam. (ugh, not my proudest moment) That's not counting days where I got sick (rare, but it happens) and could barely muster the energy to take care of myself. My kid was extremely healthy and still got sick once or twice a year. One time she was vomiting for 3 days straight and I missed out on that whole week of class and study time and ended up with a 2.8 GPA that quarter (she recovered nicely, though).

Being pregnant and ABD isn't necessarily better either. What if you get pre-eclampsia? What if you need 24 hour bedrest and can't go into your office to meet with anyone? Pregnancy (or the adoption process) requires large amounts of planning and time. As a grad student, your mind is loaded with ideas and theories; that's what dedicated study is all about. Personally, it is difficult for me to think logically and linearly when I've got baby on the brain. Whether they're 6 months in utero or 36 months outside the womb be prepared to be interrupted every 15 minutes. I'm a fantastic multi-tasker now, but only for things that can be completed piece by piece: throw the laundry in, get dinner started, start the water for a bath, check on dinner, collect the W-2's for tax season, hand the car registration over to hubby to deal with, and unload the dishwasher so we can get the dirty dishes off the counter. When I finally have a moment to myself to actually think about my work, it takes a few minutes to unwind from all that chaos to get into the grad student mindset. It's one thing to be an absent minded professor if you live alone or have a non-working, supportive spouse. It's a different ballgame when everyone has lives and jobs and responsibilities. That kid will turn your life into a family life, and you'll never be "just a student" again.

Take a real life example: I had a fantastic day yesterday. Traffic only tacked 15 minutes on to my morning commute. I had a fruitful meeting with the career counselor at 8am, awesome class from 9 to noon and special office hours (my prof shared his lunch break to answer my questions about the class) until 1pm. In the computer lab, I signed up for a short course in web design, and printed out the readings due for next week's class discussion, as well as the registration forms for my 5 year-old's summer ballet course. The roads were dry for my trip home and I was greeted with hugs and smiles by my husband and child. I got a late lunch started, kissed my husband before he took off for work (his gracious boss let him shift his work schedule so I could take this class). I had lunch with the munchkin, played some tic-tac-toe (wow, she gets angry when she loses ) then put on Dinosaur Train (Yay PBS!) while I figured out which article I could read knowing I'd be interrupted in 28 minutes. I got one article read, started on dinner, checked the mail, and paid the rent. I told myself no "Bones" until I finished 2 articles (thank goodness for TiVo) and locked myself in my room until I finished them. My husband came home to find me passed out on the bed with munchkin snuggled nearby. We all sat together for dinner and shared our stories for the day. I was too tired to read to the kid last night (we're halfway through "Stuart Little") so my husband taught her about fire safety with some work he had to do with a gas torch. We got hugs and kisses in before I hit the hay and my husband did the final "pajamas on, brushing of teeth, and into bed" routine. I woke up this morning and watched "Bones", checked my email and am gonna go knock out two more articles before I complete my online IRB training and email the certificate to my professor.

I'm not advocating women avoid graduate study. I do think it would be most fufilling for all people involved (including babies) to either do grad school before the family happens, or to wait until the child is sufficiently grown (5-6 years old and in kindergarden at least) before embarking on a graduate school adventure. In my case, I think a masters program will be okay for our family, but I am putting off my PhD until munchkin is at least 10 years old. I don't want to have to split my attentions between my two loves (family and academia) because one or both will suffer.

Children are incredibly dependent small humans. Yet, their size has no effect on the amount of poop they produce (nor the direction it will shoot from their butts) or on the decible levels they can surpass. They are learning and growing so much as the days go on, they will look to you for guidance and support at all hours of the day regardless of your deadlines or lab schedules. Even if someone is temporarily watching your child, your mind will always be distracted with thoughts of their well-being. It's great if they're healthy and happy and have the right temperment to match your academic goals and schedule, but it very rarely happens that way. You must always be prepared for sickness(ADHD, asthma, IBS, sniffles, unknown fever), difficult behavior(biting, boredom, pooping on the carpet), and troublesome in-laws that demand to stay at your place and be entertained when the baby comes. Having a chapter due on Wednesday doesn't excuse you from familial responsibilities.

It's rewarding to have a family, but it is a lot of work.

[mlle]

This morning I was watching Good Morning America and heard this story, which says that study results show that 90% of a woman's eggs are lost by the age of 30. That could be bad news for some of the people on this forum planning to wait to have children...

Oh, for God's sake. Nothing like more decontextualized pop science tossed out by the media to strike fear and panic in our hearts. As if women don't have enough on their minds while they're trying to put their lives together. The news blurb doesn't mention at all how many eggs a woman has to begin with and how many eggs she actually pops out during her lifetime. I had always heard that a woman is born with TONS and TONS of eggs that she'll never ever use up during all her lifetime of menstruating. Am I mistaken about that? I just feel like that interview was organized by the Grandmothers in Defense of Selfless Motherhood and the Cult of Domesticity Coalition.

