sacklunch

Please forgive me if I'm misinterpreting your post, but I gather that you're really saying the following:

(1) Professionally, you know you need an MDiv.
(2) Personally, you don't wanna.

Allow me, proud holder of an MA in historical theology and thus someone with no personal stake in promoting the idea of an MDiv, to sell you on the idea.

I heartily dispute the notion that an MDiv is necessarily academically less rigorous. At the school where I did my MA, the PhD students who were the most knowledgeable (in terms of texts read and theologians/religious movements studied) had MDivs from Duke and Vanderbilt. They weren't necessarily the smartest or the best writers (well, the dude from Vandy is one of the smartest guys I know, period...come to think of it, he is SDA ), but they were the most academically experienced. And we're talking about HT, so I observed this from patristics all the way through postmodern theo/contemporary phil of rel. I rather suspect it has more to do with the school and the specific program than with the letters that follow M in the degree. My understanding is that at Harvard, too, the MDiv is basically "MTS-plus." On the other hand, it *is* school dependent--I'm pretty sure that Notre Dame considers their MTS to be the more academic theology master's.

If you're unsure about the strength of a specific program, one thing to do might be to contact the school and find out what students do with the various degrees. Obviously you should expect that many MDiv students are simply uninterested in doctoral work, but if the program is strong there will be at least some students who caught the academic bug and were/were seen as well prepared enough for a PhD by top departments.

Your second main area of concern seems to be time. And I totally get that, especially seeing as you already have a degree in theology with some pastoral training! It's rather frustrating to see all the people on the English (especially) and history boards (as well as all the soc sci and physical sc) applying for PhD programs directly out of undergrad when religion throws this nice stumbling block of the de facto required master's degree in there. Your enthusiasm to get to that point, to get through the work, to get the prize degree is awesome and will be important in motivating you during grad work. Don't lose it. That said, graduate school, especially if you're looking at an eventual PhD, is an ultramarathon, not a sprint--or even a 5K. No, you don't want to be the perpetual student, always ABD, never a PhD--but you also need to be ready for when the "this is a four year program" turns out to be 6-7 years. (As a side note, I'm pretty sure that MA/MTS programs in the U.S. are generally 2 years full-time, not one. So it's only a one-year difference with the MDiv that you're talking about.)

The other consideration, which was absent from your post, is languages. Language training is an integral part of any theology graduate education (and successful PhD application. ) I don't know what your languages are like right now...probably you'd be okay applying for the M* without background, but most master's programs will require you to pick up at least one (more likely two? two is standard for M* in HT, but I don't know about systematics) for the degree. To be competitive for PhD programs, it's very useful to have a primary research language as well as secondary scholarship ones. (Can you even minor in OT without Hebrew? Biblical people, help me out on this one. I got nothing.)

You seem to be dreading the idea of a couple years as a pastor, less for the work itself (I don't think anyone would even make inroads in that directions unless s/he really did feel some vocational pull; it's a crazy hard calling) than for the time off academics. One thing you might consider is to be like the pastor from my church back home. Although he's not planning on doctoral work, his "hobby" is learning languages, usually by taking night classes at a local seminary. (It makes his sermons awesome.) That might be one way you could feel like your time as a pastor is contributing to future education in more tangible ways than just life experience.

That said: one of the smartest, quickest, most all-around awesome guys in the PhD program at my MA school had been an [evangelical denom] pastor for more than a decade before starting the PhD. He knew his stuff.

Marquette is stingy with money. Definitely look into Yale Div and the GTU (Berkeley consortium) as well. The GTU offered me a decent aid package for a master's, and they've got a broad range of programs and courses. Probably a little easier to get into than ND/Harvard/Duke, too. For Duke, if funding is an issue, you'll have a better shot applying to the MDiv (3 years, pastoral focus) instead of the MTS, as they fund more of their MDiv students. It's quite common for religion PhD students to come in with an MDiv as their master's degree (or one of their master's degrees)--that's why you'll see me use the expression "M*". Does Union Seminary have a master's program? What about Drew? (Just thinking about the faculty there; it seems like that would be up your alley).

I'm not really sure how to judge your background. I do know that your list is pretty much the most competitive religion master's depts out there. On the other hand, M* applicants in religion tend to have colorful pasts! (At the school where I did my MA, one of the PhD students had an MS in math and had been teaching high school/adjuncting college for ten years! I majored in poli sci and then worked as a short order cook. You can see why this did not last.) I suspect that a lot of it will come down to your SOP and writing sample, maybe LORs. (I really don't have much of a sense of how religion M* programs make admissions decisions. If I were on an admissions committee and received my own application of yesteryear, I would almost certainly reject it, but I got in everywhere I applied, so...)

Just my opinion, but I don't think HDS has a very strong ethics faculty. I'm not in ethics, but this has come down to me through a lot of fellow students who are ethicists (and looking at their courses they don't seem to have anywhere near the number we have). You might consider BC's MTS, since we have tons of ethics/systematics profs.

