History of Art MA/PhD 2008

[stylefaxee]

Hey smellie and renaissance08,

I just heard from NYU today (via e-mail). I think I shouted FINALLY pretty loudly when it popped up on the screen because my supervisor was giving me major space this afternoon -- so I would imagine you should know pretty soon, smellie, because I'm 18th-19th century (and I applied for the master's, too). I think they're rolling them out veeery slowly.

[Renaissance08]

Congratulations stylefaxee!! I heard today too, but unfortunately no funding :-( I have another offer for full tuition + stipend, I'm so disappointed, but it just doesn't make sense to get myself into sooooo much debt when I can completely avoid loans with my other offer... At least it's my choice, and I don't have to feel like I didn't have the chance.

Did you have better luck with funding?

[stylefaxee]

Thanks, Renaissance08! And congratulations to you too! I also was offered no funding, sadly...and with an offer of full support from another great program I'd probably be crazy to consider NYU. I totally agree with you -- it's so much nicer to be able to say no to them than vice versa!

I think I'm going to visit anyways - it's still going to be a difficult decision. NYU was my first choice and in terms of what I want to study, I think it's a better fit for me. But I'm not sure that I can justify going into $50,000 debt for the first year alone, without funding guaranteed for the second year and beyond. I'm really bummed.

[Renaissance08]

You're right, a visit can't hurt. But you may fall in love with it, which would make it even harder to pass up! (I did when I visited; the building is absolutely gorgeous, especially when you're used to NY architecture and cramped spaces). It was my first choice too, so yes, very disappointing (my other offer will mean a 2-hour commute for me, each way... I'm not really in a position where I can move right now, so that's also a bit hard to stomach). I feel exactly the same way about getting into debt--especially because it's not like law school or med school, where you know as soon as you get out you'll be making enough to put aside a substantial amount to pay back loans. One of my undergrad art history professors at NYU just defended at the IFA about 3 years ago, and though she now has this awesome gig teaching at NYU, she revealed to me the brutal reality that she's only making $15,000/yr. Not enough to live on, much less pay back loans. She may abandon academia, maybe even art history all together (amazing that she didn't deter me from entering the field, no?)

Where is your other offer?

[stylefaxee]

For me this is such a clear-cut situation of heart vs. head. My heart is set on going to NYU, but my head is telling me that going there would be committing financial suicide. Hearing more horror stories like that of your professor ($15,000 / year - yikes!!!!) does help, though. I'm hoping that if I vist I will hear more complaints from graduate students, which will be even more of a deterrent.

My other offer is at Northwestern, where I will probably end up. I was actually phoned by two professors when I got in, and I had such a warm and fuzzy feeling afterwards. They were so nice and really interested in my research. It seems like a very supportive department. And the full tuition/stipend/health insurance deal for five years helps too . It's just a much smaller department (which is both good and bad) with fewer classes offered. And nobody's doing eighteenth century. And while Chicago is a fabulous city and I like living here, for someone studying art history there's no comparison with New York. I don't mean to sound petulant; I'm very very happy about getting into Northwestern. But it's hard to give up my dream school.

I'm in the same boat with you about the commute - well, mine would be around an hour and a half if I stayed here. Definitely unpalatable. Your other program is Rutgers, right? Have you visited the campus, talked to graduate students about their experiences there?

Does anyone have any insight regarding Northwestern? A bunch of my professors went there and they wax poetic about the program but if anyone has more recent experiences with it, I would be grateful.

[dontknowwheretogo]

Re: Northwestern

One of the most engaging, interesting, intelligent and inspiring professors I've ever had went there. She also used to take part in "tableaux vivants" type things there. Sounds cool.

[travelingartmuse]

Congratulations to all of you with admission acceptance notifications. What a relief for you. I am still awaiting on two, Princeton and NYU. Does anyone know if all Princeton notifications both accept/reject/waitlist have gone out? I just find it odd that they publish that all decisions will be out by March 15 and I've heard nothing! NYU is always historically late. This is my third year of appyling to programs and again, I find myself 0-6 (with the two outstanding). Mew27 your story was enlightening, because at this point that is exactly what I am hoping is happening to me. Even though it is not what we would like to believe happens, but remember Education like everything is a business. If one of the heads of the families did not give me a nod, then my dream of getting a PhD is over. Princeton would be the best fit for me as my research interests most closely matches the person I'd like to work with. However, she is on sabbatical this semester and probably not on the admissions committee for all I know. At NYU,the person I'd work with is probably going to retire (as most of them are very soon...so perhaps why this is taking so long?). I guess I am just looking for any ray of hope out there?

