Balatro

It's not HDS specific, it's a collection of factors that Adcoms consider on your application to graduate school - this specific list is geared to cover ALL graduate programs, in all fields/departments so its relevance is subjective and really varies from school to school. Like Wind said, Divinity Schools - even for their academic degrees (MTS), tend to rely more on "fit" than say a Masters program in sociology. Getting that acceptance becomes even more of a rang issue for MDiv applicants (regarding "fit") - while it's true that for some top schools they had acceptance rates hovering at about 50% (poor economies tend to result in more people in graduate school, I've heard the acceptance rate at places like HDS/YDS/etc has dropped to 30%'ish the past couple of years), while I was at YDS I ran across several students who were honest that their uGPA was sub-3.0 and of the ones that took the GRE, they scored in the 1000-1100 range without any real mindblowing awesome part of their app that stood out - yet the Adcoms decided they were an amazing fit. They also shared stories of their undergraduate student friends who applied to YDS, HDS, Duke, etc with 3.7+ GPAs, GREs in the 1400+ and yet were denied. But still, it goes without saying that if you meet or exceede the median stats for their student profile, you stand a far better chance than someone who is in the lower 25%. That said, you still stand a chance - half the job (if not more) of getting accepted into a school is selling yourself - Adcoms know their school is amazing, you're paying to apply, and if accepted, paying to attend. Spend some of your app telling them how you'll contribute to the school and make it a better community for everyone, show them what you have to offer and what unique experiences, points of view, etc that you have to contribute.

Things may have changed in the past two years but I've had my advisor and two professors (as well as "CM" from UVA) warn me against attending ND for my PhD as a Protestant. The talk of Duke looking to phase out/reduce their ThD program is talk I've noticed amongst Yale faculty and a current MDiv student at Duke who was looking at their ThD program and was advised to look elsewhere because the status of the program may change by then. No, I mean David Hart - he was UVA's orthodox theologian but was ultimately canned about two years ago, give or take, I believe. I'd read some student's blog that Milbank was canned for the same reason. Anyway, the point was more that UVA seems to have a reputation of hiring noted theologians who turn out to be poor teachers and are ultimately forced to go into private writing. It shouldn't be taken as a reflection of the school or anything, just something I noted down in my initial reply. Eugene Rogers at UNC-Greensboro (he works more in Queer Theology than anything else) is another person in the same boat - wonderful theologian and love his writing, and he agreed to let me sit in on a seminar when I was in Greensboro - terrible teacher but that's subjective, I know.

Here's what I can offer on this, for what it's worth - some of it is borrowed from my Bishop (PhD, Notre Dame) and conversations I've had over the years with professors when it comes to systematic/historical theology. #1 - Don't go to Notre Dame if you're a Protestant, you probably shouldn't go if you're Catholic either - I'm joking about the last point but ND use to be a powerfouse in theology, and while it's still a good school, it has fallen over the years. Burrell has been quoted in trying to sway students from ND, arguing that it just isn't the school it use to be and a better education can be had elsewhere. My Bishop did his PhD at ND and said the environment at ND toward Protestants was hostile in the PhD program, there's a student at Yale (at least I'm pretty sure he's still at Yale) who transferred from ND and had the same sentiments - the faculty and students are less than friendly to their Protestant neighbors. #2 - Duke is a good school, the problem is that anyone who wants to do theology applies there so the competition is incredibly stiff. Rumor has it that their ThD program has essentially failed, they tried to model it after Harvard's and its just never panned out for them nor attracted the caliber of students they were looking for. Does that mean the program is going to be chopped in the forseeable future? I don't know. #3 - Given Marquette's additions to the faculty over the years, I think they're going to be an amazing school in the next 5 years - now if only they could get their funding dilemma sorted out. #4 - GTU would probably be a great school given the consortium and breadth of faculty/courses/resources/etc. #5 - I love Claremont and its breadth of offerings and their theology program (they have a joint PhD Religion/MA Philosophy!) and would be honored to go there. That said, their financial aid is abyssmal. #6 - If you're okay with evangelical schools, Wheaton has a rather strong theology focus with a fairly impressive list of faculty. #7 - I really like the theology faculty at Union though most people tend to not think of Union for theology, I'd look at them if I were you. #8 - Vanderbilt has a solid faculty centered in theology too but as to my other posts regarding Vandy, they don't always take the usual evangelical/Catholic approach to theology. #9 - I've heard mixed things about UVA - great academic theologians but that they have a bad habit of hiring absolutely terrible teachers (David Hart being the classic example. I met him at a conference and I don't think I've met someone so abrasive in a looong time. He was speaking with a graduate student after her presentation and he mentioned he had read some of her material before, followed by "It's probably the most worthwhile thing you've ever written." I've heard from former UVA students, I'll admit its a rumor, but he was apparently pulled from his teaching position at the university because of his lack of teaching and social skills).

