Seeking a Doctorate in History, with online undergrad

[James D.]

Hello all,

 

     Looking for a bit of insight. I've nearly matriculated to completion of my undergrad in History. I'm actively searching for a Master's program to complete online. The problem I'm running into is I get a sense by talking to a few PhD's that it'll be frowned upon (having an online degree) in the committee process. I face a hurdle though, as there are no resident Masters programs around me, and I can't just get up and move because I'm in the military...

 

     One professor said I should wait until I am discharged from the military, and upon returning to Texas I can pick up and take a Masters. This presents problems though. That's 4 1/2 years away meaning I'll have spent 4.5 years losing my ability to write papers. I may very well lose my drive and ambition too. I'll be 35 years old then, and obviously a Masters degree will likely get me a better salary out of the military, than a Bachelor's would (I'm seeking to instruct/teach at the HS level).

 

     Does anyone know of online graduates successfully applying to Doctorate programs? I sense the tides changing and more programs popping up online, but it's a scary process. Also, do any of you have any recommendations as far as online Masters programs in History?

[Concordia]

The Harvard Extension School won't let you do the whole degree online, but you can probably kill most of the prerequisites that way.  By the time you are ready to take the pro-seminar and start your real concentration, you may have more flexibility in your schedule.  

If you don't mind struggling to get attention from the right person, there are plenty of resources available.  Not that this is a perfect solution, but quite a few people with undergrad or master's degrees from the Extension School have gone on to doctoral programs.  

After considering that, I ended up doing a part-time MSt degree at the University of Cambridge instead.  I preferred Cambridge because the modules were much more focused as far as time commitments: four long weekends in Year 1, and four or five Saturdays in Year 2, which was more tolerable to me than an endless stream of Tuesday and Thursday nights.  You do have to be in England for most of those commitments, not that visiting Cambridge is a hardship.  

In Year 1, you have 3 weeks to go through your readings, and then 4 weeks after the module to get your 4,000-word essay done.   Year 2 is the dissertation, which can be done anywhere you can get the research and writing completed.  The program will work to find a supervisor for you, which may not be so simple at Harvard.  When the obvious candidate to supervise mine wasn't going to be arriving until my second year, for example, they shopped around as far as Oxford to find the right guy for me.  

Of course, there are fewer curriculum options at Cambridge.  Since I started in 2014, the program(me) has been anchored by one piece of the cohort doing British local history; the other group changes year by year.  I got lucky in that they chose US History to get the new format started.  The next alternate group will be doing Global History-- whatever that may mean.   If you have a topic in mind (and you will need to spell it out while applying), take a look.  

https://www.ice.cam.ac.uk/course/mst-history

 

Edited September 22, 2017 by Concordia

[Sigaba]

8 hours ago, James D. said:

Hello all,

     Looking for a bit of insight. I've nearly matriculated to completion of my undergrad in History. I'm actively searching for a Master's program to complete online. The problem I'm running into is I get a sense by talking to a few PhD's that it'll be frowned upon (having an online degree) in the committee process. I face a hurdle though, as there are no resident Masters programs around me, and I can't just get up and move because I'm in the military...

     One professor said I should wait until I am discharged from the military, and upon returning to Texas I can pick up and take a Masters. This presents problems though. That's 4 1/2 years away meaning I'll have spent 4.5 years losing my ability to write papers. I may very well lose my drive and ambition too. I'll be 35 years old then, and obviously a Masters degree will likely get me a better salary out of the military, than a Bachelor's would (I'm seeking to instruct/teach at the HS level).

     Does anyone know of online graduates successfully applying to Doctorate programs? I sense the tides changing and more programs popping up online, but it's a scary process. Also, do any of you have any recommendations as far as online Masters programs in History?

Ask @telkanuru's about his experiences--maybe after doing some searching.  He offers impeccable guidance.

FYI, there are some veterans on this BB--including at least one 18 series BTDT. If you can find them, they might have some insights IRT balancing one's armed service with one's educational goals.

