[I feel that my college history has tainted me.]

While I'm not in anything resembling your field, I don't think a 3.57 is a Mark o' Doom in any subject, and especially not if your undergrad was in engineering as well. Especially your GRE score should be enough to get adcoms to look beyond the GRE/GPA entryway--that is, at statement of purpose and letters of recommendation. The SOP seems particularly important in your case. That is where you explain your supposedly abnormal (I don't think your record is anywhere near as unusual as you do, based both on what I've seen here and the people in my dept) academic history. And, critically, why your past problems are no longer a factor and will not affect your future work. In your case, it seems like it was a pretty time-specific thing, so you shouldn't have much trouble with that.

The other thing is LORs. I imagine you are being modest for the sake of TGC, but fwiw, having people say you would make a "fine candidate" isn't going to cut it. You want your LOR writers to attest that you are the second coming of Bernoulli and von Braun.

I don't know much about AE programs. I think in a lot of cases, companies actually fund degrees for their employees (this is how it works for my friends at Boeing and at various NASA contractors), and have contracts with specific universities to offer company-sponsored funding packages if the person gets admitted. So if that's a factor for you, check with your company.

Another thing might also be fit with schools. Maybe you've applied to programs that are particularly keen on producing students who stay in academia, but you indicated an interest in industry work? Vice versa? Or just, no match of research interest with professor? There is always a certain amount of randomness, probably the biggest factor, that means even awesome applicants get passed over because That Professor just wasn't taking students this year, or Other Prof got all the funding.

There were a good number of third-time successes last year. I think most of them also worked with a prof from undergrad to improve their applications as much as humanly possible for the third go-round, so that might be something else to consider. Someone with an idea of what grad programs in your field are looking for. Good luck!

-Sparky, who had to send in transcripts from four undergrad schools plus an MA transcript

[Social exclusion in grad school?]

lewin00--yeah, I'm already thinking about that.

The car is a difficult situation, especially as winter sets in (I mean, it's just kind of mean to ask her to walk in the cold).

All the more reason to "change your schedule" *before* the cold gets here? Or, if the daycare situation renders that impossible, you should at *least* have the right to ask her to change the subject (ergo not complain).

I don't know. I try to be a good person and help others when I can.

Enabling dependent and socially-destructive behavior is *not* helping. Especially for a PhD student! And it *is* socially destructive. You can't stand to be around her, and you're obviously a hugely caring and loving person! How would someone with less patience and more selfishness react? (Does she have any other friends? This would explain why all she wants to do is complain--everyone needs to vent, and you may be her only outlet).

[Transferring from a school with quarter system to a school with semester system]

"Transferring" in grad school is very, very different than transferring in undergrad. Generally, you basically apply to the new program as a beginning student all over again. Some credit hours from the first program might be accepted by the second, but every dept is going to be different on whether or how many. (Regardless of semester/quarter equivalency issues).

Grad programs generally want you to have the *whole* experience of their program, because the name of your grad school matters in your professional life in a way that your undergrad alma mater's name doesn't. (As a working professional, your competence will reflect directly on your school, so this is prudent on their part).

It's different if you're dissertation-stage in a PhD program and switching schools is a matter of following your advisor. But in general, an undergrad-style transfer does not exist at the grad level, or if it does, it would be pretty rare.

Nb: I'm talking about academic rather than professional master's programs. I don't know if it's different for e.g. MBA, but I kind of suspect not.

[Can we have a gif party or something?]

I hope that the thematic fit can make up for the lack of animation:

[Economic history programs with strong Marxian bent?]

Generally, history departments are organized into subfields by geographic area, and then sometimes further divided by era. We can be of much more use if you let us know where and when you (or the person on whose behalf you're asking) are fascinated enough by to drag yourself through a PhD.

The best method of looking for schools remains to identify professors who do the kind of work you want to do in the time and place that interests you. In other words, who wrote the articles and books you wish you'd written? What departments are they in?

[Dealing with students on the spectrum]

Do you use PPTs during discussion or while you lecture? The prof I'm TAing for right now does, and he color-codes his slides. If the background is green, students are free to ask questions related to that or the previous material. If the backgroud color is e.g. yellow, it means don't interrupt. And so forth. Of course he explains the system to the class at the beginning of the semester/at the point when it becomes necessary to do so.

That doesn't help deal with the "unrelated tangents" problem, but it might keep them more manageable time-wise, and thus be fairer to the rest of the class as well as still giving your enthusiastic but needing a little help student a legit chance to engage.

