ChristoWitch87

Absolutely ask about what the department and POI value in prospective applicants, and what you can do to maximize that.
Some programs are sticklers for language - they want them done before you enter. Others want a modern done, and you’ll pick up the second before comps. A number of modern programs, though not at top schools, don’t really seem to care. By that I mean they don’t require any evidence of language before entering and from students I’ve met at AAR, they don’t require any before you go.
My department largely doesn’t care for those of us in modern. I came in being pretty decent in Latin and Czech (odd professional sidetrack - I was raised Moravian and wanted to work at the intersection of Moravian and American religious history but a number of faculty already in the area confirmed that it’d be career suicide Due to being unemployable because I’d be too specialized).
 
I did a couple group sessions of French and German translations for reading proficiency and was asked to go and take the translation exams. I’m 100% my work was garbage but it was also stupid easy - could use a digital dictionary and we had four hours to translate a 500 word chunk of text. I essentially went through and translated the major words, and using context clues placed them in an order that made sense.
Never got notification of Pass/Fail. I asked my advisor and he said I was marked as satisfied the second I stepped into the exam room. The department doesn’t require language exams for modern fields but the university says they have to - so you show up, they mark you done, you move on.

Hi there,
 
These are good questions to be thinking of at this stage. Here’s an article that I found useful when I was preparing to apply for PhD programs:
 
https://theprofessorisin.com/2011/07/25/how-to-write-an-email-to-a-potential-ph-d-advisor/
 
Hope it helps, and best of luck.

Yes, it's fine to ask them about 'improving chances,' but frame it differently: just ask them what, to their mind, makes a competitive applicant; this way you don't convey any sense that you think to have an advantage just because you are speaking with said person. For what's it's worth, I don't think these kinds of conversations are worth much, besides getting an idea of a) is that person able to take a student the cycle you are applying and b) does said person still study/research the things you think they do (some folks change their research interests radically, and their online/publication data has not yet caught up). Also, talk to said person's current/recent grad students about the program/what makes a competitive applicant (i.e. look at their backgrounds); this is a far better idea of what you will be up against when you apply than whatever guarded advice said adviser is willing to give up to you.

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Honestly, masters level HDS admissions seem to be a crap-shoot. A fair number of folks seem to get in with a 3.0 and an interesting story. Others have been dinged with decent numbers (3.7/4, 166/162/4.5... not bitter ?).
I speculate that they evaluate applicants based on intent. For example if someone applies saying they want to get a doctorate in biblical studies, normal metrics such as GPA probably carry more weight. But if you have some sort of ministry/social justice bent it's probably more case by case. Unlike the rest of the graduate school world, rankings dont matter much in divinity school, so they are not beholden to a strict admissions formula like law and business.
That said, I second that you should take the GRE if you can do well. It would help negate your low GPA.

Re above, while I completely agree, this may be off-putting to the professor. But you should ask current graduate students at said school about this. Again, we should hope that all advisers would care about the mental well-being of their students, but the reality, at least from my experience, is that most academics have never had to think much about it and I suspect that some even think it is completely outside their role as adviser/mentor. If that is a deal breaker for you, then fair enough, many others will happily--or unhappily as the case may be--pretend as if their advisers have no bearing on their mental health. Again, speak to the graduate students. They/we are easy to read.

That's not really something I can answer.
So many applicants with a MTS went somewhere like Duke, Yale, Harvard, etc and were able to cater their coursework to their specific field. That's a lot harder to do with a MDiv.
It's why the MST (one year post-MDiv degree, some schools call it something else) is popular. My professional advice, unless you've already got a solid application and (ideally) the MST is at the same institution you did your MDiv and it's a Top Five school - they're a waste of time. You just can't build the rapport with faculty there for it to mean anything and often your grades for your first semester won't post to a transcript before evaluation.
If you're going to do the MDiv, being encouraged to do a second M* is becoming more common. Doing a second M* after a MTS is also becoming more common, just at a slower pace. If you're doing something language heavy and you didn't also do it in undergrad (i.e., Biblical Studies), you're going to do 2-3 M* degrees. I'm exaggerating on the Biblical Studies front but not by a lot.
Go with the degree that feels right at the time. Damn near all institutions allow students to swap between degrees with permission of their advisor and by signing a piece of paper - that's it. Often, barring a denominational scholarship or something, your aid tends to come with you too. We don't advertise this but we're not looking to lock students into a life they've learned isn't for them.

I think the GREs are most important for folks with low GPAs (to alleviate doubts about academic potential) and who convey commitment to using the MTS as a stepping stone to the Ph.D (to convey promise for future doctoral admissions). I speculate social justice/NGO/lay ministry types are evaluated more on what they have done and what they can contribute to the incoming class than numbers.