A little about me, I have an MA in Humanities from a Jesuit U. with a focus on Medieval/Renaissance Art History. Interested in Islamic influences (congrats NOBOD). Applied after that and rejected by all. Moved to NYC to take classes at Columbia thru Cont. Ed and prove to myself and the Ivies that I can handle Ivy work = Non-matriculated success. Interned and researched with a well-respected curator at a very prestigious museum on an exhibition that directly related to my thesis and area of focus. Was hired full time in an Administrative capacity in Education at the Museum. Reapplied to programs with a recommendation from this curator who is also a prof at Bard. Rejects to date: Bard, CUNY, Columbia, and Yale (took classes at Columbia with Prof now at Yale). I don't know how I could have networked better or prove to be a strong candidate. Plus, the Museum would pay for tuition! I am heartbroken.

As for those of you who already have received notification from the IFA: For what its worth, and this reiterates what some others have posted: The IFA is notorious for creating an atmosphere and environment that is highly-competitive and somewhat unpleasant for study and collegiality amongst its students. I have talked to and work with many who are in and have gone through the program and this is the one point they all highlight, and have candidly admitted in retrospect, they would have chosen a different offer. As for only not receiving funding in the first year, living in New York is hard and expensive. The IFA building is a historic, landmark mansion on Fifth Ave., beautiful and a great location (across from Central Park and The Met). Definitely budget living costs seriously into your decision. With that said, as you all know NYU's program is prestigious and living in NYC has its advantages for art world opportunities depending on where you'd like to be. If you think you may want to do some museum work with your PhD, then absolutely consider it. The competition after you graduate to come from the outside into the NYC scene is even more competitive than the admissions process.

I hope this helps and I'd be glad to answer any specific questions you may have about NYC (ie. living on the UES or elsewhere...)

Thanks for this forum, I wish I had found it months ago! Please let me know about Princeton if you have any insights.

[smellie]

Re: Northwestern

My school just got a prof who'd been teaching at Northwestern, and she is one of the most intelligent professors I ever had. I'm not sure exactly why she decided to move, but if all the profs at NU are like her, you'd come out as a very strong scholar at the end of your education in NU

[Renaissance08]

Work was so stressful today, I was actually able to think about something *other* than grad school for a little while! An ironic relief...

Unfortunately, I have to second a lot of what travelingartmuse wrote about the IFA and living in NY.

stylefaxee--

I also had a much warmer, fuzzier feel from the Rutgers faculty and director. I got a personal email regarding my acceptance, and another one regarding my fellowship offer--as you probably saw from NYU, much different from the very generic one they sent. I did visit the Rutgers campus; my potential advisor there invited me to sit in on a class of hers. When I did, she introduced me to everyone (about 10 students) in the class by their first and last names. Coming from NYU undergrad, this was very striking to me. Afterwards, she asked the class if anyone wanted to join us for an informal lunch, and two of the students came. She left a little early so that I could speak more frankly with the students, and they were willing to spend a fair amount of time with me, and were very enthusiastic about the program, mostly because of this wonderful professor (both of them came from Italy to study Italian Renaissance art with her). I was also given a tour by an administrator, and they made sure I spoke with the director of the program as well. By the time I got home, I had an email from one of the students I had spoken to encouraging me to ask any other questions I might have, and that evening I received an email from the director).

