Think long and hard about taking on so much debt

[hedong123]

Hello everyone,

I lurked these posts around the years 2012-2015 on an almost daily basis. I thought it appropriate that I return to share my story, the decisions that I made and my future goals. My hope is that this post helps at least one person out there.

I graduated from a small in-state university in 2006 with a major in finance. I quickly landed a job at a reputable financial services corporation in Maryland (this was pre-financial crisis). My salary was a paltry 35k per year. After 19 months in corporate hell I quit and moved to Korea to teach ESL in South Korea. I ended up staying there for about four years and left fluent in the language. I then spent some time travel writing in Cambodia and Myanmar. 

Upon returning to the US my dream was to eventually get a job at a non-profit in a developing country in SE Asia (actually I still hope to do this someday). The economy was still pretty poor at this point in time and I knew I'd need a solid graduate degree to have a shot at landing a job at any reputable NGO abroad. For money I got a job on the docks with my family. I spent all of my free time studying for the GRE exam and polishing my fluent Korean skills. 

During my first application season I got accepted to SFS and SAIS but with no aid. I decided to hold out and try again the following year. My best offer eventually came from my dream school - SAIS. They offered 8k per semester and I was told I'd get at least that amount the second year, so let's call it 32k. At that point I had a huge decision to make. My job at the waterfront was going very well (dockworkers do well when the economy is picking up). I had a solid middle-class income and I was leaning towards giving it up to pursue a MA at SAIS and rack up, at a minimum, 60k in student loan debt.

I decided against going to SAIS and there's a simple reason why:  

The FI/RE movement.

FI/RE stands for Financial Independence/Retire Early. It's a growing subculture of millennials who don't want to follow the typical path of working until age 65-70.  They maximize income and savings and reject overconsumption. There are plenty of resources on this subject, such as Mr. Money Mustache, JH Collins, The Power of Thrift, and Financial Independence on Reddit. 

I remember meeting people at SAIS who were graduating with 120k in student loan debt. I read the threads on thegradcafe of people who are doing the same. Do you people realize that most of these jobs pay shit?  You can do better as an honest hardworking plumber. Taking on so much debt (even 50k is absurd in my opinion) is financially crippling. With the salary you can expect to earn after graduating from most of these programs, and the fact that you're likely going to be paying high rent to live in DC or any other US city where IR/Policy jobs are located, you are almost guaranteeing that you're going to be a slave to your bills.  You're likely never going to get ahead (unless you're some kind of rich trust fund kid, of course).

Many in the FI/RE community are just normal workers who earn a normal salary. A guy named Jason Fieber (his blog is called MrFreeat33 - google it) never earned more than like 70k per year and was able to retire early after like 6 years working in the auto industry. He retired on the low-end, saving enough to generate a passive income of roughly $1200 per month (enough that he can live in Thailand and not have to worry about money). Obviously the more you earn, the easier all of this is.  But my point is that it's a possibility for almost anyone who isn't crippled with student loan debt.

I'm not going to get into the method that all of these people are using to achieve financial independence in their 30s or 40s but it's totally possible (see the Trinity Study and blogs mentioned above). My point in posting this is to hopefully prevent just one person from making a foolish decision to take out six figures in student loan debt for a job that pays 60k. You're likely better off just remaining at your current job, maxing out your 401k each year, figuring out ways to reduce every possible expense and pursing financial independence.

Once you're financially independent you can then pursue whatever dreams you have. Which is EXACTLY what I'm going to do. I've calculated that upon my 40th birthday, I'll no longer have to worry about money. At that point I can apply to any graduate program that I want. Since money isn't going to be a concern, the program's ranking won't be one either.  I'd only enroll if I get a full ride and with no money concerns, there would be no stress in the process.  My other idea is to simply living abroad. One of the best features of financial independence is geographic arbitrage. Earn the money in a high paying country like the US, then live off it in a much cheaper country like Thailand. I could also supplement it by teaching ESL in a number of Asian countries that I love!

Oh, and if you're one of the lucky few who is getting a full ride, totally go for it!  FI/RE will definitely be an option for you if you want it to be.  This post is meant for people considering taking on a HUGE student loan obligation.

