DrFaustus666

GOOD QUESTION ! No, I haven't tried that, but I'll do that tonight when I have some time. Your question definitely piques my curiousity.

And the ultimate irony is this: Suppose you're shooting for an 800 on the verbal test. You have 30 questions and 30 minutes. If you spend too long on the first ten questions (say, two minutes each) .... then you only have 10 minutes left to answer the remaining 20 questions. That's 30 seconds per question. Only the very very brightest can answer all questions correctly under that scenario. So, if you KNOW you're very good at [ Q or V ] and you want to score a TOP score, not just a good score, then you CAN'T spend a lot of time on the early questions, because then you'll never have enough time LEFT to solve the really very difficult questions you'll get at the end. N.B.: None of the above negates the general advice for MOST test takers: Be very careful on the first five to ten questions, and use extra time if you need to. But if you're in that rarefied atmosphere (you expect to score 780+ on Quant and 750+ on Verbal), then you can't waste time on the first ten. You must CONSERVE time for the last few questions, which will be the most difficult of all. As the Wicked Witch in The Wizard of Oz said while melting, "Oh what a world, what a world!"

Hi again, I forgot one other piece of information you all may find interesting. Some of the test guides say, "If you have no inkling, not the slightest clue as to what the correct answer is, then answer D ..." ... while some others say, under the same conditions, "answer C" .... Well, I also ran POWERPREP and answered every question with C. Then I ran it again and answered every question with D. My results were indistinguishable: on both Verbal and Quantitative exams, for "all answers C" and "all answers D", the results came out between 250 and 280. I conclude there is no subliminal preference on the part of the test designers to make "C" or "D" the right answer; or, put another way, the correct answers are equally dispersed among all possible choices (i.e., "A" through "E"). John

I've spent the last year (among other things) "playing around" with the official ETS POWERPREP program. I've run the two tests supplied so many times, literally over 100 times for each test, that I have all the right answers memorized. I.e., I can get an 800 on both exams every time if I want to. (This applies to POWERPREP ONLY, not the REAL GRE!!!!!! .... ( My real scores in Feb 2010, using questions that I did not know before taking the test were 760 V 690 Q). Point of this is: that preparatory work enabled me to come to some very interesting discoveries: (1) If I DELIBERATELY answer the first three questions WRONG, the highest possible score, on both verbal and quantitative, is about 600 to 660. (2) If I DELIBERATELY answer all questions correctly up to but not including the last two questions, for both verbal and quantitative, I can STILL get an 800. Yup, you read it right. You can get the last two questions WRONG, and still score an 800 on POWERPREP ... IF you answered every single preceding question correctly. (3) If I DELIBERATELY answer the FIRST question wrong, and all other questions correctly, my score is 780. The computer adaptive test DEFINITELY adapts and it's absolutely critical that you answer the first five to ten questions correctly if you want to score significantly over median, i.e., over 650 in quantitative and over 600 in verbal. Good Luck, John

I agree with Lily. I wouldn't for a moment assume that the test will be easier in toto. My guess is that the new Verbal portion may be somewhat---but not a lot---easier than the current Verbal exam, and the new Quantitative exam will be considerably more difficult. Being able to go back and forth is certainly an improvement---It saves "us" from the nightmare scenario of accidentally hitting the wrong answer (when we know the right answer!) on two or three questions in the first ten and thus totally sinking our chances of getting a top score.

Hi ThreeBrains, My 800-is-96th percentile came from ETS, specifically from the POWERPREP program, which has statistics from 2003 or 2004, I think. They do state that the percentile rankings of a given absolute score vary slightly from year to year. In this case, it means the Quantitative Exam has become even more competitive. Also, I checked out ETS' score-comparison software, which is supposed to give an equivalent GMAT vs GRE score. And indeed, assuming that software is correct, the verbal portion of the GMAT DOES weigh more heavily on one's final score than the verbal portion. EXCEPT that a very high verbal score does not offset a very poor quantitative score much. In other words, it appears that the GMAT puts heavy weight on both, though it puts more emphasis on verbal than quantitative. In short, somebody who wants to get into a very highly ranked, heavily quantitatively oriented program ought to take the Advanced Mathematics test, as you imply. Thanks for the insight! John