I'm not denying biology or saying I agree that it's perfectly fine to wait until you're 40 to try to get pregnant, I'm just saying I think that news report was totally incomplete. And the piece about telling women to lose weight--lose weight if you're obese, fine, but to make a brief blanket statement that you should lose weight to increase fertility....if I were one of the people who worked on the featured study, I would be super pissed that Good Morning America would make such a mockery out of it.

For the record, I have heard professorial testimony that it's logistically easier to have kids during, rather than after grad school. Since having kids isn't one of my big priorities in life, I don't have many of my own thoughts to comment on the issue other than I think it's way too easy to skew such discussions with personal ideology.

[downtownchick]

I like "never" myself.

Third

[Pamphilia]

I like "never" myself.

I always figured I would want kids someday until I started teaching them. Now I have no desire to have a child. Ever.

[Lauren the Librarian]

I always figured I would want kids someday until I started teaching them. Now I have no desire to have a child. Ever.

I know a lot of people like that. My good friends, family, aquaintances.... many thought having kids was an obvious thing to do, or what they should do, or should want to do. But after spending time with them, teaching them, really thinking about the responsibilities, they came to the conclusion of "never". I'm glad they figured it out. The alternative mess can be witnessed with parents that are realizing how they're not cut out for it and they have made an irreversible life choice. It's rough on everyone involved.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Lauren the Librarian

[Smaudge]

I want a big family, somewhere around 4 kids. I grew up in a 4 kid family and loved it, and my grad school husband is in agreement. (However, every mother I've talked to always rolls her eyes at my number and says "Wait until you have one") Right now we're young and newlywed.. not really thinking about kids. However, now that I'm seriously thinking about what my life will be like in six years, I'm trying to mentally fit our family dreams into the mix. I posed this question on another thread, but might as well repeat it here: Is it unusual to take time off between graduating with a PhD and getting a teaching position?

[jordy]

I'm glad you (OP) brought up the guys too. It really burns me up how in academia, planning children is even more heavily seen as a "mother's" issue instead of a "parent's" issue. I've heard awful stories of advisors cutting funding for advanced female students who decided to have children, but didn't even think of doing this to male students whose made this choice. I realize pregnancy has certain health/physical concerns attached to it that can affect your work after a certain point, no argument there. But in talking about kids in general, is the child less of your responsibility just because it didn't directly come out of you? I vote no, and I refuse to have children with someone who doesn't understand this (by the way, glad to hear of so many supportive dads/husbands out there). It would also depend on what kind of job my partner had and the kind of availability and income that came along with it.

Now all that is assuming I ever do want kids, which right now I don't. I'm just assuming that one day I'll change my mind, though there's a likelihood that I won't.

Edited January 29, 2010 by jordy

[jacib]

Re: Smaudge, I think taking time off between a PhD and a teaching position is rare but not unheard of. I have noticed a distinctive gap in one or two professors' CVs (Tomoko Masuzawa springs to mind). I assumed it was for the children.

So, we've had this conversation in a few other places but I wanted to create a more centralized place for the discussion. Is it better to have children in graduate school or once you've earned the PhD? And, if in graduate school, when?

This morning I was watching Good Morning America and heard this story, which says that study results show that 90% of a woman's eggs are lost by the age of 30. That could be bad news for some of the people on this forum planning to wait to have children...

And, guys, feel free to chime in too. If your partner has a child while you're in graduate school, how will that affect you?

My mother was 30 when my sister was born. She was 35 when I was born. Both of these births were without fertility treatment, which raises the level odds of successful fertilization, especially in older women (most of the 40+ pregnant women you hear about had fertility treatment). I don't think one should see 30 as an end all point. Waiting until she left school (in her case medical school) was important for my mother because her mother had children at age 19, and had a very difficult time because of it (though my granny later went back and got a PhD, I believe). It's more about being the right time in your life (and your partner's life) than being the right age. Trying to juggle attending classes is very difficult (that's what my grandmother always emphasized, Lauren... she's told me so many stories about missing class because someone didn't show up to take the kids!), but I think if you are in a place where you can set your one schedule (research, beginning to teach on your own) having children and attending grad school would be easier than having children and having most full time jobs.

Academia is nice because it give you a more adjustable schedule (I don't know if this is quite the same if you run a lab, but its true for my fields at least). That's one of the reason it appeals to me: so I can have a career where I can set my schedule to facilitate having a family, because who knows if my future imaginary partner will have an adjustable schedule (being son of a doctor and a professor, I can definitely tell you which one was able to take me to soccer practice and pick me up from friends' houses). I disagree with Lauren that ABD means one shouldn't get pregnant... but perhaps one could take a short leave from teaching the quarter where one is x months pregnant (5/6?) and beyond, which seemed to be par for the course with the pregnant professors and graduate student instructors I saw pregnant during my undergrad.