This was very different from when I sat in on a class at the IFA. I introduced myself to the prof, and she didn't introduce me to anyone or anyone to me (and, as I know from undergrad at NYU, students don't really talk to each other much, so I ended up just approaching a student after the class and walking with him to the subway, and got as much info as I could in those 5 mins). On another occasion, though, the administration set up a meeting for me with a student, and though it was helpful, they put me in touch with the Renaissance "student rep"--but that student is in Northern Renaissance, so he couldn't tell me much about working with the professors I'd be most interested in (after that meeting I did ask if there was an IFA student who was working with my potential advisors, and they said they could only give me the info of the student rep for my time period, which makes it the only school I visited that didn't introduce me to a student who could really tell me about potential advisors). Both students I spoke to (both the student rep and the guy I approached after the class) were excited about the program, but both complained that there are too many requirements and hoops to jump through (they seemed to think this was particular to NYU, and not to the phd in general), but of course the faculty is incredible and provides great opportunities (academic, career, etc). They said it's more competitive because of the funding issues, of course, and they complained that they did not understand why some students get funding while others don't (meaning that students who proved themselves academically in their first year didn't get funding the second year, or even got their funding taken away, and they said that it's really unpredictable and seems unfair). That worries me. Another valuable thing I learned from the IFA students (one student told me he wished he knew this before he went)--you have to interview to register for seminars. Since there are so many students, the professors that are most in demand hold interviews for their seminars, and there are reading lists just for the interview--so you have to prepare before you're even in the course. That makes it more competitive, too.

Regarding living in NY, it is a wonderful city, especially for studying art, and I really relish and take advantage of all the opportunities to experience art/culture in the city. On the other hand, it is difficult to live here, especially as a student, and especially as a student with little money and loans. I'm working this year, and it's hard enough to live on an entry-level salary. It's impossible to live in Manhattan (I'm not sure what rents are like across the board, but my friend is living in a very tiny two bedroom and paying $3,200, which is considered reasonable), so commuting won't go away, and commuting can be rough (my commute to work now should be about 30 minutes, but I have to leave an hour because there in inevitably a problem somewhere along the way, whether a switch problem or train congestion or dispatchers holding trains in stations, and it often takes the full hour or more). It's not a very friendly city, and I often feel like it's completely dominated by the finance world... I grew up here and went to undergrad here, so maybe I'm just sick of it, but if my life were different, I would definitely go to grad school in another city (I like cities, would just prefer a different one). Actually, a number of my friends from high school and undergrad are moving to other parts of the country as they find that NY is not so hospitable to young people trying to start out (unless you're involved in business or finance). As I mentioned in a previous post though, life is such right now that I'm not in a position where I can move.

If you're considering coming to NY, I would suggest really taking into account the cost of living here--Metrocard monthly passes just went up to $81, and if you visit the city, stop into a grocery store in Manhattan and check out the price of produce or even just chicken breasts. It's kind of astronomical.

That all said, I'm still in NY and it still hurts to know that I will most likely not go to the IFA, although I know Rutgers will be a much better emotional (and of course financial) experience for me. (definitely heart versus head for me too, stylefaxee, I had had my heart set on the IFA).

Travelingartmuse--if NYU took me, they should definitely take you. Best of luck, sounds like you really, really deserve it. I know a number of us received rejections from Princeton this week, so maybe your not having heard is good? Or maybe it means a wait-list type of situation? Have you tried calling to let them know you still haven't heard anything?

[lxs]

travelingartmuse - when/how did you hear about CUNY? it's the only program i haven't yet been rejected by, aside from one wait-list...

[travelingartmuse]

lxs & Renaissance08 - Thanks for the vote of confidence. If only our peers had a say in who gets in..... At this point, I am thinking that either they lost my application at Princeton because some work study undergrad misfiled it (I use to do this at my alma mater) or they just missed the deadline and will be sending out more rejects on Monday. The results page kept creeping with posts yesterday from the Wilson program and then the latest Architecture. My guess is they are going by program. Yes, I am the one who posted yesterday afternoon after I called and was told all decisions will be out before today, yeah right.

I applied to CUNY in September for Spring admission since they accept applicants by semester and not only by academic year. My notification came after Christmas. I was not hopeful though because the person I wanted to study with, I was told, took a Dean position and was not directly affiliated with the AH dept and probably would not be advising students. I had tried to contact her and use Museum connections to do so, but did not receive a reply. So much for that! I wish you luck there too.