Sorry for any poor grammar, I'm just a lowly dockworker

[Rayzaa]

I've seen a slew of posts to the same effect as yours and feel morally compelled to intervene and provide my thoughts, lest some people 'on the fence' be swayed by them into living a life of dissatisfaction and be perpetually troubled by the chilling question, 'what if?'. I disagree strongly with these clickbait posts which serve not to educate or edify but instead only to disillusion people. To be frank, with all due respect,  your comment reeks of a flawed and closed-minded prioritisation of financial security over passion. In so doing, you overlook the very reason we are pursuing public policy/IR in the first place, as opposed to medicine or investment banking. Moreover, you neglect the fact that $60k is only a base salary and those who work hard will likely within the next decade or two reach the $100k+ mark. Your argument may resonate with some people - especially from developing low-income countries - but should definitely not serve as a ground for someone to summarily give up on their hopes and dreams, as cheesy as that sounds. 

Yes, you may be far more financially secure throughout your 20s and 30s if you work as an 'honest plumber' or 'lowly dockworker'. And yes, the pay after graduation for public policy and international affairs jobs is less than ideal. But if you look at the issue from the other side of the coin, you'll realise that you're effectively wasting your best 20 years on something that does not provide you with spiritual content. I don't know about you, but to me that's scary. Some people aspire to be the change they want to see. We are okay and in fact perfectly content to live in less-than-ideal situations if that permits us to effect change in a world which is so worryingly bleak. We are fortunate enough to profit from modern technologies and have access to the insights of the best thinkers in the world. Without detracting from the indispensability of plumbers and dockworkers in society, we are blessed with such vast opportunities that it is our imperative to make use of them to make the world a better place.

As such, we are not so much concerned with financial security as we are with a desire to be able to say with conviction when we are old and grey and full of sleep that 'I have lived my life to its fullest'. It is doing what we love, not what makes us feel secure, that drives us. I can say with certainty that I would be far happier helping create a reliable source of clean water for Nepalese communities or empowering Pakistani women, than I would be working as a dockworker for 20 years with countless hours of tough physical labour. By the time you reach 40, you may have a husband/wife and children to care for and simply cannot afford to go to school and work overseas in developing countries. You may develop back pains or cancer or Parkinson's which inhibits you from doing what you want. Life catches up to you fast, dude. Although you purport to have an ostensibly good understanding of finances, you fail to evince any understanding or appreciation of life itself. 

Notwithstanding, the rosy picture that I paint is inevitably subject to some caveats. Some people, after graduating from these top schools, do indeed struggle to find jobs. They might be forced to work in the private sector in order to repay their debts, or might be stuck in a boring desk job. They might be forced to live in a crammed apartment with cold water showers and noisy roommates. Expectation and reality are, after all, dichotomous constructs. However, the majority do go on to do something meaningful and impactful. It is a risk, but it is necessarily a risk that the ambitious must take. No one ever made a difference by being the same.

So I think the message we should take from this post is not the disillusionment and unabashed bias of the writer, but rather the disjointed message to proceed with caution before taking on a $100k debt. This is a huge sum, and should not be hastily dismissed. But if you work at least 5-8 years in a good job beforehand then it's definitely repayable if you get a decent job afterwards. Where I live, it's not uncommon to live an hour away from the city centre in order to save thousands of dollars in rent. Be fiscally responsible, but don't be overly protective like the writer. 

The human mind is notoriously fickle, so please think carefully before making a decision. Read books. Talk with people in the field. Know that the life of a policy maker is not all sunshine and rainbows. It's bloody hard work. But most importantly, know that this is really what you want to do. And if it truly is, then you will make the most of the opportunity and will unfailingly do what you set out to achieve. Those with the greatest histories and motivations are the ones who invariably climb up the ladder and end up the highest irrespective of their background, as Kofi Annan and Malala demonstrate. And the world needs exactly these people in the current times of turbulence. 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Rayzaa

[hedong123]

Thanks Rayzaa for the long and thoughtful response.  You made some great points.