The LGBT feel you get from Vanderbilt is valid and well known and in fact, I'd say most of their PhDs coming out of Vandy have touched on LGBT concerns to some degree in their research. That's not necessarily a bad thing, even if you aren't particularly interested in "Queer Theology," it's just Vandy encourages their students to consider the minority's voice when doing their work so naturally Feminist Theology and Queer Theology are the first to come to mind. I was fortunate in that I had college friends attend all of the well known seminaries and we shared notes and stories - Vandy's MDiv students, imo, faired better academically and their wealth of knowledge, which for those looking for ministry positions will only help them. If I were to try and place Vandy on a spectrum, I'd say they're between Harvard and Yale. Yale has started down the path of -liberal theology whereas Harvard is pretty much already finished (My orthodox friends say that Harvard has abandoned Christianity all together and as such fails miserably in preparing people for ministry; I'd argue that they're setting out to redefine Christianity and religion for a modern world). Vany on the other hand is somewhere in between, they're big on minority voices and less than usual academic focuses but they still hold a level of tradition when it comes to training their students. I'd also agree that Vandy has worked hard to enforce the nondenominational culture of the school, even moving to make it illegal for school clubs to mandate that their officers be practionners of the faith or sign any form of a creed, etc. Basically, say there's Christian Group XYZ - Vandy has decided that those groups can't mandate that their officers or members actually be Christians, so in theory you could have an atheist, Muslim, etc running the group and vice versa. It should make for some interesting politics over the next year or two. ------------ Emory I hear is an amazing school (faculty, resources, getting into a PhD, etc) in a wonderful location. I'd agree that it's more moderate than Vandy, partially b/c of its location (the South) and also b/c Emory is generally more selective than places like Duke, particularly for its UMC students seeking ordination. That said, I can't name a single faculty member off the top of my head but maybe that's b/c it's still early and I'm not focusing and all too often I hear people picking Emory over their other acceptances for the sole purpose of money and not b/c of its faculty or resources - Emory is VERY liberal with their financial aid. It's not much but hopefully others will chime in with what they know of the schools. What are you looking to study?

I don't know anything about Pittsburgh so I'll defer on that one. Boston College is a Jesuit (Catholic) institution so their theology tends to lean in that direction but Jesuits also tend to be fairly liberal (at least by Catholic standards). You may want to look into Boston University - a historically United Methodist Church but they have since officially separated (but a lot of UMC people still make up their MDiv program). BU use to advertise their MDiv more and the fact that MLK did his PhD in systematic theology there but every time they do, it rehashes an old 1980's debacle when it was proven that MLK plagarized a significant portion of his dissertation (odd fact for you). PTS (Princeton) is moderate from what I've seen visiting an old college friend who attended there for his MDiv. There are quite a bit of liberals and conservative evangelicals but the issue I noticed is that those two groups were louder and drowned out the more populace moderates. Vanderbilt is a great UMC seminary but as pointed out above (by Windfish), they're big on Feminist and Queer Theology but still have a very powerful program. I'd say their graduates, academically, fair better than Candler. If you have the slightest interest in either topic, you'll be hard pressed to find a better faculty anywhere. Union Theological Seminary is one of the most liberal seminaries available and also big on Queer Theology. That said, it's a phenomenal school and with its attachment to Columbia University, you have a vast array of resources available to you. There are plenty of moderates, don't get me wrong but my gut feeling says that conservatives who enroll end up transferring out by summer. Claremont is a solid school, while I can't speak for their MDiv program, I do know that their financial aid for PhD students is terrible. As far as the spat between Claremont and UMC as pointed out by Windfish, it started over Claremont's desire to become a more secular school and lay the framework to begin training Imams and Rabbis. The UMC wasn't happy with this and feared that UMC students would suffer in their ministerial training due to Claremont spreading themselves too thin. So, the UMC threatened to withhold the $800,000 they give the school every year unless Claremont can show that the UMC students won't suffer as a result of their proposed changes. Claremont peddle-paddled around for months on it but eventually show the UMC how they would handle this proposed change (mainly by creating a separate college for the Muslims and Jews) and the UMC agreed that it was satisfactory and as a result, lifted the sanctions. Side note - as of the last talk I hard the Dean of the theology school make, Claremont is moving ahead with its plans to also open up a college(s) to train Buddhist and Hindus, so if they do it (and ALL of the colleges are successful), Claremont could prove to be quite the interesting school in the next decade or two.