Union Theological Seminary also allows its M.Div students to specialize in Buddhism and Interreligious Engagement.
https://utsnyc.edu/life/institutes/buddhism-program/
 

Learn to accept criticism. The poster you replied to was just being honest. You're attitude won't do you any favours. I also worked 40+ hours per week while taking more than a full course load, and I have better grades than you. Instead of blaming your life circumstances, look towards what you can do to succeed. Your GRE scores seem to suggest that your grades are in line with your ability rather than some unrealized potential. If hope that you can re-take the GRE, do great and prove me wrong. Your ability to get into a good program will depend on it. But for now, you should be looking inward to figure out whether you are actually cut out for a life in academia.

This 110%. Schools sift through hundreds of applications to find what amounts to the 2-10 best students to give fully funded offers to. Why on earth should they care about someone's work status during prior degrees when they are committing hundreds of thousands of dollars in stipend aid to one candidate per specialty?

Were these PhD programs literally in these schools' respective Philosophy Department or was it a focus in philosophy but in the Theology/Religious Studies Department?
If they were actual philosophy departments, you made a costly error. Philosophy departments have a noted bias against people coming over from theology, even more so without a M.A. in Philosophy. Getting accepted into a philosophy program is rather difficult - there's been a resurgence of interest, so most schools have seen an uptick in applicants - coupled with schools generally cutting funded Humanities spots to divert funds to STEM. Also, five schools is, IMO, simply not enough for someone with your stats. When you look at Verbal and Quant scores for successful applicants to philosophy, you're much more likely to see 163+ in both fields and W of 5+. Is your GPA undergrad or grad? A 3.5 from grad school, particularly from Brite, won't be cutting you any favors.
If you made any discussions about reading philosophy and political theory between the ages of 14-18, delete that shit from any Personal Statement you use next time. 1) No one cares, 2) There's 0% chance you understood it in such a way that would be meaningful in a grad program, 3) It gives people the wrong idea of you / it's the wrong kind of bragging.

The first four schools I listed were philosophy departments, the fifth was UVA's religious studies department. I preferred philosophy programs to theology/RS programs this application cycle at the recommendation of my thesis advisor who admittedly got her PhD in the 80s/90s, and probably doesn't have the best grasp on the current state of grad admissions in other disciplines. I see now there's no real point in applying to PhDs outside of theology/RS no matter how interdisciplinary my work so far has been.
You don't have to point out to me my grades and gre aren't exceptional, I'm well aware bud. I've regularly worked 40+ hours while taking 15+ class hours, I don't have the same grades as someone who has mommy and daddy's money to sit on and I've made peace with it. Also, the number of schools I applied to had more to do with how few departments are working on the intersection of continental philosophy and religion than anything else.
I didn't include comments about my high school education in my statements of purpose, but I do applaud you for reading my post just to find a way to be condescending at every turn, and then not actually answer my question.
 

@wilsonrg With all due respect, xypathos is not only very respected on the board, but moreover and to the more germane point, his response provided answers that were spot on and lucid. Perhaps it was not in the tone or inflection you desired, they were nonetheless entirely accurate. A tad bit of advice and counsel, the academy is a long arduous road, filled with much more disappointment than success, and if this blunt but totally on point assessment already rankles you, perhaps you need to rethink your attitude as you go down this incredibly long path....

I'm fine with you being upset with what I wrote. I could've sprinkled some sugar on it and beat around the bushes, but you need someone in your corner to tell you the hard truth. You clearly didn't have that someone this cycle.
I worked full-time in undergrad, as a line cook and pantry chef. Plenty of people before you, your classmates, and future students worked full-time and still slammed out high grades at probably every university in the US/world. You're nothing special there.
More than five schools work on continental philosophy and religion. That's just poor planning.
If you want to be in a competitive philosophy department you need a M.A. in their field. You can get in to a PhD program without an M.A., your chances are higher than 0% but not by much. If you haven't seen it yet, the PGR (Philosophical Gourmet Report) is considered the preeminent ranking system but it also has a fair share of detractors. Recently Brian Leiter (founder) stepped down from running it and that's for the better - they have a solid Advisory Board in place now. Dailynous.com is also a top site to learn about the field itself, what prof is moving where, where the leaders in the field think the next hot subfields will be, etc.
The people in the Philosophy forum here at GradCafe are far better equipped to handle philosophy questions. I can direct you to some funded M.A. options but they'll know even more. If you're wanting to do a PhD in Religious Studies (or Theology) with a focus in philosophy of religion, I can certainly help there.
My intent was not to hurt your feelings but to simply tell you the truth, nothing more, nothing less.
EDIT: Thanks for the kind words @Boolakanaka!