[Lauren the Librarian]

I disagree with Lauren that ABD means one shouldn't get pregnant... but perhaps one could take a short leave from teaching the quarter where one is x months pregnant (5/6?) and beyond, which seemed to be par for the course with the pregnant professors and graduate student instructors I saw pregnant during my undergrad.

I wasn't saying one should or shouldn't get pregnant. I apologize if I came across so diffinitively judgmental. I meant so many unexpected things happen during pregnancy (and life in general, but especially when kids are involved) that both sexes should be aware of the potential gravity of the outcomes of these unexpected events (that are statistically not so unexpected sometimes). I agree that there is a sweet spot for taking leave for expectant parents while working on a PhD. That 5/6 months thing sounds familiar. I know a few moms that did that, but rarely the dads. I do know of one case where a father quit work because his wife was further along in her career and could make more money. It's all very personal. My hope in sharing my experiences and opinions is that it will make whoever reads this thread better prepared for parenthood, so that there is a better outcome for everyone involved.

[Jennszoo]

I'm hopefully going into a masters with 3 kids in tow. I'll report back in 3 yrs if I survive.

[jacib]

I wasn't saying one should or shouldn't get pregnant. I apologize if I came across so diffinitively judgmental. I meant so many unexpected things happen during pregnancy (and life in general, but especially when kids are involved) that both sexes should be aware of the potential gravity of the outcomes of these unexpected events (that are statistically not so unexpected sometimes). I agree that there is a sweet spot for taking leave for expectant parents while working on a PhD. That 5/6 months thing sounds familiar. I know a few moms that did that, but rarely the dads. I do know of one case where a father quit work because his wife was further along in her career and could make more money. It's all very personal. My hope in sharing my experiences and opinions is that it will make whoever reads this thread better prepared for parenthood, so that there is a better outcome for everyone involved.

No no you didn't sound like you were judgemental! You sounded like you were giving advice based on experience, and I was just suggesting a third way which you didn't explicitly mention. Man, we seem to accidentally offend each other and then appologize a lot, Lauren!

As a note, my (male) thesis adviser for undergrad definitely told me that he wasn't going to be teaching the quarter my thesis was due because his girlfriend (they've since married) was having a baby! He just got to take that time off as unpaid medical leave, I think. (Maybe he wasn't going to be teaching much I don't remember... my thesis was due the second week of the quarter so I didn't really talk to him then). Anyway, another reason why academia is great.

[red_crayons]

The town where I live right now is sort of isolated, so family life gets a lot of attention. Family and professional life closely intersect for a lot of faculty I've known here.

The university where I work recently changed "maternal leave" to "parental leave", and built a brand-new, state of the art day care facility with 200+ child capacity. There is a special category of leave for caring for sick/dependent family members, and departments are required to allow you to take that time if necessary. Otherwise, staff/faculty can sic the entire hugely bureaucratic HR system on the inflexible supervisor and "suggest" that they do sensitivity and leadership training programs. I'm not sure to what extent this applies to graduate students, but I would suspect they have more rights here than elsewhere.

I'm sure it varies by department, but faculty are under pressure from the administration to be flexible with family issues. Clearly, if I go here, having children would be a LOT easier than at other universities or workplaces.

Also: Lauren, I loved your post. Lots of food for thought, and very well said!

Edited January 30, 2010 by red_crayons

[Lauren the Librarian]

Man, we seem to accidentally offend each other and then appologize a lot, Lauren!

Agreed. No more apologizing for me. Next person who gets offended will just have to deal.

Jennszoo: Good luck to you! It's all about balance, as I'm sure you already know. I found evaluating myself as my daughter's role model (doing what I'd want my daughter to do with her kids) to be the best way to gauge how I'm doing as a parent. I hope all goes well with you and yours!

[eikko]

This is a tricky question for me. I'll be 25 when I start, if I get into a PhD program with some funding for fall '10. I'd like to have kids when I'm 29 or 30ish, just because it seems like a nice age to become a parent. Also, I'd like to have 3 kids, ideally, so if I'm not gonna be too old when I (or my girlfriend, yup I'm gay) have the kids.

Right now I'm doing an MA at a Swedish university, where the doctoral students are considered employees. They get parental leave up to 16 months, to be shared between the parents (at least 2 months must be taken by the dad/other parent). I don't really have much of an idea of how this works for PhD students in the US-- is there any sort of leave allowed? Or do people just continue studying after the baby is born? I assume if you take leave, you don't get any sort of paid leave as you do in Sweden.