Well, first off -- your decision not to pursue medicine further won't hurt you in the slightest but should you get called before an Admissions Committee (don't count on it, unless you're up for a presitigous scholarship, it's unlikely to happen) it's likely to come up so have something ready for that just in case. What classification of liberal are you using here? The political spectrum is considerably different from the theological one. There are theological conservatives who support equal (homosexual) rights and pro-choice and vice versa, so having an idea of what you mean by "Yale/Harvard might be too liberal" would help. I graduated from Yale in 2011 and I'd say most of the students were liberal in a Jeffersonian sort of way, while still supporting marriage equality and minority/women's rights (a professor pounded it into a bunch of our heads that it's important for the Church to be pro-life but also pro-women's rights and that it's possible to be both so I always catch myself trying to be careful with word choice here) but realizing the importance of scripture without throwing the baby out with the bathwater (unlike places like Harvard - I kid, sort of). Most of the places on your list are solid choices, I would make some alterations though if you're headed down the path with the UMC (especially if your intention really is on mainstream theology) though - drop the following: Fuller Regent (I assume you mean the one founded by Pat Robertson?) Notre Dame (their MDiv, I believe, is Roman Catholic only) Gordon-Conwell Wheaton (The UMC is moving more and more to an inclusive state with the LGBT community, which Wheaton, as I recall, is considered the most unfriendly college for. I would imagine that despite its Methodist past, Wheaton is to the Methodist what Nashotah is to the Episcopalians) Your current background in theology/religious studies is perfectly fine as is - I had several professors and my advisor who suggested I take Intro to OT/NT and change my Religious Studies major to something else. Why? For the sole purpose that you'll still be required to take those courses in seminary. Plenty of my fellow students had little to no background in theology/RS and excelled at Yale and I know my close UG friends reported the same from Vanderbilt and PTS. Helping you narrow down the list more will require us knowing where you stand (currently) with regards to your own theology. Now, we don't need a list of positions you support and oppose but we do need more information. All of the schools you have listed (minus Harvard - sorry again) will prepare you for practical ministry and give you a solid base in academic theology to make you a better minister and leave the door open for academic theology should that bug bite. Also, the ideal seminary will be one that isn't in your comfort zone. Should you attend a place that is exactly where you theologically, you won't grow and your church (and you) will suffer for it. You need to make sure there is enough balance across the entire theological spectrum.

PM an admin about it. This was going on a little over a year ago as well and the admins looked into it, saw the person was flagrantly downgrading for no reason and were subsequently either banned/blocked (as the downgrading stopped literally overnight).

For the most part, I agree with LateAntique. There are no "general" PhD programs that I know of -- there are some quasi-general M* programs though which is something you should look at if you don't know what you want to get into. Don't worry so much about feeling like you need to know what you want to focus on for 4-6 years in a PhD program, going into the program. Most people do have an idea of what their research/dissertation/etc will be on it but few essentially already have it mapped out. While I was at Yale I met several PhD students who knew they wanted to focus on say "American religious history" (which is required to get into programs) but beyond that, that weren't settled on their dissertation yet. Some were tossing around various topics, others were very open that they had no desire to invest much time into considering a topic until later (generally Spring) of their 2nd year, etc. From your description it sounds like you want to teach World Religions and similiar general studies courses. Unfortunately more and more schools are outsourcing these classes to PhD students, Instructors who only have a M* degree, etc -- very few tenured faculty teach these courses (particularly in larger schools) since it's in all honesty, a waste of their time. Sure, some professors love teaching the Freshman courses but for the most part, it's grunt work passed down to students or instructors who will do it for the cheapest pay. If you are in fact looking to teach World Religions and similiar courses, I'd honestly suggest that you get your M* degree and look to teaching at the community college level or for for-profit schools. More and more schools (esp. community colleges) are also moving these classes to online and as such are generally open to telecommuting the work to instructors who live all over the world. I met a MDiv alumnus from Yale who does this very thing, he teaches World Religions and some other very general religion courses (Intro to NT/OT, etc) for 4-5 community colleges and makes a decent living from it.