I must disagree though.  In your argument you're making the implication that taking a HUGE student loan burden is the only way to achieve ones hopes and dreams. What I'm saying is that taking on such a HUGE debt burden is an extremely foolish way to pursue these dreams.  Look at history and think of the many who have changed the world for the better (as many of us here hope to do), how many of them were able to do so without a six figure student loan burden?  MANY

I think we're on the same page regarding pursing ones goals and having a fulfilling journey.  Being able to not only get but, more importantly, give is why most of us are here. On a separate note, an honest plumber can achieve an equal to or greater level of spiritual content as someone creating a source of clean water for Nepalese communities in the form of creating jobs for others and allowing them to provide for their families here in the US and helping those in need or affected in disaster areas. (Yes, not only you white collar types can make a difference  )

But you make a great point, there are places in the world where people like us are needed to help to improve the lives of others.  I was recently in Myanmar and was saddened to see that the locals drank straight from the filthy river that they bathed in and god knows what kind of runoff was contained in there.  What I'm suggesting is that there's another way to create a fulfilling life for yourself, in which you can devote your career to helping these people and solving these issues. A six figure student loan burden is the worst way to get there IMO. Why not get more real world work experience and reapply when ad-coms feel that you'll have so much to offer that they are willing to educate you for free?  Or, why not consider my method and achieve a level of financial independence first and then devote yourself to a calling such as this? 

You mention in your post about living an hour away from your job. So in order to save the world (and to be able to afford it) you must be willing to spend two hours commuting per day?  That's ten hours per day and 500 hours per year. A significant amount of time that one could be using to actually make a difference... 

Corporations in this country love to prey on our passions. Look at how many people were willing to agree to subprime mortgages back before the financial crisis ten years ago. The SAME kind of thing is happening now with the student loan crisis. Banks and universities love to let you think you can afford to study there. They know that we can be so passionate about wanting to change the world that we'll agree to such absurd levels of debt to take us there. Quite frankly, I have a significant amount of money in the US Stock Market Index and the financial sector makes up a large portion of that. So indirectly, I'm actually benefiting from so many people willing to sign up for such foolish loans. However, it's wrong and I sincerely hope to get through to someone.

In your post you basically imply that age 40 is too old (WHAT?) and you may get Parkinsons so live it up now and take on massive debt. This is horrible advice. In my 40s, I'll actually be able to afford to have children. Being financially independent, I'll actually be able to spend as much time as I want with them because I won't be working 50 hours a week at some cubicle job an hour away as I tell everyone how great I am for saving the world. 

To everyone, please listen carefully.  You can make a wonderful impact on this planet. There are several paths to get there and the WORST way is to take on massive student loan debt. You may think that this (and sucking up to phony DC types at happy hours) is the only way to go but it's NOT. Most importantly, get experience in a field that interests you (volunteer during nights and weekends if you have to). If a graduate degree is necessary, put together a competitive application package and attend a program that gives you a free ride or at least a minimum amount of student loan debt. DO NOT pay sticker price for these programs. Bragging about how great your school is and posting about it on Facebook is only fun for a little while. That joy quickly wears off and you're stuck for YEARS paying massive debt with interest.

[lutherblissett]

From what I read of your original post, it seemed that you wanted to live abroad and have a graduate degree more than you want to become a change-maker. I've met people that have tried to vigorously defend their life decisions when no one is questioning their right to make said choices:

• "You know, I got accepted to Cornell! But I decided to go to SUNY Binghampton because it was cheaper for me." I hadn't even asked her about why she decided to go there, only where Binghampton was because I was from the West Coast.
• "I could have gone to an elite American university, but I decided to go to a Turkish university for the experience." We were all counselors in a summer camp, and this guy was one of two counselors who had not gone to a brand name American university. No one had made him feel inferior about his university choice or his intelligence.

You seem to draw an arbitrary line between yourself and "white collar types" in terms of making a difference. Of course, anyone can make a difference. As Rayzaa pointed out, Malala Yousafzai is now a Nobel Peace Prize winner due to her immense motivation to bring gender equality to Pakistan. Of course, she was only fourteen years old and sans grad degree when she made waves around the world. No one here is trying to belittle you for the choices you are making. And yet, you deny yourself a seat at this table in order to denigrate people, albeit subtly.

• "Do you people realize that most of these jobs pay shit?  You can do better as an honest hardworking plumber."
• "So in order to save the world (and to be able to afford it) you must be willing to spend two hours commuting per day?  That's ten hours per day and 500 hours per year. A significant amount of time that one could be using to actually make a difference..."
• "I won't be working 50 hours a week at some cubicle job an hour away as I tell everyone how great I am for saving the world."