More generally, there's a forum here for history that may have additional information that you can use. https://forum.thegradcafe.com/forum/38-history/

Best of luck.

[cowgirlsdontcry]

10 hours ago, James D. said:

     Looking for a bit of insight. I've nearly matriculated to completion of my undergrad in History. I'm actively searching for a Master's program to complete online. The problem I'm running into is I get a sense by talking to a few PhD's that it'll be frowned upon (having an online degree) in the committee process. I face a hurdle though, as there are no resident Masters programs around me, and I can't just get up and move because I'm in the military...

     One professor said I should wait until I am discharged from the military, and upon returning to Texas I can pick up and take a Masters. This presents problems though. That's 4 1/2 years away meaning I'll have spent 4.5 years losing my ability to write papers. I may very well lose my drive and ambition too. I'll be 35 years old then, and obviously a Masters degree will likely get me a better salary out of the military, than a Bachelor's would (I'm seeking to instruct/teach at the HS level).

     Does anyone know of online graduates successfully applying to Doctorate programs? I sense the tides changing and more programs popping up online, but it's a scary process. Also, do any of you have any recommendations as far as online Masters programs in History?

There are state universities all over this country that do online degrees (especially in the humanities) and do not differentiate between online and in person. You have a master's and that is all that counts. Be sure you attend a "real" university, not one that only exists in the cyberworld. My degree does not look any different from any other MA. It is from a state university and simply says Master of Arts in English. Most of my MA was done as online classes even though I worked as a GA on campus because a majority of the grad students in English (80 in fact) were scattered all over the world. I began a PhD program this fall and got full funding. I did have the benefit of being able to pop in a professor's office and ask a question or two, but they are usually available by email also.

Small state universities are doing a lot of online classes. Big state universities are doing some online classes, as well. Even the Ivy leagues are getting into the online class business. It literally costs nothing, except for the professor's salary and as such, is a big money maker. 

I haven't looked at many universities for online MAs, but did look at University of Louisiana at Monroe and University of Louisiana at Lafayette, because they had both  History and English MAs and before I chose to get a master's in English, I was looking at a dual MA in History and English. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by cowgirlsdontcry

[ExponentialDecay]

Is there a reason you can't apply for a doctorate out of undergrad?

[ltr317]

2 hours ago, ExponentialDecay said:

Is there a reason you can't apply for a doctorate out of undergrad?

He stated he has to serve his military commitment first. 

[ExponentialDecay]

19 minutes ago, ltr317 said:

He stated he has to serve his military commitment first. 

Is getting an online masters going to somehow waive his military commitment? He can't apply to PhDs once he's served it? I don't get it.

[ltr317]

13 minutes ago, ExponentialDecay said:

Is getting an online masters going to somehow waive his military commitment? He can't apply to PhDs once he's served it? I don't get it.

From what I understand in his posting, he is currently finishing undergrad and would like to continue with an online MA because there is no nearby in-person program.  It seems he wants to teach high school with the MA after military service?  You're right, he can skip the MA and apply for a PhD instead once he has served his duty.  What I'm confused about is why he mentioned the PhD when his goal is to teach high school? 

[dr. t]

Some points in no particular order:

• Although I hold my AB from Harvard Extension, I wouldn't recommend it for a AM if your goal is a humanities PhD for a variety of reasons.
• Yes, an online MA will be looked down on. But more importantly, the reasons why you would need an MA in the humanities go well beyond the simple credential. Consider not only what admissions committees will think of that online MA, but also if it will actually help you acquire the skills you need to be competitive in a PhD program.
• You don't need a PhD to teach high school. In fact, a PhD is entirely useless if you want to teach high school.
• If your interest wanes over the next five years, that's not a bad thing. As you get older, you change. That's a fact, not a failure or a missed opportunity.
• One of my friends started his PhD in Byzantine history at Harvard while in his mid-30s. I wouldn't worry about your age.