The prof has also remarked that he started getting more questions in general once he implemented the color-coded slides. Apparently students felt like he was giving them "permission" to ask questions, even though ostensibly the floor had always been open for them. So there's that as well!

[Dissertations and Bibliographies]

Yeah, I suspect that you won't find so much out there that deals directly with funerary inscriptions, but rather secondary works that use inscriptions as the main source base. I don't do ancient or even late antique, but I have the vague impression that social history-type stuff might be a good place to look. I sort of recollect that some important women's history work has been done based *largely* on funerary inscriptions. Sorry I can't point you to anything more specific.

ETA: I love that you went from EE to classics. You are my hero, even if you do love Latin.

[Dissertations and Bibliographies]

Wow, I'm not in classics, so maybe standards are different--but I have never even heard of being given a bibliography for a research project. Perhaps directed to a few helpful sources, or an index to help you find others on your own, but definitely not "Here's your bibliography, okay go." Generally, the first stage of a major research project is developing your OWN bibliography--seeing what scholarship is out there, where the debates are, directions you could go, what primary sources are available and how you can access them, etc. You know--lit review?

If you're looking for more guidance, you could try asking, instead of for a full bibliography, perhaps for the name of one or two relevant scholars, or the title of a journal whose back issues you might browse? Or check the biblio/notes of the book your prof did give you?

I have to say, as a teacher/TA, I won't even give my undergrads a full bibliography. If they ask for one, I do what I suspect your prof did--I recommend a book, article or author (or, um, Wikipedia) as a place to start, and let them take it from there.

[*$&% grades (can I vent?)]

Ahhh (((huggles))). I'm glad you're transferring. I don't know if this will help at all, but my dept is pretty understanding about students messing up in one class. Academic probation here really only matters if you're planning to bomb a class the next semester, too. Maybe it's better just to grit your teeth, take the C and move on with life and coursework?

Meanwhile, I'm <2 weeks out from my not-a-master's-thesis deadline and...just ugh. This project has turned into the diabolical intersection of my geek tendencies (getting really super into what I love to the ridiculously detailed extremes) and academic perfectionism. Unpleasant. And I'm still not done writing.

[Discerning what type of degree to pursue and what universities I should research.]

Well, I wouldn't mind a foot in the Church and a foot in the academy. I guess I'm thinking this way for a couple of reasons:

...

I think in my heart of hearts I was hoping that admissions committees would view my desire to see my learnings bear real, tangible fruits in the world outside of the ivory tower (especially the Church in my case) as a good thing. I wasn't expecting to learn that English faculty/admissions committees want everyone to stay primarily within the academy with the job market the way it is, just creating more English scholars to fight for ever-decreasing space within English departments.

You make lots of sense, and yes yes YES, and "everybody knows it." The problem (and kudos to people on the history board for explaining this so clearly) is that humanities PhD programs earn their funding based essentially on two things: ability of students to bring in outside grant money for specialized research, and ability of students to land tenure-track professorships at 4-year schools.

I *suspect* that you might find a pretty warm reception for your long-term plan at a less well known, nowhere-close-to-top-ranked English dept. I'm not sure what that would do iin terms of job prospects, even as an adjunct. You'd also have to take into account exactly what types of courses adjunct profs, especially those from less "prestigious" schools, usually teach. (Of course, this is unfortunately not as limited as it used to be, but still).

The other option, of course, is to go into ministry, write your novels, become a superstar author, and work as a "star" adjunct teaching a class on Fiction and the Word or whatnot. But my understanding of such positions is that you do not generally need a full-blown PhD.

Having switched from religion to history, in fact, it seems to me that religion/theology is currently the field *most* suited to a blended approach. There is lots of big talk from the MLA and AHA about preparing grad students for jobs outside academia and how to broaden training and appeal to the public and all that jazz. I don't doubt that tenured professors leading major graduate programs are sincere in their desire to change what a PhD means, to adapt it to the current and future economic reality. But given the constraints of why grad programs are allowed to continue to exist, I will believe the changes will happen when I see them.

[Discerning what type of degree to pursue and what universities I should research.]

Anecdotally - I don't know anything about this, really - I was just researching an article about a novel published in a journal called Religion & LIterature. The journal itself is published by Notre Dame - they might have some related program worth looking into.