I applied to 10 schools and I think only one required an interview. Most likely you won't have to worry about it.

Your old crummy grades might hurt you for some of those reach schools, but honestly you have a good shot at several of your options if you submit a well polished SOP and writing sample.

Concerning languages, you will no doubt need French and German. Biblical languages will depend on what kind of ethics you want to pursue. You can worry about that when you get into a program. One of my good friends just graduated from my program (she did sexual ethics) and got into a funded PhD program without having really any languages (a little French).
good luck, mate.

It can't hurt to put on your application. Though I wouldn't focus on it too much if it doesn't pertain to your proposed area of study, ect.

I like academia and I'd like to be a professor, but the last thing I want is an academic wallpaper on my computer. Right now I have an Angry Birds theme for my computer. It makes me laugh and that's a de-stresser, which is what works for me.

I know a lot of people who are serious about their applications, but less interested in social networking, so they don't come to grad cafe. There are also a lot more people reading these forums than commenting on them, so I think it's hard to gauge. Either way, I think we're a self selected group here, and therefor can't be considered a microcosm of applicants as a whole.

While the OP didn't really flesh out what it means to "love Jesus," I think we all "got" what he/she meant. It might have been a generalization and imply that anyone outside the "evangelical" tradition does not, then, love Jesus. But I don't think the OP meant it that way.

Who cares? We know what he/she means. Give them advice, or leave the thread.

While the OP didn't really flesh out what it means to "love Jesus," I think we all "got" what he/she meant. It might have been a generalization and imply that anyone outside the "evangelical" tradition does not, then, love Jesus. But I don't think the OP meant it that way.

Who cares? We know what he/she means. Give them advice, or leave the thread.

While the OP didn't really flesh out what it means to "love Jesus," I think we all "got" what he/she meant. It might have been a generalization and imply that anyone outside the "evangelical" tradition does not, then, love Jesus. But I don't think the OP meant it that way.

Who cares? We know what he/she means. Give them advice, or leave the thread.

While the OP didn't really flesh out what it means to "love Jesus," I think we all "got" what he/she meant. It might have been a generalization and imply that anyone outside the "evangelical" tradition does not, then, love Jesus. But I don't think the OP meant it that way.

Who cares? We know what he/she means. Give them advice, or leave the thread.

Indeed, there are many ways to "love Jesus." That's why the OP asked the question bluntly in the post title--ever hear of a hook?--but then clarified in the post itself.

While it is true that evangelical Christianity in the U.S. has a pervasive, even dominant sexist and homophobic streak, it is equally true that (1) this is not true of all evangelicals, and (2) evangelicals by no means have a monopoly on misogyny and homophobia within Christianity, the academy, or American culture! (FFS.)

Nobody sees a problem with the way the heading question is formulated? WHat does it mean to love Jesus? I know many people that "love Jesus" and stand on oppossites sites of the political/religious spectrum. If you mean "I want to study with mysoginists, homophobes and left-wing scholars, that's fine. Just say so...

read the entirety of the introduction and conclusion to books carefully. read the entire introduction and conclusion to each chapter. then skim the meat of the chapter, reading the first and last sentence of every paragraph. that'll usually be enough.

if it's an article, you should read all of it.

I don't understand what students mean when they say they want to work in "industry" after they get out when they're asked "so what are your future goals and career aspirations?"


Basically it means they have no idea what the hell they're doing and they're just hoping, maybe even expecting, that there will be a job there for them waiting when they get out. Sorry, a PhD after your name doesn't mean there will be anything there after you graduate. Being honest with yourselves, how many of you are hiding out there in grad school really only because you have no idea what you want to do with the rest of your life, or because you didn't want to get a job, or because you couldn't find a job? I laugh every time I hear someone say they want to work in "industry" when they get out, that's like saying "i like food".

Hypnotoad--

It will depend upon the specific program you are in and the professors tasked with vetting your ability to fulfill the requirements.

In my experience as an Americanist, the requirement was two languages. I satisfied one with course work in statistics that I did at a different institution. I cleared the other hurdle by passing a course in the German department where the grad student teaching the class did a lot of winking.

From classmates who were doing work in different areas, I heard a lot of horror stories. These stories included exams being administered by a history professors who had a very high level of fluency in a given language, and a part of those exams being oral.

Something that I realized while studying the cognitive psychology behind skill development for my outside field, and from hearing of the experiences of class mates who took their emerging language skills on the road, there can be a HUGE difference between learning a language well enough to fulfill a requirement and knowing that language well enough to do archival research.

Therefore, my suggestion is that you have a very clear idea of your goals when you study foreign languages.