Nibor: The "Mathematical Finance" program might well be administered under the aegis of a Business School, which in turn might well require or at least accept the GMAT in lieu of the GRE. That's what was going thru my mind when I wrote that. I'm a liberal arts guy who dabbles in computer science ... math beyond 1st year calculus is not my area, but it SEEMED plausible enough. At any rate, the applicant would be responsible to ascertain which test(s) he/she takes ... we are all adults and we all know we must read the list of application requirements, not only of the program, but in large universities, of the university as a whole ... And it seemed to me that if robu has a choice (and, as you point out, he may not!), the GMAT might show him in a stronger light. I am quite certain, having taken BOTH tests, that the GMAT's math is a considerably more rigorous math test than the GRE. I've never taken the GRE Advanced Math test, and so I cannot comment about it. Robu: I apologize for not qualifying my statement with "if the school(s) you are interested in accept the GMAT." My advice stands. IF you are allowed to take the GMAT instead of the GRE, it might be to your advantage to do so. John

Hi Robu, First I agree with Nibor, your Verbal score is not bad at all, and your Quant won't get any better. Nibor's comments also reminded me that there is MUCH controversy around the AW score---so much so that even top political science or English literature etc., where writing is all-important---even those programs DO NOT generally put a lot of emphasis on the AW score. Finally, you got an 800 GRE Quant. You probably know, but you may not know, that a full 4 percent of GRE takers get an 800 Quant score. In other words, the 800 means you are GOOD in math, but the GRE quantitative test cannot discriminate if you are good, or very good, or excellent, or Einstein. SO, if your math is REALLY superior, you might have a better shot at a top school by taking the GMAT. The Verbal in the GMAT is a little bit easier than the GRE Verbal; and the GMAT math is quite a bit more difficult than the GRE. In other words, you could show yourself in the very best light possible. Just a thought. The GMAT costs a lot: $250. But for a person with skills just as I perceive yours to be, i.e., Verbal, good, Quantitative, superior---the GMAT might be a better test.

Hi Robu, You haven't said what major you'd like to apply in, whether you're looking for a top school, or possibly a middle-level school that would provide funding, etc., etc., It's hard to say. I GATHER, and it's just my guess, from your name and from a couple of minor grammatical errors in your posting, that you are not a native speaker of English. In that case, I'm told you TOEFL score is more important than your GRE Verbal. But 580 is NOT a bad verbal score, especially for someone whose native language is not English, and even more, for someone who is probably in technical / quantitative field (Q=800)???? In general though, I'd say an MS degree probably helps you, yes. John

Based on what I've read in this forum, and opinions differ wildly, the answer to your question is "it depends." IF your UGPA is very good, AND you have lots of research, AND an excellent statement of purpose, AND stellar recommendations . . . . A N D . . . . (this is critical) ... your GREs are in the top 25% of GREs (for all three scores!) for your institution and intended graduate major ... THEN NO, you probably do NOT need to re-take the GRE BUT if any of the above non-GRE criteria are weak in any way, or if your GRE is borderline (say, 40th to 50th percentile of their ADMITTED students to your program) ... THEN it's probably worth it to you to re-take the GRE. In spite of the outrageous $150 fee, to say nothing of the preparation you may or may not have to do. The conventional wisdom, it seems, is "your GRE score cannot get you INTO graduate school, but it can keep you OUT [ or keep you from receiving funding even if you are admitted ]" My two cents. John

I don't think it is a particularly good indicator. I took their book's exam, the CD exam, and the online exam. In all three, I did better in Verbal than Quant, as exprected. But I also did significantly WORSE in the Princeton Review practice tests than on the real thing. About 100 points lower on both Verbal and Quant, or conversely, I scored 100 points higher on each in the real thing than Princeton Review predicted.