As a side note, I had a great professor (Italian Ren/Baroque) who earned her PhD from Rutgers and loved it. I agree about NYC, you've been here long enough to know how hard it is and what its like. I have only been here for three years and if the reason I came here doesn't come to fruition, I am seriously considering packing up and going home to the Midwest. A place where people are friendly, or at the very least make eye contact and say 'pardon me' when they need you to move or bump into you on a crowded bus or train. The cost of living here IS structured for those financially grounded to afford it and we in the art and academic fields are not. I live in the city so I don't have the commute like you do, but I have thought about moving out to get away from it all, New York is a compromise on so many levels. It also has many rewards:) One's life is compromised enough while earning a PhD, I think to do it in New York one should be very committed to the idea, reality and environment specific to the location. My suggestion to all of you who are considering it is to get as much advice and opinions and ask yourself the tough questions.

[vangogh08]

To the Rutgers acceptee: They told you via email? I'm still waiting to hear. They are the final school I need to hear from. I thought I had a really good chance of getting in since I've conversed with my potential advisor and our interests overlap nicely. But, since I have yet to hear anything I guess I am to assume that I got rejected. Oh well, I probably can't afford to continue living in New England anyway.

[lxs]

hey traveling - thanks for the info on CUNY. did you have any better of an understanding of their financial aid than i did? when i visited, i spoke with the director who told me that "most students are funded" but was super vague about it. i can definitely sympathize with you, however... i have a MA as well, have published on my topic and worked alongside a major curator at a big museum on an exhibition related to my topic and have still been rejected across the board. i know it probably doesn't make you feel much better, but you aren't alone :|

[Renaissance08]

vangogh08,

I did receive an email... Have you checked the application status website? They also updated mine to say I've been "recommended for admission." It could be that they've made a couple of offers and are waiting to hear back from them before they make final admissions decisions (I haven't confirmed that I will accept the offer yet, and I'm sure others accepted at Rutgers area also waiting to hear from other schools as well before they make their decisions).

What did you think of the Rutgers program? Is it your first choice? How do you think it compares to other schools in the area?

[the17thscream]

Renaissance08 and travelingartmuse,

Thanks so much for the info on NYU IFA! I too was accepted without funding, and as an undergrad in NYC, I can't imagine living here owing $50,000 the first year alone...unfortunately like stylefaxee, my heart is saying one thing (NYU), and my head is saying Bryn Mawr (over BU, UIowa, and NYU). Hearing horror stories about INTERVIEWING FOR SEMINARS (god, I and thought the seminar application process at Columbia was annoying) definitely helps though, as does the ridiculous coldness of IFA whenever I contact them.

Bryn Mawr has really been so much nicer to me--I emailed both NYU and Bryn Mawr requesting more information, since finances and time commitments prevent me from visiting. NYU sent me some form letter "Dear firstname lastname, We really recommend that you visit rather than request materials like this." Bryn Mawr hooked me up with a current grad student (working with one of the professors I'm interested in and who received the same amount of funding (full tuition but that's it) as I), and we talked on the phone for 2 hours last night. The grad student was way helpful and told me that not a day goes by that a professor doesn't stop by her carrel to say hi or show her an article or give her a book they just read. The grad students at Bryn Mawr are supposedly way chill and non-competitive, usually socializing together and babysitting each others' cats and the like, and the relationships with the professors tend to be very close and collaborative. Apparently there are only 3 or 4 new grads per year, and about 35 total (TINY!). Even the undergrads sound pretty awesome in that they apparently have a lot of respect for TAs and are very active and interested in classes (majors dominate the classes run by TAs), though it is very rare to be in class with an undergrad as a grad student (something rather unusual as compared to Columbia, where the last two years of undergrad I've taken only graduate art history classes). Also, fundingwise, the grad student said that she has never heard of funding going down--only up (as hers did after the first year).

So maybe my heart is saying Bryn Mawr while my head is saying NYU, since I intuitively know I will be happy at Bryn Mawr, where there are not one but two profs that are perfect for me, and at least one or two courses per semester in my field (usual with German art), and the ability to take classes at 3 other universities nearby. But the name thing is still bothering me--it's hard enough to get jobs in academia and art history especially, and I don't want to handicap myself professionally by going from Columbia to less of a name. Stupid, stupid, I know. I think worrying about this is really just my way of procrastinating on my senior thesis...