Let me respond to some of your comments, which I found quite thoughtless.

• "I was recently in Myanmar and was saddened to see that the locals drank straight from the filthy river that they bathed in and god knows what kind of runoff was contained in there.  What I'm suggesting is that there's another way to create a fulfilling life for yourself, in which you can devote your career to helping these people and solving these issues." Well, the reality is that someone else is making positive change for people in Myanmar, not you. They may not even have a grad degree or student debt. The first sentence of this comment is equivalent to "praying for help" posts on Facebook that I dislike. Being saddened about this is not the equivalent to taking action on this issue.
• "Why not get more real world work experience and reapply when ad-coms feel that you'll have so much to offer that they are willing to educate you for free?" If you look at Harvard Kennedy School's fellowship application, most of them require you to have demonstrated leadership skills and dedication to public service. I'm not sure that being a plumber for 20+ years is the best way to go about that.
• "A significant amount of time that one could be using to actually make a difference..." The amount of commute time spent on the DC metro during my two internships was indeed great, but I used it to read several books on current news and hot-button topics in society. It was productive time. Furthermore, you can reframe this as a sacrifice or price paid in order to have the dream career that Rayzaa and others want. There are higher pursuits than that of money.
• "I won't be working 50 hours a week at some cubicle job an hour away as I tell everyone how great I am for saving the world." I found this truly insulting because my parents worked overtime and extra hours at their jobs in order to afford me debt-free university. It wasn't a necessity for them but rather a choice born out of love. There are reasons other than student debt that a person might opt to work extra hours. That extra ten hours of work per week could be helping people around the world. Furthermore, if you end up working for a non-profit, you might very well be that same person working fifty hours a week because the project is due in a week and people's lives depend on it being done. Also, given that you previously said that you wanted to work in a Southeast Asian nation, perhaps you'd still want your children to be educated in the States rather than, let's say, Thailand if you don't want to send them to an American-style school for children of diplomats until they absorb the language of the host country. That's an expensive proposition there.
• "(and sucking up to phony DC types at happy hours)" There are definitely phony types everywhere you go. They're not limited to DC, and you might even find some in Southeast Asia. Dealing with phonies is something that happens in life, much to Holden Caulfield's disdain. But I am amused that you think that this is an intrinsic facet of people who work in DC. Stereotype much?
• "Bragging about how great your school is ... That joy quickly wears off" I don't doubt that some people apply to and hope to be accepted to these schools for the name brand and prestige, but others will attend them because that school and its connections are what will allow them to quickly scale into a job and career that they desire. The people who go into these top programs are not children showing off flashy toys. You belittle everyone who is in the latter category by saying this.

For potential students who are very concerned about student debt, if you are a high-achieving student, look into Princeton's Woodrow Wilson School program for a school that funds all its students. As in: every MPA graduate exits that school with zero student debt. Yale Jackson Institute has a generous endowment from what I hear (and at least for this 2017-18 application cycle, they waived the application fee if you applied before December 1). If you're an exceptional student then Harvard Kennedy School has a number of merit scholarships you have to apply for. There are also excellent external funding sources that you can retrieve from Harvard Kennedy School's Student Financial Service database, and it is publicly accessible. You might have to hustle for money, but the worthwhile things in life are the ones we have to work for.

Overall, I find this post to be attempting to justify a certain life path and payoff matrix to people who have already chosen a different path and have different payoff matrices. Your note on student debt is sound, and I will add to that by saying that student debt should not exceed 150% of starting salary. People should do research before they enter possible debt and student loans. However, to say that all people who have made this choice are "not thinking clearly" insults hundreds of students and graduates who have already opted to do so because they have different values than you. It is kind of you to suggest a different career path, but in the future, I recommend that you carefully consider how you come across as a person. Condescension isn't a good look on anyone.