No, just a monthly discussion group and a journal (and a ton of people working on religious topics in non-theology departments). Harvard and Chicago Div both have PhD concentrations in Religion & Literature, but then you'd be up against PhD admissions at Harvard and Chicago. You might check out whether that's also an option at the M* level at one of those schools, though.

Like previous posters, I'm wondering why you are even thinking about a PhD? If what you want to do is ministry, and you have that qualification...? I know quite a few pastors who have gone *back* to school after a good chunk of time working, in order to improve their biblical or theological training...If it's just a matter of confidence, or you're just not feeling ready for the "real world," what about something like a ThM (one year brush-up degree)?

I mean, if you want to be the next G.K. Chesterton, all the more power to you, but I'm not sure why you see academia as the best path to that.

[Summer Prep?]

On another note (and this may be relevant for the opening poster, so I don't think I'm hijacking), does anyone know if a funding offer with fall, spring, and summer tuition remission would cover summer language courses if they are vital to one's studies? I would guess so, but perhaps it depends on the specific department?

Hm. In contrast to TMP's experience--mine does. But we are kind of nuts (in the sense of, crazy, not in the sense of, wildly enthusiastic) when it comes to languages anyway. People often get external funding to study languages at advanced levels in awesome non-North American places, but if you can take the class at our school, tuition remission applies. My MA school also covered summer language study.

So, I guess it depends.

[Fall 2012 Applicant Chit Chat]

If there are easily three qualified adjunct professors available to fill every position vacated by a retiring tenured professor, then surely there is an oversupply of PhDs?

Thanks for posting, Virmundi!

1. Many (most?) adjuncts have to work at multiple schools in order to eke out something that might approach a living wage (the "freeway flyer" phenomenon).

2. Many adjuncts do not have PhDs, whether they are ABD and writing, "terminal ABD," or just never planning on going beyond a master's.

As I have said before, if U.S. News & World Report started making "percentage of undergrad classroom hours instructed by tenured/permanent* faculty" and "percentage of undergrad classroom hours instructed by faculty with the terminal degree in their field" part of their college rankings, the PhD 'oversupply' would shrink overnight.

Reducing the number of grad students by a handful per program--especially given the dropout rates--is not even going to put a dent in the problem.

* ETA: My undergrad has a "permanent non-tenure" track for faculty who have a job for 'life' like tenured profs but focus on teaching rather than research.

[What are you reading?]

I just finished Heretic Lives - a little misleading, because its actually just biographies of a few important Medieval heretics, not about the lives of actual heretics at all. Oh well - husband bought it for me at a used bookstore, and he had the right idea.

Is it 'heretic lives' in the sense of vitae, hagiography? (rather than 'lifestyles of the evangelically poor and heretical,' or some such)

[Learning a new language from scratch- NOT a medievalist]

Well, I *am* a medievalist, so as one of the people who has to pick up whatever language a particular primary or secondary source just happens to be in, perhaps I can offer helpful advice.

If there is strong tradition of scholarship in your subfield in a particular language, learn that one.

As far as the actual language acquisition goes, most people here audit the undergrad intro classes. There are a few graduate reading classes offered in the summer (mostly the basic languages--Spanish, French, German). If your own school does not offer any, you can probably get a grant through the international studies office (or equivalent thereof) to take a summer class either at another U.S. university, or at a program abroad! (Woo!)

During the learning process, I find it very helpful to read children's and YA books in the target language--especially ones that I've already read in English. Just to get myself used to it.

Also, keep in mind that there is a difference btwn "learning a language" and "learning a language for the test." The second is much, much easier. Of course, if there's a bunch of scholarship on something relevant to your research interests in a particular language, you probably have to, well, actually learn it.

And finally, speaking as a medievalist: if you know a Romance language, the advice to learn another Romance language is good--but for the love of all that is holy, don't pick Latin unless your dept requires it.

[20-Hour TAship]

It's probably listed as a "20-hour TAship" in contrast to a "10-hour TAship." Those are the levels at which full and half assistantships have been listed at both my MA and PhD school. It *definitely* includes preparation--20 classroom hours a week would mean teaching more than six courses, in addition to your own work! As far as workload, that depends on your program. You'll probably be responsible for 1-2 courses, but whether you are leading a discussion section, teaching the whole class, or simply acting as a grader and general helping hand to the prof will likely vary.

[Any other fourth-timers out there?]