I didn't read through all the flaming and pointless discussions, but did the gre prep work well Dr.Faustus? First, I hope it wasn't flaming ... a little heated maybe, but not flaming ... and it certainly wasn't pointless. It got me to enroll in a refresher math course at my local community college (I placed in Calc 1, to my astonishment, I thought I'd forgotten all that stuff decades ago). But, to answer your question, I did not take the highly-touted or -disparaged course after all. When payment time came up, I didn't have a spare $1900, so I decided that a full math run-thru at my local community college would cost less and I'd learn more. -John

Hi Eagle-Bear, (Off topic, in the subject of "sqacking") Did you know that my home state, Maryland, supposedly has the highest population of "Canada geese" in North America?) They can be seen all year round, almost anywhere in the state including in the grimy industrial city of Baltimore ... and they DO squawk. But they're magnificent birds, and I hope they decide to remain here. Maybe we'll rename them "Baltimore Geese" as the populations of our native "Baltimore Oriole," the State Bird of Maryland, are dwindling quickly.) ON TOPIC This forum is bizarrely populated and as regards GRE. Everybody's opinion and experiences are different. If you stay around for a while, you'll hear everything from one extreme of "It doesn't really matter what your GRE is, as long as your undergraduate GPA, your statement of purpose, your internships, your recommendations, etc., are high enough" .... all the way to the other extreme of "To get into a top 10 school, you must have near 1600 GRE AND a 4.0 average GPA, AND stellar recommendations, AND a terrific writing sample AND even then, you may be passed over if you've not PUBLISHED any research yet." The best advice, it seems, is to contact the institutions you'd like to attend. They'll usually at least tell you AVERAGE scores. AND, in sciences, especially the harder sciences, a near-perfect Q score does seem essential at the top schools. This is because a full 4% of all takers receive a perfect 800 on the Quantitative exam. Whereas, in the Verbal section, you can score as low as 760 and still be in the 99th percentile. So ... if you're in a heavily quantitatively oriented specialty ("environmental studies" is not too specific, at least for my ignorant liberal-arts background) ... in my opinion you'd be well advised to shoot for the highest possible Quantitative score, preferably an 800.. (Your Verbal score of 690 seems "probably good enough" though God knows the competition is stiff and if you could break into the low 700s it wouldn't hurt, I would think.) Re Quantitative: The good news is, many, but not all, quantitatively oriented people (and I am NOT one of those) assert that the Quantitative test is a piece of cake. So, does that answer your question? Probably not. Good luck though! And welcome to the USA, John

Hi CPU 90, and anyone else who's interested in kicking this long dead horse "just one more time" , I do hope I am mostly on target and you are mostly still reeling from your undergrad experience. I have three specific cases to cite. Two of these concern people I know personally, the first is from a book I read. Case #1. Although the book is actually addressed to high school students seeking admission into colleges, I urge you to buy (or better yet, check out from your local library, a copy of a book called "Harvard Schmarvard" by { insert first name here } Matthews .... it focuses on smaller institutions with superior faculties, the members of which have burning desires to TEACH, to share their knowledge, etc. One chapter of it in particular is, Create your own Harvard. ... WHAT A CONCEPT ! ... Matthews cites the case of a student he knew, who, if my memory is right, came out of an inner city high school with so-so grades. The student was admitted, probably by the skin of his teeth, to Virginia Commonwealth University, which ranks about 5th or 6th of out 10 among Virginia's state colleges, far below Virginia's #1 and #2 University of Virginia, and the College of William and Mary (VCU does have nice campus though! been there!). The kid worked his butt off, lived in the library and the lab, schmoozed the professors, read research journals intended for working MD's, while he himself was struggling with organic chemistry, went to every conference he could wrangle an invitation to, even if it meant he had to wait tables at the reception to get in to the conference, and interned in hospitals. Again, as often as not, his "hospital experience" was doing things like cleaning bedpans, BUT ALSO chatting with any doctor or nurse who was willing to talk to him ---- and eventually he got into Harvard Medical School. Case #2. A good friend went to SUNY Stony Brook, majored in English. After languishing for about five years in a totally dead-end job ... he did the same sort of thing ... and after LOTS of remedial work on his OWN TIME, got into Georgetown Law School, and is now a partner in a small Washington, DC law firm --- his home has about seven bedrooms and five baths, ....and uh ... oh yeah, he just bought a smaller weekend home in the lovely town of Annapolis, Maryland. Case #3. My own brother is now a research chemist (Ph.D., UNC in Research Triangle) for Pfizer --- and he had a 1.9 HS GPA (or seriously, it might have been a 1.7, I don't remember and don't want to embarass him by asking him). He had undiagnosed ADHD ... he went to a community college, finished two years of college in one year, then went to UNC, earned a B.S., then M.S., then PhD. (He had no funding but didn't need it -- in the meantime, he'd spent 20 years as an enlisted man in the U.S. Army, and so he got Uncle Sam to pay his way through college and grad school). Summing Up It CAN be done. It's not easy, but it can be done. I'm pinning my dreams on that and I hope you won't give up your dreams. Stellar GRE Score? As to VERY high GRE scores, I think the consensus agrees with you. Very high scores may help with funding, but then again they may not. Among grad students ALREADY admitted, the person with a 1570 GRE (770-V, 800-Q) has a better chance of landing that "Throckmorton B. Ellis-Willibard Fellowship in Advanced Heuristic Neural Networks" at PICK-A-HIGH-TECH-U than the person who got a 1290. As many have said, and I'm grudgingly beginning to believe, one's GRE score cannot get you into a top school, but it can keep you out. Be that as it may, "Full Steam Ahead" GOOD LUCK TO YOU! And don't lose heart. Hang in there, Keep studying, keep working, and keep in touch! John