[ExponentialDecay]

My own message to people who are considering doing FIRE because these programs are expensive, from the heart: it's not about the money, and I don't mean it in a frou-frou follow your dreams kind of way. I've been an expat all my adult life, and the isolation, lack of community, and uncertainty is not fun. Money is part of it, but it pales in comparison to feeling like you don't belong and like these people aren't your people. It's been a bit of a torturous road for me, but in the econdev community I feel at home. This isn't meant to be an exoneration of the many flaws that OP identifies with this work: the field is highly competitive, underpaid, my organization is exploitative, my prospects are poor, my lifestyle is not conducive to sustaining romantic relationships or most friendships, and I don't feel more suited to this work than I would be to, say, academia or mopping the floors; but I like where I am. For me and I think for everyone else, it's not so easy as a choice between passion and money. Part of it is having the institutional platform to do the kind of work you want/are able to do, part of it is being surrounded by people who get you, part of it is culture and lifestyle. Part of it is falling into it. Part of it is then choosing to keep showing up. I'm passionate about many other things and I could be making the same money I'm making doing many other things. But I'm here.

I'm happy that OP found something they like (or is at least pretending to). I will admit that I bristle at them advertising what is essentially a cult. Like, there is limiting refined carbs in your diet, and there is paleo. There is being pro-market and there is libertarianism. There is being frugal and then there is writing blog posts about how to get enough calories and save on your grocery bill by putting olive oil on everything. These things seem less about living life and more about obtaining an illusion of control or filling up the emptiness inside of you with busywork. And, who knows, maybe that's what I'm doing. Economics is the cult of cults. I do think that, whilst taking a shit ton of debt for these programs is stupid, it's no less stupid to waste years of your life denying yourself the chance to try something you want to do. I've had difficulty getting over many of the same considerations OP puts forward, but in the end I got the right credentials/skills/network for this field relatively early, certainly compared to people who come here after 10 years doing something else. For some of these people, the transition is smooth. For most, they leave their lucrative doctor/lawyer/engineer/finance jobs and start comparatively or completely over. I don't know why they do it, they don't seem to have planned their lives like this, but they do. In the end, there's no point in being a slave to your mind/body/ambition/checkbook. Just try to do the best you can with what you've got.

[lutherblissett]

18 hours ago, ExponentialDecay said:

Part of it is having the institutional platform to do the kind of work you want/are able to do, part of it is being surrounded by people who get you, part of it is culture and lifestyle. Part of it is falling into it. Part of it is then choosing to keep showing up. I'm passionate about many other things and I could be making the same money I'm making doing many other things. But I'm here.

Like, there is limiting refined carbs in your diet, and there is paleo. There is being pro-market and there is libertarianism. There is being frugal and then there is writing blog posts about how to get enough calories and save on your grocery bill by putting olive oil on everything. These things seem less about living life and more about obtaining an illusion of control or filling up the emptiness inside of you with busywork. And, who knows, maybe that's what I'm doing. Economics is the cult of cults. I do think that, whilst taking a shit ton of debt for these programs is stupid, it's no less stupid to waste years of your life denying yourself the chance to try something you want to do.

In the end, there's no point in being a slave to your mind/body/ambition/checkbook. Just try to do the best you can with what you've got.

 

This post is poetry about careerism and life. In other words, I love it. I was particularly reminded by one of my favorite speeches: David Foster Wallace's commencement speech to Kenyon College Class of 2005 aka "This is Water." He says:

In the day-to-day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And an outstanding reason for choosing some sort of God or spiritual-type thing to worship ... is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive. If you worship money and things - if they are where you tap real meaning in life - then you will never have enough. Never feel you have enough. It's the truth. Worship your own body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly, and when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally plant you. ... Worship power - you will feel weak and afraid, and you will need ever more power over others to keep the fear at bay. Worship your intellect, being seen as smart - you will end up feeling stupid, a fraud, always on the verge of being found out. And so on.

[Revolutionary]

^regarding the speech; can't one worship the pursuit of knowledge? Yearning to know more, striving to keep uncovering the mysteries of life and the universe, and all that jazz?

Because that may be the only thing we may be left with if all else seems superficial or not worthy to be "worshipped".....

Edited November 28, 2017 by Revolutionary

[ExponentialDecay]

@Revolutionary

Striving to learn more is a great goal, but basing your self-worth on how good you are at it I don't recommend, from personal experience. It's a one-way ticket to suicidal depression and putting your life on hold until your PI/an R1 tenure line/the Nobel committee tells you you are just as worthy of breathing as everyone else. 

@lutherblissett thanks bae ily. You make me feel better about my life choices.