[James D.]

Hello all,

 

     A lot of responses, and much appreciated I might add. @telkanuru . I realize a PhD isn't required for High School. But I have a simple philosophy, which is if I've started and gone this far, why not attempt to go all the way. Also teaching High School will hopefully not be the end of my career, I would hopefully obtain a position at a university teaching History there. 

 

     @ExponentialDecay the reason I cannot attend a Masters in person is because of my location, which is dictated by the military (as I'm on Active Duty). They will move me around whenever they want, and wherever they want. It's known as "The needs of the Army". Obtaining a Masters in person doesn't void my contract at all, but there is the how and when factor. The closest program is four hours away from my duty station, and given you only get 30 days of leave (vacation time) per year, it would potentially take me a life time to do it in person utilizing leave. While I can wait until my discharge and apply from Undergrad to a PhD Program, why? Why would I waste 4.5 more years twiddling my thumbs and making zero progress toward my educational goals. I don't say this in a rude way, but just stating my point of view :)...

 

     @ltr317 there are plenty of factors that are driving me toward a PhD program. I won't lie, vanity is one of them. The overall reasons vary however, there are pay incentives to holding a PhD. For example a PhD, in the government gains you access to a lot of opportunities I would like to explore (I was already a civil servant a while back). It's one of those things I want to strive for. As it pertains to myself, I feel like stopping at a Masters is settling, and why settle for less right?

[dr. t]

6 minutes ago, James D. said:

But I have a simple philosophy, which is if I've started and gone this far, why not attempt to go all the way. Also teaching High School will hopefully not be the end of my career, I would hopefully obtain a position at a university teaching History there. 

Because "all the way" is an MA in Education, if you want to teach high school. HS isn't some sort of intermediate step. 

[James D.]

@telkanuru You are definitely right. Many make a career out of High School, particularly in Texas (where I want to teach), they offer outstanding benefits in most counties. I've never taught High School however, History was my favorite class and the teacher (a retired Major from the Army) is my driving purpose for my desire to teach, as I would like to impact any adolescents the way he impacted me. I may enjoy instructing but dislike the atmosphere however, which is why I leave the door open for Colleges/Universities. They also offer PhD's in Education if I'm not mistaken, which would be the terminal.

 

A PhD, albeit wasted in HS does afford you higher pay in some states. The highest paid teacher in Wisconsin is the sister of one of my prior military instructors, she doesn't have anymore duties or responsibilities than the next person, but she makes well over $100k because of how the pay tables are written; they are based on your formal education. But no I didn't mean to deem it as some intermediate step.

[dr. t]

PhDs in education are more if you're interested in school administration. And the pay benefits of, say, a history PhD would not make up for the earnings lost during the degree. But make no mistake: although college professors do teach, their primary responsibility is research, across the board. That's what you need to enjoy above all else if you want to pursue that course.

[rising_star]

16 minutes ago, telkanuru said:

 But make no mistake: although college professors do teach, their primary responsibility is research, across the board. That's what you need to enjoy above all else if you want to pursue that course.

This isn't entirely true. Professors at a community college teaching a 5/5 aren't expected to do much (if any at all) research. Same for many of the smaller (aka, directional) state universities. Where the teaching load is higher, the emphasis on research is lower. Consequently, it's not really fair to say that you have to enjoy doing research to be a professor as a universal truth. It's definitely true of R1s, R2s, and most liberal arts colleges* but it really isn't true everywhere. If the OP is comfortable with a FT job with a higher teaching load, they could do just fine without having research as their primary responsibility.

 

*With the caveat that at many LACs, your teaching evaluations and performance are what will get you tenure. Some research is needed but not a lot. But if you don't like teaching 3 courses a semester and working with undergrads intimately and you aren't good at it, you won't get tenure even with a book published.

[James D.]