You wrote: I can't say that this is wrong, but this is just the sad truth that if we mess up undergrad, we seriously need to put 100x the work and try to get lucky.. I work for "the government" ... and when we hire somebody for a permanent full time position (as opposed to temporary or contract positions, which are generally easy to obtain), the situation is very very similar to what you describe: several layers of secretaries and assistants "weed you out" before you even have a chance at talking to a manager. But there are always outliers, there are always "a few good (wo)men" who have the initiative to DO the 100x extra work to get in. I did not say, nor do I deceive myself into thinking it is easy for a nice guy with a crummy UGPA to get in. I only said it was POSSIBLE and NOT IMPOSSIBLE if you (anyone) have enough drive and can withstand setbacks. You may never be admitted into the inner sancta of MIT or Harvard or Stanford or whatever your dream school is, but you can pursue your dream, possibly with reduced expectations (e.g., no funding). Absolutely correct. To get in via the NORMAL FRONT DOOR ENTRANCE is tough and one's application must be near-perfect. But there are a lot of side doors, at least in our environment. And I'm naive enough to think it must be that way in academia too. Wishful thinking? Naiveté? Just plain stupidity? Maybe. But I hope not. Best wishes to all.

Thanks. My initial letter above indicated that I thought I'd found the missing link ... and that is PARTIALLY true, but in the meantime I've decided to follow your model--I'll take several refresher math courses at the local community college (10 mins drive away). I seem to have forgotten a lot, some of which maybe I should just MEMORIZE, like all those silly questions about the properties of numbers. Eg., "how many three digit even numbers with a 5 or 2 in any digit are there between 200 and 800?" ... I really have to ask myself, "What on EARTH is the purpose of a question like this?" BOTH from the perspectives of (1) "What are they (ETS) trying to test??" (How fast the test-taker can work out a non-brute-force strategy, most likely) ... AND from the perspective of (2) "Is this something anybody will EVER use again once a good test score is under their belt??????" That's the question that really defeats my poor non-quantitatively-oriented mind. Even the silly, detested, and all but universally scorned 6-point essay writing portion of the GRE has some relevance by comparison. (Yes, grad school teachers--not all, but a good portion of them---DO give final exams with essay questions). Ranting about things over which I have absolutely no control Have a great holiday, everyone. Congratulations to all who "got in" ... and "chins up!", "don't be too down-hearted" and "try try again" to those who didn't. I've read in several different sources that admissions committees have been more selective than ever, due to the poor economy. First, MORE people are going to graduate school to either improve their job, or instead of taking a (non-existent) job; and second, in general, there is LESS grant/fellowship/TA money available, so there are more people chasing fewer { insert currency unit of your choice }. Best to all! John