I have to say I was taken back by this rather sweeping generalization and conflation that because one works there is somehow a space to rationalize that less than stellar grades are not just OK, but somehow a curated outcome. Further, this assertion that folks who do have money or support are the ones that are leading the pack academically —that borders on a pithy trope—but moreover just not accurate,
Excuse me if I come off a tad tart or terse on this topic, but I’m a old school cat, well past the prime of life, (mid 50s) and for every degree I received, and there are many (BA, JD, LLM, MA) I always worked—there was just no way about going at it, than having to study and work at the same time. 
The struggle is real, but not uncommon or particularly rare just  to you young fella...

To come at it from another angle: I'd make sure that you're very clear about the specific area you want to study (for example, "theology and ethics" are probably two separate concentrated programs in most places), and why you need the 2-3 years of an MAR/MTS rather than doing a one-year STM/ThM/whatever they call it at different places, which is very typical for people who already have an MDiv.

If it hasn't been suggested yet, I would contact a couple of programs you might be interested in, and just explain your situation. Tell them the kind of research you want to do and see what they advice. I've been in two religious studies programs (my masters and PhD) who have religious folk or previously-very religious folk on their faculty. You don't get to be a religious studies professor without understanding the complexity of American religion, so I think you'll find them more understanding than you'd expect. Maybe seek out a professor or two who have both MDivs and MAs or PhDs
Good luck!

I agree that it will matter at the absolute highest levels of academia. That is to say, if OP is dead set on getting an M* from HDS, then a PhD from HDS, so he can teach religion at Harvard, then sure, an Ivy UG matters. But I think it affects the calculus the most for that last part; teaching at an Ivy. Getting into one for an M* it won't matter much, for a PhD it will matter a bit but more as a tie breaker. I think if an adcomm is looking for a guy for a PhD in NT, they will take the unknown UG with a good M* and 3 years of Greek all A's over an Ivy UG with less focused training. Now, are there some candidates who have all those things going for them? Sure, but for the reasons you posted not as many as we may think.

As an aside, I think the reasons for this phenomena are generational and socio-economic. I imagine the children of Ivy UGs (there are exceptions) probably grew up with more specific expectations in terms of profession and earnings. First generation college students tend to have a more untouched concept of the American Dream (get a degree and it will work out). I also think Ministry is for some people a way to change the paradigm of their family legacy. Military service, ministry, and to an extent law among a few other professions come with a fair amount of social capital that can help reverse negative generational trends. This and a more personal understanding of suffering probably explain the low and middle class, non-elite backgrounds of those in religious and ministerial vocations even at elite schools. 

If you were going for law or business, or even a field where direct from UG to PhD was normal I would be more willing to consider options B or C, but religion works different. Ministerial jobs are middle class for a lot more education than is normally required to be middle class. The process isn't as competitive and prestige-driven as other professional programs. Also the type of knowledge that you need to succeed in a religion PhD is so particular that you can do fine with an unknown UG if you have other factors going for you (learn languages!).
My Recommendation, as someone who went from Tier 2 state to YDS is this: enjoy the free ride, learn a language or two, volunteer or find a social justice niche, and go to a top Divinity School for your MTS/MAR. Your masters level training will be the main point of interest for PhD adcomms. Save your money now and break the bank on HDS/YDS/Chicago later.

Unless you are looking at a major leap up (to an Ivy or t20ish) the UG distinction won't matter much.

If you were going for law or business, or even a field where direct from UG to PhD was normal I would be more willing to consider options B or C, but religion works different. Ministerial jobs are middle class for a lot more education than is normally required to be middle class. The process isn't as competitive and prestige-driven as other professional programs. Also the type of knowledge that you need to succeed in a religion PhD is so particular that you can do fine with an unknown UG if you have other factors going for you (learn languages!).
My Recommendation, as someone who went from Tier 2 state to YDS is this: enjoy the free ride, learn a language or two, volunteer or find a social justice niche, and go to a top Divinity School for your MTS/MAR. Your masters level training will be the main point of interest for PhD adcomms. Save your money now and break the bank on HDS/YDS/Chicago later.

Unless you are looking at a major leap up (to an Ivy or t20ish) the UG distinction won't matter much.

Also, take up your prof's offer on independent studies; that is the stuff good LORs are made of.

Also, take up your prof's offer on independent studies; that is the stuff good LORs are made of.

If you were going for law or business, or even a field where direct from UG to PhD was normal I would be more willing to consider options B or C, but religion works different. Ministerial jobs are middle class for a lot more education than is normally required to be middle class. The process isn't as competitive and prestige-driven as other professional programs. Also the type of knowledge that you need to succeed in a religion PhD is so particular that you can do fine with an unknown UG if you have other factors going for you (learn languages!).
My Recommendation, as someone who went from Tier 2 state to YDS is this: enjoy the free ride, learn a language or two, volunteer or find a social justice niche, and go to a top Divinity School for your MTS/MAR. Your masters level training will be the main point of interest for PhD adcomms. Save your money now and break the bank on HDS/YDS/Chicago later.

Unless you are looking at a major leap up (to an Ivy or t20ish) the UG distinction won't matter much.