@telkanuru The earnings are a factor I will have to consider, but I will not have paid anything for the BA and MA. That is all funded by the military as a trade off for past service. Regarding research, it has been one of the fun things about pursuing all of this. In fact it was the reason I started all this. I started figuring out my own ancestry, learning their lives (which is pretty insane, as two of them were legislatures before and during the Civil War). This has only broadened as I begin to search out other individuals history. I have the urge to research, I definitely don't get bored of it.

[ltr317]

2 hours ago, James D. said:

 @ltr317 there are plenty of factors that are driving me toward a PhD program. I won't lie, vanity is one of them. The overall reasons vary however, there are pay incentives to holding a PhD. For example a PhD, in the government gains you access to a lot of opportunities I would like to explore (I was already a civil servant a while back). It's one of those things I want to strive for. As it pertains to myself, I feel like stopping at a Masters is settling, and why settle for less right?

Vanity should not be a factor; it should not even be in the equation.  One can be proud of earning a PhD because it is a difficult endeavor, but not because it's for bragging rights.  None of my history professors flaunt their PhD as some sort of elitist attainment.  Love of learning history should be the prime consideration in pursuit of a PhD.   You should be aware that the current college job market for a history PhD is pretty dismal, and if one wants employment in government, a history degree should be fairly relevant to the desired position.  I have an MPA and worked in various government and non-profit positions because the degree is considered more flexible.  So, I caution you to think more deeply why you want a PhD, and if that's your final determination, then go for it.  It's not a bed of roses though. 

[ExponentialDecay]

@James D.

I got the bit about why you can't attend an in-person master's the first time, thank you. My question is, I repeat: why do you need a master's at all? You state that your end goal is a PhD (you also state elsewhere that your end goal is to teach highschool, so if you could clarify which of these very different aspirations you are actually aiming for, that would be great!). You don't need a master's to pursue a PhD. You can apply to the PhD out of undergrad, or with just the undergrad if you for whatever reason that I don't need to know can't apply right afterwards. So why do you need the master's?

[James D.]

@ExponentialDecay Good morning,

 

     The problem with having not taught yet is you don't know if that will be your end state. I need to obtain a Master's to make me more competitive in the Job Market. Having a Master's degree will ensure I can get a teaching position as long as one is opened, as compared to 30 people applying with a Bachelor's. Plus the Master's is free atm, if I wait until after the military I will be paying for it.

 

@ltr317 I don't expect it will be a walk in the park. But I will tell you, after 13 years in the military... I've had days that are walks in hell... you learn to take it all in stride. I believe I'm ready for the stress factor, and I enjoy the research factor. As I said vanity is only part, a small part. I had an aunt and grandmother that attended Rice University, a woman attending a University and holding a Bachelors in the 50's is pretty astounding I might add. No one in my family held anything higher though, so I would like to be the first PhD in my family. As far as flaunting it, that really isn't me. 

[rising_star]

This entire thread has taken a turn toward the bizarre. @James D. originally asked if there were people with online degrees who have been successful getting into PhD programs and now everyone is questioning their motives and reasons for doing a PhD and trying to talk them out of even trying. Why? What incentive do you all have to keep this one person on the internet from pursuing graduate study in an area he's interested in which may--in four years--lead him to enter a PhD program? @James D. didn't say he wants to apply for a PhD right now, but wants to do things which might prepare him to apply for one four years from now (AKA, the length of a "typical" bachelor's degree). I can't say that I'm used to this level of trying to talk someone out of something, even when it comes to posts in response to current college undergrads who have only taken ais the  few history courses.

So, to answer the original question, it's definitely possible @James D.! Are there any opportunities for you to work with historical materials in your current military job? If so, doing that may strengthen your application as much as or more than doing an online master's. If you are to go the online master's route, I'd stick with schools with a known and strong brick-and-mortar presence, and ideally those who won't note that your degree is earned online. I'm less familiar with specifics for history but I know that Arizona State and Penn State have big online programs. There are also other schools where you may be able to get a master's in humanities or liberal arts online or in a low-residency format, like Regis University or Antioch New England. Honestly, I would just google around for universities and take a look at all of their online offerings to see if there's anything that would work for you. 