I apologize that it came across as a personal attack, neverstop. I have been in a similar situation to you (though without undergrad debt) and I get it, I really do. As I stated, I wasn't talking to or about you--I was trying to respond to points in your post that I think are unclear or wrong. (Experience has taught me that on the Internet, it is impossible to say everything you want to say in exactly the way you want to say it). I should have made that distinction; I didn't and I'm sorry.

I doubt I can come up with any career advice off the top of my head that you haven't come to already (well, certainly none to which you'll be receptive). Quite a few of my friends who were in your (and my former) situation have, in fact, hauled themselves off to Asia to teach English for a few years. One of them actually came back to the US, did an MEd, and is now happily back in Japan. It might not be a permanent solution, but it would give you at least some time to pay off undergrad loans as well as the all-important experience that does, actually, play a factor in getting a teaching job (as testified by a separate set of my friends, most of whom are, like you, BAs in a humanities field with no advanced degree yet). It would require branching out, of course, but you could also see about getting a master's in teaching a critical-need field (math or science). In the end, though, whatever you decide probably will require some risk, certainly (as you lay it out) moving elsewhere. The point about unfunded humanities PhDs, though, is that it is not really a question of "risk" so much as "certain disaster."

To be a bit hypocritical for a moment--you might also consider moving elsewhere (I think you made it pretty clear that you can't be happy where you are, at least on your terms), getting a couple of menial jobs, and making something besides career the focus of your happiness. I don't mean get married and have kids, BTW. I am thinking more like my friends in New York and Chicago, who hold down 2-3 jobs waiting tables and bartending and find their joy in amateur theater (I have seen them act. These are not people who are going to "make it" on any level). There are--and I can testify to this personally--lots of opportunities to be involved in some form of teachiing at the volunteer level. It's not your ideal, I get it, I've been there. But it's something.

ETA: My mom did her entire education, culminating with a PhD, once I started school. Late thirties (and judging from the PhD cohort at my MA school, late forties) being "too old for a PhD" is crap.

[Any other fourth-timers out there?]

neverstop, I realize that nothing I say will dissuade you. Please respect that that is not my intention in this post. I am talking to other people considering unfunded offers.

1. neverstop's picture of the future is RIDICULOUSLY optimistic. "until you get that TT job?" "by the time I finish my degree"? Less than 50% of people who begin humanities PhDs ever finish. Don't assume that just because you want this OH SO BAD (and I get it, I really do), you will finish. Most of the dropouts also wanted the degree OH SO BAD at the beginning. Things happen. Life happens. Family disasters. Health problems. Multiple B+s in your classes mean you are asked to leave the university with a terminal master's. Then let's consider the number of people who *do* finish who ultimately get tenure--a number that is sure to decline as retiring professors' tenure positions are eliminated rather than refilled with a new hire.

2. "(and interdisciplinary degrees can be confusing to some employers)." No. Not confusing. Unacceptable. Outside of a very, very small handful of interdisciplinary programs that have a proven track record of job placement--and "proven" in the last five years, not over the past several decades-- an interdisciplinary PhD makes it all but impossible to get an academic job. It can also make you a tougher sell on the high school job market.

3. Student loan debt is not like other debt.

4. ETA: neverstop is painting a picture of zirself as somehow more deserving of both a spot in a PhD program and of an academic job because of willingness to commit to an insane unfunded PhD. The real world does not care about such romantic notions or false senses of nobility. This is a literature forum--Great Literature abounds will tales of how very very much delight Fortune gets in systematically destroying romantic notions and delusional wannabe-nobles, often in the cruelest ways imaginable. Don't fall into this trap.

[Decision, what if you made the wrong one?]

My understanding is that it is not at all unknown for people in PhD programs in the sciences to leave their first school after the MS and move to a different one. Some depts will probably let you transfer in the coursework or credit you for having reached the master's level. (My own--humanities--dept will only accept transfer credit if you did indeed finish an M* in the previous program).

Do you think you can make it another year, continuing in your current program as you apply to different schools for the PhD? If your interests have diverged as radically from your current dept as you suggest, it should not be too difficult to obtain faculty support (and, therefore, the necessary LOR from your current school) for you switching to a more appropriate program.

I have absolutely no idea whether applying as a future-MS would get your application judged differently from others'; I suspect yes, but that's just a guess.

[South Bend, IN]

Short answer: yes.

There are usually multiple opportunities to take weekly salsa lessons on campus. There's also a ballroom dance school just a couple of miles from ND that offers salsa lessons and, I'm pretty sure, at least one night of open dancing a week. IIRC there is a club that has a weekly salsa night, but that is not really my scene, so I'm not sure how current that info is. South Bend is a backwater, but it's not *that* bad. You could try Googling something like "south bend salsa dancing" to see what comes up.