[the17thscream]

Also, to people who are hearing a lot of bad news lately, DON'T GIVE UP! A friend of mine who is a grad at Columbia had to apply three years in a row, getting her MA (and engaged to a gorgeous and sweet Spanish man) in between. She is now working happily with the fabulous Cordula Grewe (even though she is taking undergraduate seminars since sometimes you have to do that at Columbia if you want extra facetime with profs). Anyway, she too didn't get in anywhere for THREE YEARS and is now in a top rated program with excellent funding. Also, those of you who have taken time to work and publish and get an MA will be infinitely better off in the postdoc job hunt, since you will have much much more work experience than those of us such as me, who are going in directly from undergrad and have never worked a full-time job except in the summer.

[dontknowwheretogo]

she is taking undergraduate seminars since sometimes you have to do that at Columbia if you want extra facetime with profs

[arthistorian]

to 17thscream--i don't think you need to worry about "the name thing" at all. bryn mawr is well known and well respected in art history & archaeology. a wonderful professor i know did her undergrad work there and loved it.

[the17thscream]

hi dontknowwheretogo,

I might not be the best person to answer your questions, since as an undergrad at Columbia, I've grown very disillusioned and disappointed with the grad program to which I am only tangentially related. The professors here, for the most part, are dynamic, accomplished, intelligent, etc., and they DO care about their students. But yes, there is a lot of competition, and from what I can tell, as much as they care, most profs have very little time for students (though this could be primarily undergrads rather than grads).

As an undergrad, I have taken only grad student lectures (not seminars) the past two years, and all of my undergrad seminars have included grad students. This is a common overlap between the last two years of undergrad and the first two years of grad school.

There are indeed lots of students hanging around in the doorways of their profs, particularly since (depending on the prof) it is hard to set up an appointment outside of office hours, (usually a single hour once or twice a week, first come, first serve) which is really annoying if you have a class at that time.

As for specific professors that are especially busy: Schama, Murray, and Ballon are especially busy professionally, younger profs like Grewe are going crazy trying to publish as much as possible, Joseph is paying his teaching dues as a new prof, but he doesn't seem to like students and is quite narcissistic (legitimately so--he's a rockstar), and I have yet to actually see Rosalind Krauss, even though I work with a lot of contemporary stuff and I've had to read her in just about every class I've taken. You will most likely have better luck with the Barnard affiliated professors (Higonnet, Deutsche, Kampen, Moxey), which is a more supportive environment in general, and some profs, like Rajchman are known to be fantastic advisors to individuals (in the MA program) but terrible teachers to classes (though admittedly easy graders).

Are Columbia grad students a little orphaned from their advisors? It depends on the grad student. My impression is that if you are proactive (take lots of classes with your advisors, show up to their office hours a lot, etc.) you get a good amount of facetime, but you do have to work for it. The advisors will not come to you.

Actually, the grad students strike me as being very unified and everyone seems to get along and socialize with each other. There does seem to be a grad community, though the PhD and MA people tend to be quite separate. It's a big program, but in a way it forces you to make friends with others, and I have yet to see a grad student treat another student in any way that is not kind and helpful. My TAs have all been either awesome or nonexistent. It really depends on the professor in terms of how much the TA grades papers/exams and how much they run discussion sections or even teach classes (many PhD candidates teach Art Humanities, a core intro to art history class all undergrads are required to take). And yes, there is a lot of competition for fellowships and funding, though no one seems to really talk about money very often.

Columbia is an excellent program overall...its grad students and faculty are it's great strength. I just think that bridging the two is where most people run into a problem.

Hope this helps, and feel free to PM me if you have any more questions. Again, I'm only an undergrad here.

[travelingartmuse]

lxs - Wow our paths are similar! To tell the truth, my experience at CUNY wasn't that great. I come from a private University where staff and admin care about their jobs and students. I did not get that feeling at all there and meeting with the Director was not informative. He was preoccupied the whole time (because the secretary double booked appointments) and other students were waiting outside his door. We didn't even discuss funding. You're in at one right? I'd say forget CUNY unless you really like the advisor there.