If you're really thinking about teaching high school while in or after the military, it's probably worth it to go ahead and get a teaching credential while the military is paying for it. This will entail taking some education courses but you could focus on secondary school history/social science, which would also mean upper-level undergrad and some grad courses in that area. Most M.Ed. programs require an area of concentration, so you'd get the teaching experience plus the content knowledge. That said, it is likely harder to find one of those online. If you just want to go the teaching certificate route (for now), you may be able to find the courses you need through a community college. 

I hope this helps! I'm not going to question your motives or desires because anyone who has served for 13 years in the military deserves our respect. Perhaps read the story of the PhD applicant who is going from prison to NYU as inspiration? Not because your cases are similar but because it shows a remarkable ability to triumph over numerous obstacles (including not having access to the internet) to pursue one's ultimate desires. Good luck! Keep up posted on your progress!

[ltr317]

1 hour ago, James D. said:

 

@ltr317 I don't expect it will be a walk in the park. But I will tell you, after 13 years in the military... I've had days that are walks in hell... you learn to take it all in stride. I believe I'm ready for the stress factor, and I enjoy the research factor. As I said vanity is only part, a small part. I had an aunt and grandmother that attended Rice University, a woman attending a University and holding a Bachelors in the 50's is pretty astounding I might add. No one in my family held anything higher though, so I would like to be the first PhD in my family. As far as flaunting it, that really isn't me. 

In that case, the best of luck!  Make yourself and your family proud. 

[James D.]

     @rising_star Thank you for the support! In Texas you need either the standard track or something called "Alternative Certification". For anyone who has served in the military there is a program called Troops to Teachers, managed by the Dept. of the Navy who actually pays for this, and will try to situate you into a teaching job. I was actually discussing with my wife the other day, about volunteering at the local museum to gain some more experience in the field, and strengthen the application. I've also been looking into volunteering at the local high school to attempt to get a little bit of experience in that field.

 

     There is a Army job in the historical field but it's impossible to get... I think the Army was great at first and has definitely shaped me, but it really is a drag once your interest go above the big guns and trucks haha...

[dr. t]

3 hours ago, rising_star said:

now everyone is questioning their motives and reasons for doing a PhD and trying to talk them out of even trying. Why? What incentive do you all have to keep this one person on the internet from pursuing graduate study in an area he's interested in which may--in four years--lead him to enter a PhD program?

...There's a pretty clear thread of conversation going on here which is neither convoluted to follow nor tangential to the initial post. Everyone should question whether a PhD is actually the right vehicle to achieve their goals, and the process of nailing down precisely why it is so (which we see above) can only serve to strengthen any eventual application.

[rising_star]

3 hours ago, telkanuru said:

...There's a pretty clear thread of conversation going on here which is neither convoluted to follow nor tangential to the initial post. Everyone should question whether a PhD is actually the right vehicle to achieve their goals, and the process of nailing down precisely why it is so (which we see above) can only serve to strengthen any eventual application.

I don't disagree with you about that. But given what the original question was (which was about whether one could study online and later do a PhD), I don't understand why the conversation so quickly pivoted to questioning the OP's goals and motives to pursue something 4+ years from now. Do you, @telkanuru, ask such questions of literally every person on here who says they might want to go to graduate school? Not in my experience. Yes, there's the usual "the job market is bad" but this took a different tone than that and seemed more like a bunch of people wanting to "school" the OP, rather than actually answer their question.

[dr. t]

2 hours ago, rising_star said:

Do you, @telkanuru, ask such questions of literally every person on here who says they might want to go to graduate school? Not in my experience.

Honestly? I try to. I remember quite a few kerfuffles on this very forum from me doing so, as well.

It didn't seem to me like any of the advice here wasn't well meant.