[Working full time, MA part time]

so you're saying 1st semester grades mean diddly?

Well...as long as lousy (think B+) grades don't become a *trend*, my department, at least, will overlook an uneven first semester in terms of whether you can stay in the program. They are really, really not forgiving after that, though.

GPA often figures into grant applications, though, and unfortunately first semester most definitely counts there. /sigh. Also, if you are unfunded or underfunded and trying to *earn* funding, you will want to do well from the beginning.

And finally: this is true for PhD students, or for master's students who are specifically planning on NOT going on for a doctorate. Multiple B+s in graduate level work are a Very Bad Thing for PhD apps.

[The Guardian: Why You Shouldn't Do Postgrad]

Yeah, I apologize for setting up a false dichotomy between fun-not-in-grad-school and contentment-in-grad-school. To nuance it a bit more, I would clarify that there is fun to be had in both; the difference (for many of us here, I think) is that there is a contentment in academic pursuits that is much, much harder to achieve on another path.

Of course, whether that contentment is primarily because Dude, this is the awesomest book ever! or mainly because you think pursuing further education makes you one of the "elite" (...what world do you live in and can I move there?), is a different question. (Hopefully it goes without saying that 99% of us here are motivated mainly by the first?)

[Working full time, MA part time]

1. Do you have funding? If so (and maybe in any case, but especially if you have funding), you NEED to clear any outside work with your department. Many/most programs strictly prohibit students from taking on additional employment except in special cases through the university. (Hence, of course, the popularity of off-the-books tutoring)

2. I highly, *highly* suggest that if you do intend to pick up a part-time job, you wait at least until the first semester is over. The adjustment to being a graduate student--and I differentiate here between that and simply taking one or two graduate-level classes--can be pretty rough. It is as much adjusting to a new institutional culture and new codes of behavior as it is to the workload, honestly. (Otherwise why would my PhD program, where just about all of us come in with one or more M*s, write off everyone's first-semester grades?)

[Serious Medical Issues in Grad School]

FWIW, my experience is that individual faculty members have been pretty accomodating (for health problems deemed both "physical" and "mental", which is an important social distinction if not really a medical one) as long as I am able to continue schoolwork. So, for example, when med side effects mean I am 20 minutes late to class because I can't walk in a straight line, much less make it safely to campus, it hasn't been a problem. And nobody said a word to me about skipping out on required departmental obligations last year when I was trying to get a grip on severe depression.

But at the same time, I've seen our medical leave policy, and it's *really* stingy. I don't know what would happen if my health crashed (on any front) and I wound up in need of a 2+ month hospitalization again. I am almost done with coursework so hopefully that will cease to be a concern on that front...

For everyone posting on or reading this thread, let me put in my ongoing plug for checking to see if the counseling center at your school offers a grad student support group. The one here last spring saved my sanity and probably my academic career. I am not wild about the counseling center's policies for individual appointments (they are very stingy in terms of #/allowed visits before they consider you a problem child and make you go off campus, which BTW the grad student health insurance policy LOVES to cover, dontcha know), but the support group was its own animal, and it was amazing.

Oh, ugh, our health insurance...it's so depressing when you can't go to the specialist you NEED because their LOWEST price for a visit is above the maximum your insurance will subsidize part of.

[Questions to Ask]

- Percentage of students who successfully complete the program, i.e. earn their PhD.

- TA/teaching responsibilities--what years do you teach; will you have the chance to teach basic comp; will you have the chance to design and teach your own course.

- Opportunities for interdisciplinary work (if applicable to you), including whether you can get program credit for relevant coursework in another discipline.

- Chances for formal secondary language training.

- Job placement/completion broken down by subfield if possible.

- How your POI's most recent graduated advisees do on the job market.

- How many advisees your POI currently has (it's tough if they are swamped with students, but a good sign in terms of working with them; no or few advisees might point to someone impossible to work with OR an advisor with little power in the department=>no say on admissions--or it could just mean a rare subfield).

- Library resources, both ones already available AND the dept's budget for or say in future acquisitions.

- Grad student workspace (cubicles, closets, shared cubicles, shared closets...this should probably not be the make-or-break decision but it can help indicate things like how much pull the dept has with the university, how important the grad program is to the dept, etc).