Hi Immunoglobulin and anybody else who might have felt intimidated by all these people with 4.0 GPAs from top undergraduates programs, and 1500+ GREs (or 770+ GMATs), Thanks for your very encouraging news ! And (geez I forget my manners at times !) A HEARTY CONGRATULATIONS! Best of luck in your program, work hard, study hard, and so on. It must feel really validating and encouraging, I would think, to be "in" even when many supposedly knowlegegabele and well-informed people would tell you that you have little chance --- or at the very least, you can count on PAYING YOUR OWN WAY through school THREE CHEERS FOR YOU! John

"read some 19th century lit (I've been told that they use a lot more words that appear on the GRE than current novels do" Absolutely true. There are also some good vocabulary sources in modern literature: My favorites are Vladimir Nabokov (of Lolita fame), Faulkner, James Joyce, and of course, non-fiction, such as The Economist or the editorial pages of The New York Times.

I've been a serious, and sometimes frantically desperate, student of the GRE (and SAT, which I tutor part-time) if you're interested; I've found some very interesting information. The chances of improving your score significantly in such a short period are near zero, even if they DON'T realize you took it twice within seven days (-----and it's a near certainty they WILL notice, they're very sharp about such things-----). BTW, I define "increase your score significantly" in terms of percentiles rather than reported scores. Assuming you are a statistically median ordinary vanilla college graduate with a median vanilla ordinary 3.25 average, you'll receive a "first" score of approximately V-480 Q-570 AW-4.0. Very close to the 50th percentile in all three. It is worth supposing hypothetically that something goes catastrophically wrong for/with you during the test (such as a sudden and acute attack of food poisoning or narcolepsy during the test). You will almost certainly score far below your true ability. In that case it's worth it to try again soon. But most test takers, as it appears from both reading all the postings and from my own self-experimentation, (three full-length computer exams in the last five years, plus a paper exam back in 1976) need at least two months review between tests to improve their scores more than 20 percentile points. That would give you greater than or equal to 70th percentile, which is approximately: V-550 Q-670 AW-5.0 (actually about 75th percentile) (all info based on 2003-2004 statistics from ETS). Bottom line is, I'd say you should spend your time studying and save your money for a while. My two cents.

Go slee! We know you can do it. The ADD stuff is just messed up chemistry and has nothing to do with the intelligent person (I assume you're a man, but don't know positively) we know as slee. Good luck, stay on the meds, at least a week before the test continuously, then definitely on the day of the test. Oh, and also, there are really goOd holistic things you can do to help: get plenty of sleep, drink lots of water, exercise moderately, and take a break from studying every now and then too! Geez sorry I sound like an old man ... Oh yeah! I am an old man. Again, good luck Mr./Ms. Slee! John

Hi again Liszt, Am just beginning to focus on the things you mention .... up until VERY recently, literally, the last couple of weeks, I naively assumed that the only places one could do top-notch research are top-notch (read: big-name) universities. A very recent acquaintance in the real world--(a woman I just began dating in fact, whose law degree is from that very well known university in Cambridge, MA)--has disabused me of this misconception. She says her own alma mater and other big-name schools can be and often are overrated if my goal is to study and learn and add to the world's knowledge base. So, to answer your question, no, I don't really know the state of the art of computer modeling of music, German or otherwise, but finding out is definitely on my "to do" list. I should get on the internet, find out who's done what, where .... download their software, including source code, if they'll let me, or at least read their papers and obtain a nodding familiarity with the cutting edge work. ... And, following your and my GF's advice, then, if the best and most innovative stuff is being done at the University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople (special Dr Faustus trivia award if you can identify this allusion), then that's where I should apply. I've moved a bit slowly on this because I still have one daughter's undergraduate college tuition to pay (expensive private liberal arts college, what else?), as well as financial obligations to my former spouse. The point being, I can't really start serious grad school until I can retire from my embarassingly high-paid but useless job -- and I can't do that until the debts and alimony run out. So I have some time. And, finally ... your psych background serves you well .... I DO indeed have a pessimistic, dark side, as my two brothers have been telling me since I was about twelve yrs old. Thanks again for your thoughtful posts. John