[alb319]

Hi guys - I was just accepted early to Columbia SIPA's MPA in Environmental Science and Policy program. It's my dream program but thinking about debt and seeing this thread has made me extremely anxious! I was awarded a fellowship, but I would still probably have to take out $85K in loans. For certain reasons, my parents (God bless them) have offered to pay off whatever debt I have after 6 years. But is this all worth it?? I am wondering if I should apply to other programs and see if I can go somewhere else for less? The only issue is that I have to accept Columbia's offer by February, and I'm not sure when other decisions would come out?  Any advice would be much appreciated!

[hedong123]

Hi Alb319!

That's a very generous offer from your parents. The only thing I can tell you is to look carefully at the salaries that graduates of your program are earning. Consider your future living expenses, current debt (if any), and your long-term goals. In your situation, you'd only be screwed for at a maximum of six years.  This is unlike many on here who are screwed either directly or indirectly by this massive student loan burden for a decade or even decades. I'd also think carefully about hitting your parents up for that kind of money. You might still owe 50-60k at that point and hopefully it wouldn't affect your parent's retirement plans and be too much of a burden on them.

Without the parental support, I'd say hell no to this.  However, if you're comfortable taking money from your parents, and feel that it won't hurt their own plans, then I'd probably tell you to go for it. During those first six years of work, I strongly urge you to put as much as you can into a 401(k) plan and traditional IRA plan. Even if the FI/RE lifestyle that I describe above isn't for you, being forced to work until your late 60s isn't a good situation for anyone. 

Finally, don't think that an expensive master's program is the only way to achieve greatness in life. You could also consider reapplying with a stronger application package (and shoot for a better fellowship) or apply to other programs that interest you and see what they have to offer in terms of funding. 

With whatever you choose, good luck to you!

[lutherblissett]

@alb319 Let's do the mathematics to calculate the necessary starting salary for someone with $83k of debt. You can expect to pay compounded APR on any debt that you incur, and that will range from 10-20% of the total amount. Let's go with 20% as a conservative estimate. That means that upon graduation, your total debt will be $99,600. With the 150% rule, that means your starting salary must be approximately 2/3 (or 67%) of your total debt load. That means your starting salary needs to be $66,400 or more. That is the most advice I am comfortable with dispensing without having some concrete numbers such as interest rates or repayment expectancy, but I will say that you do have a lucky break in the form of your parents' willingness to pay off the remaining amount in six years. There are too many variables to sufficiently calculate what amount of the debt load will be remaining. However, the people you should be talking to about your potential arrangement are your parents, not us.

@ExponentialDecay I see you all over this forum, and you usually have wise words for everyone! Your comment made me really happy.

@Revolutionary There is a difference between striving towards something and worshiping it. Someone who strives for knowledge is humbled by the sheer magnitude of everything that exists in the world and is never ashamed to intrinsically know that there are some experiences that will forever be beyond the purview of the individual. There are entire lives that we do not lead due to circumstance, and there are things that we will never know because we live in different times and places. There are emotions that flay to the bone and feelings that allow the self to soar above tragedy. To strive for knowledge is to seek all of these out in our lives through whatever sensory inputs we have available. We can hope to make sense of it, but our esteem is not broken when we inevitably fail, for even imperfection is better than a total dearth.

To worship knowledge is to place one's entire self-worth on that altar, and to believe that people's worth can and should be measured by that function alone. I find this intensely problematic: What about people who are intelligent but lazy, or people of average intelligence who perform superbly through effort? What about people who may not be book-smart but have a wealth of other characteristics that are essential to functioning in society? How do we quantify intelligence - purely through IQ, or are there some forms of intelligence like emotional intelligence that IQ cannot quantify? What about animals, who have sensory inputs and forms of knowledge that are alien to us Homo sapiens as a species? To worship knowledge is uncomfortably like the pre-Darwinian view that people sit atop an illusory pyramid in the world. Hell, even after Darwin started gaining traction, craniology was invented to show that white men had superb intelligence through genetics. The knowledge that Darwin tried to bring to the world to help humanity learn that it was but a single strand of the global ecosystem's eons-old song was then used to divide and measure people by their race. Intelligence and knowledge are neutral things, in my opinion. How you use intelligence matters far more than the presence or lack of it.