HTH

I have a decent amount of ancient languages now, but I remember when I first started college I tried out Spanish (took it in high school) just because it's what 'everyone' does. I hated it and I did poorly (dropped the course). When I started learning languages that applied directly to my research I started to actually enjoy learning/studying them. Perhaps you will discover something similar?

I wouldn't consider anyone in my classes to be a close friend. I can count on one hand all my closest friends - two are from undergrad and the rest are folks I met in high school. My one friend from undergrad was also in my major (the other one was in video production). I have friends in my class right now - two folks in my major and the same year as me I'd consider friends too.

But I don't really make friends that often anyway, so this isn't exactly a big surprise.

One application to rule them all....

One application to rule them all....

One application to rule them all....

Hello,

I am an African-American male and recent graduate from a well-respected school and I am applying this fall to History PhD programs! I majored in History related fields, completed theses on historical topics, took a few history courses, but I did not formally major in History. I have over a 3.8 in my majors and over a 3.6 overall GPA. I recently took the GRE and received a 620V and 670Q. I really want to attend either Harvard, Yale, Columbia or Princeton to study 19th U.S. history, more specifically during the Civil War era. I am interested in the way the Civil War impacted the African American woman's citizenship rights.

At Princeton, I really want to work with Tera Hunter. At Harvard, I really want to work with Annette Gordon-Reed/Higginbotham, At Yale, Edward Rugemer. At Columbia, Eric Foner.

Please give me some feedback!!!! Thanks

So are you saying that you didn't know that it would take 3 years to get the degree, how much tuition would cost, the financial aid situation (which sounds odd, how would you know you were eligible if the school wouldn't accept a FAFSA?), the classes you'd have to take, and that you'd have to maintain a certain grade in your classes before accepting the offer to go to this school? If this is the case then...wow, not sure that complaining is in order.

As for the not having a job thing, it doesn't matter if it's grad school or another arena, you will always see people who you don't think are as good as you advancing in ways that you might not think they deserve, but that doesn't effect your chances of moving up too, or at least it shouldn't, you could be amazing at what you do but if you don't get out there and present yourself in the best way possible it will never happen for you and all of the people who have crappier skills than you will be getting those jobs. I know first hand that's it's frustrating, everyone these days knows how hard it is to get a job and it's easy to fantasize that people who don't deserve the jobs are somehow stealing them from you, but that's really not the case.

Why would your major have to be set up so you can quit and comeback? Do mean like taking a semester off? I don't think that programs are designed to readily accommodate those who decide to quit in the middle of them. And if you withdrew from the program now are you saying that you would have to start from the very beginning if you decided to go back at some point? As in they wouldn't accept any of their own credits? That's even if you were accepted back, not sure how that works.

I'm sure everyone needs to vent and gripe about certain aspects of their programs every so often, but this seems like a serious dislike of the entire structure of what you're doing and a deep dissatisfaction with the institution you're doing it at. That won't change unless you make some serious changes in your mindset or life in general.

My school definitely has its share of things for me to be annoyed about. These include:

- Takes three years to get a MFA (seniors say we have to take on a doctorate-level workload for a master's degree)

- Financial aid office ignores all loan applications because they expect you to fill out their special little form (I was eligible for $20K in loans, but the school would not give it because it was a federal loan. Meaning you can only get private loans here)

- Amount of work. Program claims to be for working professionals, but I hardly got everything done and I don't even have a job.

- People who are not only master's upperclassmen, but who have real jobs in art who make mediocre final projects. How can these people have such crappy skills and get hired? I hate to sound arrogant, but I know my skills surpass some of my classmates' skills, so why don't I have a job?

- Just a rumor...due to working people being unable to meet deadlines, the school is allegedly not letting anyone who works full-time enroll. This does not effect me, but it seems unfair.

- Cost in general. $4700 per semester and $500 for two weeks of food?

- Worthless classes like art history. Methinks this is just the school's way of squeezing a few more thousands of dollars out of everyone each year.

- Need to have an average grade of at least a B in each course.

- My major is set up in such a way that you cannot quit and come back.


I know a lot of those are money issues, but hey, I don't have any money whatsoever. And when I can't get a loan, it becomes a big deal. What about you? What goes on at your school that you hate?

Sure.
UG - 1 year of attic Gk, 1 year of intermediate Koine Gk, .5 Gk Plato's Apology, .5 Gk John's Gospel
Grad - 1 year of intro bib. Hebrew, 1 year of Intermediate Hebrew, 1 year of Intro Latin, .5 Aramaic, summer German, .5 Graeca, .5 Greek Patrology

While the MBP looks more "awesome" and it seems to be made from better materials, the last models were pretty crap. The case warped, hardware crapped out, ect. I'm not saying the new ones will have the same problems, just saying historically the older ones were no more structurally sound than the regular Macbooks.

If it helps I'm a graduate assistant in my schools computer tech services. I deal with older/newer model macs, helping professors with software/hardware issues.

Like I said before, just get the Macbook. My .02.