17th & dontknow - Basically, no one can tell you to whether to follow your heart or your head. NYU and Columbia, both being so large and somewhat aloof, will provide you with many opportunities post grad. Honestly, I'd weigh my decision based on 1. finances and 2. what do you want to do after with your PhD? If you are focused on teaching and want more of a choice post grad then go with one of these programs. The network and connectedness of the more prestigious programs is blatantly apparent when you look at faculty at these institutions they all seem to come from the same ranks. Where did they do work and who does University X hire? If you don't mind going to Wichita to teach (and there's nothing wrong with Wichita) then stick with the others. The quality of your life will definitely be better at Bryn Mawr. The opportunities for you in New York can be competitive but there are many.

Now, as I've mentioned in a previous post if you think you may want to do museum work (research, fellowships, curatorial) then definitely do one of these programs. You will have an advantage here in NYC (trust me, I work in one of these museums and know the inner network). Now, with all that said, take my opinion cautiously. I am 0-6, waiting on 2 and this is the third (and final year) that I will be applying. I may not be the most credible advisor on the subject. Having taken classes at Columbia I concur with the your analysis that the professors are very focused on their work. Sometimes, I feel that being there would have been no different educationally than anywhere else. And I want that kind of collaboration and collegiality. What Columbia (and the Ivies) does afford is a prestigious name that in the real world affords great opportunity. To leave you with a metaphor, if you wanted to get into politics, would you rather work on Capital Hill or in your local state or city government? What is the big picture goal?

[Renaissance08]

the17thscream--

I'll reiterate something I've already said, and that I've seen other people say...

Bryn Mawr is a wonderful school and has a really great reputation. My sister did her undergrad at Swarthmore, and people know of those three schools as being really academically rigorous (though maybe not as moneyed and fancy as the Ivies). But academically--really top notch. And for art history especially, I've heard that Bryn Mawr is really at the top. Anyone who knows anything about academia will know that. Those who don't know probably also won't know about the IFA's great reputation. It sounds like for you, Bryn Mawr is a win-win option, and it sounds like you're much more excited about it. It might also be a nice change from Columbia :-)

[the17thscream]

travelingartmuse and Renaissance08,

Thanks for the advice! I did realize recently that I really don't *need* to be the next Meyer Schapiro (yes, we are obsessed with him at Columbia)--I would be perfectly happy with a tenure track job at some university where I like the location and the people. Which is not to say that I don't have ambition--I am very, very ambitious...but at the same time, I'm in this discipline because I love it and it makes me happy, not because I want to be Rosalind Krauss 2.0 (again, obsessed with her at Columbia, even though most students in the art history dept haven't met her). I've gotten disillusioned with the NYC galleries, having done several internships throughout undergrad, so no galleries in my future, and I'm not especially keen on museum work--too much bureaucracy from what I've heard, not that there isn't tons in academica. But ultimately what turns my crank is writing, researching, and teaching (there is something really beautiful about interactions between people who truly care about a topic). So at this point (and I'm still waiting to hear from three schools as well as about funding at BU), I think I am definitely going with Bryn Mawr. (!!!)

[Ana20]

Is there anyone here from (or going to) the UK? Are UK PhDs valued in the US?

the17thscream--if your ideal advisor is at Bryn Mawr, that should tip the scale.

[Renaissance08]

traveling- you mentioned for museum work/work in nyc it's best to have an nyc degree. have you run into anyone yet with rutgers degrees out there? or, in your experience, is the museum world dominated by ifa/columbia people?

[travelingartmuse]

Renaissance08 - In my experience, as with all NYC things, is that it is a rat race. The rat closest to the cheese usually gets the crumbs. See what I'm saying? For example, those that do a voluntary internship at Museum X will be in the forefront for consideration for a highly prized paid Fellowship X to do their dissertation or work on a publication. You do the time, you MAY have a better advantage. To have the advantage to volunteer, you need to be local (and have both time and money). For me, I took two classes at Columbia, worked 35 hours a week at a different museum in an entry level position, and volunteered at Museum X. Basically, 7 days a week. That said, there are plenty of graduates from all over the world brought into Museum X as fellows, however, the largest percentage are from the local pool. My theory is because 1. they have better connections (location, location, location) Many people in Museum X have come from the IFA and Columbia so the relationship remains close. I've heard a saying that the road to Museum X is through the IFA. 2. it is easier because they are already here (no housing to consider, etc...) 3. it is a way to compensate them for their voluntary work and commitment