When doing counterterrorism research, I found that terrorists were often more rational than most people, i.e. they had an "x leads to y, therefore we must eliminate x to achieve our goals" mindset more than the average human. These findings are buttressed by Antonio Damasio's fantastic popular science book: Descartes' Error. It is emotional linkage to the fabric of humanity that allow us to make "human-conscious" decisions like opting to create a political party to advocate for one's political goals instead of bombing a skyscraper. If we were being totally rational human beings who valued knowledge and the scientific method above all else, we'd probably be extinct by now. Instead, we moderate our knowledge with our experiences, and that is what allows us to achieve what we have so far.

[elmo_says]

On 11/25/2017 at 2:12 PM, lutherblissett said:

Your note on student debt is sound, and I will add to that by saying that student debt should not exceed 150% of starting salary.

Where on earth did you get that 150% rule? Navient? I remember hearing a "100% of starting salary" rule when I was applying a few years ago, and I don't think that IR career trajectories have increased dramatically over the past few years.

Mapping Your Future (a non-profit educational counseling group) recommends no more than 8% of your gross earnings. Based on a 60k starting salary, that means taking out no more than 35k in loans assuming a 6.8% interest rate. (Also, in much of the public and non-profit sectors, 60k is not guaranteed starting out, especially if you don't have much work experience). 

Now I will grant that that is a pretty conservative estimate. But another guide is what the federal government considers affordable for income-based repayment plans. To get your IBR payment, you take your salary and subtract 150% of the federal poverty line. So let's do some math:

$60,000 salary minus $16,335 = $43,655.

To get your IBR payment, multiply that by 15% to get about $6,550, or about $546/month. That translates to less than 50k/year in loans, assuming a 10-year-repayment plan and a 6.8% interest rate. (I used this calculator).

 

[lutherblissett]

On 12/12/2017 at 6:45 AM, elmo_says said:

Where on earth did you get that 150% rule? Navient? I remember hearing a "100% of starting salary" rule when I was applying a few years ago, and I don't think that IR career trajectories have increased dramatically over the past few years.

Mapping Your Future (a non-profit educational counseling group) recommends no more than 8% of your gross earnings. Based on a 60k starting salary, that means taking out no more than 35k in loans assuming a 6.8% interest rate. (Also, in much of the public and non-profit sectors, 60k is not guaranteed starting out, especially if you don't have much work experience). 

Now I will grant that that is a pretty conservative estimate. But another guide is what the federal government considers affordable for income-based repayment plans. To get your IBR payment, you take your salary and subtract 150% of the federal poverty line. So let's do some math:

$60,000 salary minus $16,335 = $43,655.

To get your IBR payment, multiply that by 15% to get about $6,550, or about $546/month. That translates to less than 50k/year in loans, assuming a 10-year-repayment plan and a 6.8% interest rate. (I used this calculator).

 

I got the rule from other forums, it's really largely hearsay. At the end of the day, we can think of debt load like a sliding scale: you take on as much risk as you want and as you are able, and some decisions are more sound than others. I put my risk load at 150% of starting salary, some other people put it at 100% of starting salary.

However, the information you gave about Mapping Your Future is really great! I'm looking through this information now. As a pending law school grad doing a joint degree, there is always the option to do high-paying work for a few years to burn through those student loans. So I think my trajectory is moving in a different direction from most of the people in this thread.

[Nico Corr]

Before I began trawling the grad cafe for info, I was dead set on going to grad school to study foreign policy. I knew I wanted to enter this field around my 2nd year of college, and planned meticulously to apply. All in all, about five years of preparation and research. I was a bit nervous but excited about going down this path and although I knew it wouldn't be easy, I was confident I could navigate grad school and the field to get admittance somewhere, and ultimately a job in the field.

This forum, and posts like this on it have really jaded me, and for a time, I stopped prepping my applications, I even considered getting a job in another field. I was encouraged by someone I know to apply for an entry-level position in a very lucrative construction firm's talent & acquisition department. I flirted with the idea for awhile as the money was good, and the company culture was a fit, but at the end of the day I realized that it wasn't for me, and who wants to be involved in talent acquisition anyways?

I know it's best to already get a job in the field before you apply to one of these programs, or get military experience, but none of those options are on the table for me. Grad school at least for me is the most direct path to a career in this field, and you pretty much need a Master's degree just to be considered for entry level jobs. Debt for me at least will be the deciding factor of whether I attend grad school this application cycle, or improve my application and try next round. 