It would be helpful to hear from someone who has gone through this!

[kahlan_amnell]

So, we've had this conversation in a few other places but I wanted to create a more centralized place for the discussion. Is it better to have children in graduate school or once you've earned the PhD? And, if in graduate school, when?

This morning I was watching Good Morning America and heard this story, which says that study results show that 90% of a woman's eggs are lost by the age of 30. That could be bad news for some of the people on this forum planning to wait to have children...

And, guys, feel free to chime in too. If your partner has a child while you're in graduate school, how will that affect you?

I'd like to see the actual study that report was based on. TV reports on science almost always leave out the majority of the information you need to know if the study reliable or not.

Edited January 31, 2010 by kahlan_amnell

[johndiligent]

I'd like to see the actual study that report was based on. TV reports on science almost always leave out the majority of the information you need to know if the study reliable or not.

The way the study was represented in the media was criticised by a med school on my local news for giving a false impression of the numbers. Yes, 90% of a woman's eggs are lost by age 30, but a woman typically starts out with 300,000+ eggs. After 90% are lost, that still leaves you with at least 30,000 eggs.

[hogmommy]

I have two children (4 and 6) and am applying to a combined MA/PhD program for the fall--my youngest will start kindergarten in August.) Do I wish I had gone directly from my undergrad into grad school and finished my PhD before starting a family? Sometimes. Am I thrilled to have had the opportunity to devote myself completely to my children for the past nearly 7 years? Absolutely.

[shaydlip]

As to timing as an academic, I've always heard when you are ABD is the best time to have children, probably if you are in the sciences after you've collected a majority of data. But if you are writing up that's the best time because you can do it at home.

[NervousNellie]

I have two kids already as well, and am currently applying for a masters program. I have been out of school and working in a vocational career path for 8-10 years or so. My particular vocational work is really demanding and emotionally intensive, albeit with flexibility of schedule. I understand school will be really demanding as well. I am not sure if having kids in one or the other is better. Waiting until one is "done" with studies has its pros and cons.

Actually, my wife used to work in a preschool program on a campus of undergrad and grad students. I got to know those families well, and truly they were some of the happiest families I've ever known. They had this great, supportive network amongst themselves. They had potlucks and cookouts together, and when things got rough for one family or another, the community stepped in to help out whenever possible. I've found working while having young children a lonely experience in my field. A lot of folks are older than me and their kids are grown or nearly so. Grad studies demand everything of students, but there will be a community (in some cases smaller, in some cases bigger, depending on where you choose to study) of parents with whom to share the journey. One of the programs I am applying to caught my attention partly because it has a strong community of families on campus.

The thing that terrifies me is that I might have to work and study at the same time. If this is the case, I will have to either take "forever and eternity" LOL to finish my studies, with less access to funding opportunities since I won't be studying full time...OR...I will have to put my nose to the grindstone and miss out on a good deal of the next three years of my kids lives.

As a working mom of two very young kids (my kids are eleven months apart and will 4 and 5 years old as of late spring), I've often said that I constantly feel I am failing either in my work or at home with my children. "Balance" seems pretty elusive to me. Instead, I'd describe my life as more of a giant pendulum swing, from feeling great about work to feeling great about home. If I stay too long at one end or the other, it gets mighty, mighty uncomfortable because you can only let one thing fail for so long without wanting to give up. I think my feelings while in school will be similar, but there I will be able to say, "this is just three years." I also am following really in the footsteps of my father, who completed both his undergraduate and graduate studies (and worked through a lot of it) with four kids. I remember sitting outside a couple of his classes as a kid, and that memory holds incredible power in my own decisions to pursue advanced studies. I don't know that I'd do it otherwise.

I want four kids also. (And to those who say, "wait till you have one" to those who have none, I'd say I subscribe to the threshold theory and believe that there is a number at which it actually gets easier in some ways...though unfortunately that number might be closer to five or six, and my wife doesn't want that many). We are thinking that toward the end of my third year of studies, I may try to get pregnant again (now you know my gender) or we may begin the adoption process again. There is never a perfect time, and at that time I'll be looking at starting an internship (oy!), but I will also be approaching an age when I'll be seeing my last shots at a healthy pregnancy. Also, my kids will then be eight and seven, and I really don't want the spacing to be that great in the first place. I'm not comfortable waiting much longer after that. I am under no illusion that those things (pregnancy and/or adoption) happen in a swift timeframe in most cases, and suspect that neither will succesfully conclude in that third year of my studies. I had secondary infertility (the inability to get pregnant after a pregnancy), and both of my current little ones after fostering. I came from a fertile family, by the way.

So all this to say, "when to have kids?" There is no right answer as far as I can tell.

Edited February 1, 2010 by NervousNellie