Hi Lily, Thanks for your nice post! And good luck to you whatever you do. I will take the course, most likely late in April, based on Roger Van Dijk's recommendation (see above). As to breaking 1300-1400, I've already done that. I'm shooting for 1550-1600 so as to make up for my patchy background and MAYBE just MAYBE get me into a top-notch program. Again good luck! Also, as a final thought, I remembered on my commute to work today, that former U.S. President Calvin Coolidge, one of the most unremarkable presidents, earned his degree from very prestigious Amherst College, whereas several other presidents of the USA attended quite inconsiderable schools, and one or two (including Abraham Lincoln, I THINK?!?) did not attend any college. Take care, John But I will let

Dass Dein Sprichwort vielleicht für meine Ziele gälte, erregt in mir eine ganz unheimliche Mischung von Angst und selbstabwertender Resignation, wenn nicht von vollkommenem Selbsthass. Du hast Scharfsinn, ohne Zweifel. I failed to mention that I'd like to try to build computer models to analyze in what ways the peculiarities of the German language have influenced the history and structure (read: harmonies, melodic structures, formal structures) of German vocal music. That's how the MA in German supports the interdisciplinary PhD idea. I also forgot to mention (silly me!) that in my free time I've taken about 30 credits of Computer Science courses (3.8 avg). No, I have no degree of any kind in C.S., but in my deadly dull information technology job in the bureaucracy of the USA's criminal justice system, I supervise people, several of whom have MS in CS; one of them, years ago, hailed from from MIT. BUT you've somehow also discovered that I have a strong drive for recognition, and you are right. I've always felt second best, second place, "also ran" etc etc etc etc and maybe I shouldn't go to graduate school but spend an equivalent amount of time and effort in a psychiatrist's coach, I dunno. But I love to study and learn--in fact I'm unstoppable in that respect--AND I want to be respected for it. Is that so bad?

Hi Liszt, It was NOT you to whom I was referring as a pessimist, it was the well-known poster whose name begins with a synonym for ocean! No, I agree, you are a realist ... and I DID mention my MA degrees earlier, though possibly not on this thread. And you're right, I don't have a clue as to how this is done because, despite my miserable undergraduate record ... believe it or not ... I have been admitted to every graduate school to which I've applied ... every single one (over the years, about fifteen or twenty total, between the two different majors)! The difference is, those were all mid-range schools, (though the best of them, the school where I earned MA #1 and am working on MA #2, University of Maryland, is pushing hard to make itself a top (abeit) state university). Indeed in some fields such as computer science, U of MD is a top 20 university already, if not a top 10 university. In the case of my first field, Music, nobody gives a ratt's butt about grades or GREs or recommendations (though there was a GRE Subject Test in music way back then, and I scored 99th percentile on that!) ... or even TOEFLs ... ! .. All they cared about was that I PLAYED my instrument well enough to pass their audition. In my second field, German, again, all the committee cared about---and told me they were astonished by, I might add---was that I've taught MYSELF to speak read and write German on a level equivalent to a (GPA 3.6-ish) BA in German, but have never set foot in a German speaking country, nor lived with a speaker of German, nor learned the language in any of the more usual and conventional ways. I just got out the books and a dictionary and a journal for newly learned words, and started reading .... Just like that. Granted, it took me over ten years to reach the proficiency normally obtained by one junior-year of living in Germany ... BUT I DID IT with nothing but my own resources and my own drive. And now, as I near retirement age, and no longer have a termagant of a wife to live with, nor children with debilitating mental illness to consume almost all of my free time, to say nothing of consuming the equivalent of several years tuition at a top private university ... NOW I'm beginning a new adventure ... I'd like to become a REAL scholar, with credentials from, if not a top-ranked university, at least a top-ranked program in an overall-mid-ranked university. So, Liszt, I DO appreciate your openness and directness. And I agree that no progress is possible without knowing one's weaknesses. But I won't accept the other couple of posters' assessments that I've "ruined my life" ... just because I partied too much in my freshman year .... not until the Ad Comm at my top five choices all tell me that, anyway. Take care, and remaining a friend(?), John