 

[SerenityNow!]

I applied to and attended an MPA program a few years ago and it seems that this conversation hasn’t changed at all in the last 5 years. I just wanted to share a middle ground perspective between “follow your dreams whatever the cost” and “debt is too burdensome - don’t go!” 

1) before you even apply think about what kind of debt your willing to take on. For me the answer was minimal so I didn’t apply to any programs in NYC or SF because I knew the COL was really high and would become a huge chunk of my debt while schools like Duke and Michigan were, to me at least, comparable to NYU and Columbia but with way lower COLs. 

2) if you can save a little money before attending - anything you can pay up front and reduce your debt by is great because you will never have to pay interest on it. I had about $10k saved and that was immensely helpful.

3) take a paid summer internship, if you have that opportunity available to you. I know lots of summer internships are unpaid in this field but I needed the money and when it came down to it I choose between working at OMB for free and a consulting firm. While OMB was “cooler” to my friends I have no regrets - I made another $10k over the summer while living frugally in DC and therefore didn’t take on additional debt over the summer and was able to use my left over money to pay for things during my 2nd year. I think people put prestige as the driving force behind many things but I think it’s fine to let money play a factor. I also got a job offer at the end of the summer and was able to have a stress free 2nd year which allowed me to pick up an extra job for their reducing my debt burden. 

4) this one is a little contravertial but I think gradcafe is a bubble and it is really easy to get caught up in the rankings of schools and the prestige of HKS,SAIS, SIPA etc... on this board. I however, went to a well ranked but less frequently discussed school on gradcafe, SPEA. I graduated with multiple friends who had PMF, most friends had good jobs in fields they wanted that paid well and put them in the city of their choice, usually DC. I enjoyed my time there and while I don’t brag about it the way I might had I gone to HKS I work with plenty of HKS people now and can say our education was comparable and we ended up in the same place with the same salaries. Prestige matters a lot less in public policy than for MBA or PhD programs.

while I do want to caveat this by saying I received a very generous financial aid offer from SPEA, I really think if you give some financial consideration on the front end of things you can, as they say “have it all” (follow your dreams and afford it  )

[rheidzan]

If you want to make an impact on a SE Asian region that doesn't have any water, why not study civil or mechanical engineering? Not only you will make an impact with you technical skills, you'll also have a tangible skills and knowledge to make a living wherever you are. 

Columbia SIPA's MPA in Environmental Science and Policy program

Not agreeing or disagreeing with OP, but what the hell do you study in environmental science and policy that is not covered by going to a state school and studying BS in ME or Civ E and then a MS in Environmental Engineering? The reverse is actually true that you probably get a lot more with BS in ME/CE and then a MS in environmental engineering. 

 

[styliane]

On 3/13/2018 at 10:32 AM, rheidzan said:

If you want to make an impact on a SE Asian region that doesn't have any water, why not study civil or mechanical engineering? Not only you will make an impact with you technical skills, you'll also have a tangible skills and knowledge to make a living wherever you are. 

 

 

Not agreeing or disagreeing with OP, but what the hell do you study in environmental science and policy that is not covered by going to a state school and studying BS in ME or Civ E and then a MS in Environmental Engineering? The reverse is actually true that you probably get a lot more with BS in ME/CE and then a MS in environmental engineering. 

 

Engineering masters degrees are not much more likely to be funded than IR masters degrees (and most IR candidates are not qualified for an engineering MS).

[tairos]

This is why I ended up doing an generalist IR master's, despite my well-informed misgivings: I would have had to return to undergrad for years to fulfill prerequisites.  Even if I could do so inexpensively at a community college, what sort of applicant would I have made?  A lackluster one at best I think.

[elmo_says]

Honestly, the IR universe could use more people with highly specialized, technical skillsets. But it's a tough sell, because people with those degrees can get much higher salaries elsewhere. 

[styliane]

On 4/2/2018 at 7:58 PM, elmo_says said:

Honestly, the IR universe could use more people with highly specialized, technical skillsets. But it's a tough sell, because people with those degrees can get much higher salaries elsewhere. 

I clearly agree; I'm mid-MS in physics and switching to IR.