Turns out my old advisor is on sabbatical and in an ability to focus on their writing is taking a "vacation from emails, texts, technology in general, etc" so I probably won't get a reply from them until some time in 2013 (late 2012). Anyway, I did get a reply from the American Theological Society Midwest Division. I've c/p relevant information below:

I've never noticed that about the ATS before, that's rather odd. I've emailed the Midwest Division and my former advisor (who is a member) to see if I can get more information on the organization and if they have some super secret website. I'll let you all know if I find something out or someone may beat me to the punch.

Yes, this is still true according to the people I know at the school currently. I can recall three MDiv students whom I got to know my first year at Yale that are now in their 4th year of a PhD at Claremont -- I know two of them are teaching still and the third was teaching but didn't this year as she recently had a child and took the year off for that. I also believe she's begun working on her dissertation and didn't want the stress of teaching/grading/etc while doing that. I had a philosophy professor in undergraduate who was a CGU graduate that said the school lined up teaching jobs for her, as it did for another philosophy student who is now teaching at UNC-Chapel Hill.

As far as I'm concerned and experienced myself, you're always welcome to change your mind. I found out about my Yale MDiv acceptance after Duke and had already paid Duke my deposit. When I found out about my acceptance to Yale I paid the deposit there and notified Duke that I had changed my mind and would not be attending - their reply email essentially said ok but that I would not recieve my deposit back which I had already expected. It, so far, has not affected me at all.

I was having lunch with my old advisor a couple of days ago and one of the more prominent OT scholars (YDS) came in and joined us. While him and I knew each other in passing (worked on some interfaith projects on/off campus), we didn't really know each other that well but still I asked him a question which I hope some here might want to shed some light on. Did God or Moses write the second set of Commandments? As far as the professor, he laughed and said the OT community is split pretty 50/50 on the subject. Some take Exodus 34 as another example of a long line of contradictions, some say the third "he" in 34:28 refers to God (rather than Moses) (Dr. ABC says it's a stretch to go that route since the Hebrew, 34:27, and NRSV (which he considers the most accurate of English translations), make it clear that it's referencing Moses). I asked about the notion of "divine posession" (God 'used' Moses) and he sort of shrugged and understandingly said he doesn't like using that route, it's too much of a cop out to try and shut an opposing opinion out (which I agree with). So -- while this debate will obviously go nowhere and solve nothing, I thought maybe I'd ask it here and get a friendly debate. Heck, I'm sure you guys (and gals) need something to distract you from running to your mailbox, spamming the refresh button on your email, and staring at the phone. Who, in your opinion, wrote the second set of commandments?

I wouldn't say I focused on it but I took several courses while at YDS focusing on Tibetan Buddhism and thoroughly loved it. Looking back I wish I had studied Tibetan or Sanskrit though to get a better appreciation of the subject. I fell in love with Lhasa and Kathmandu during undergraduate when a professor asked me to accompany him to those two cities for a summer - he was in the process of writing a comparative studies book on Judaism and Buddhism. He always suggested Naropa University to students looking to not only learn about Tibetan Buddhism but to also experience it in practice, particularly their MA w/ Language program - I looked at their list of graduates and what PhD programs they went into, pretty impressive: Oxford, Harvard, UCSB, and others. Anyway, off topic kind of to what you're enquiring about but wanted to drop in and share my experience.

Princeton University offers summer language courses solely designed for literacy purposes and passing Graduate School language exams. The program is well regarded and numerous universities will actually accept your grade from the course (assuming it's an A or in lieu of the actual exam. EDIT: I know this is super late but for any future passerbys.

Fair enough.

Getting into ND and having the full scholarship isn't that easy, unfortunately. You'll be required to submit a pre-application which the PGD uses to weed out people who aren't prepared or well suited for the program. If you survive the first round (which I think a good deal do), you'll move on to the next round which requires a recommendation from someone who can atest to your ministerial capabilities since afterall, ND really encourages MDiv's to go into ministry positions and not so much academic. Sure, several of their MDivs do move into the academic field and go on to a PhD or even stay on at ND to do a MTS but it's not the focus of the program nor is it incredibly common. They generally accept anywhere from 10-20 students a year and their applicants are generally very strong 1200'ish and 5.0 GRE with a 3.5-3.7 GPA. I didn't attend ND but from the (I think) 4 people I know who attended, they're very good at weeding out people who just simply don't belong in the program. Unfortunately from what you've written, I think you'll be one of those that don't make it. I mean that with the utmost respect but ND really pushes for students who have shown an active involvement and engagement with the Catholic Church and from what it sounds like, you'd probably have a hard time getting a strong ministerial recommendation letter.

Attridge is taking a year long sabbatical and will return to teaching at YDS in 2013 so no worries, he'll still be around.

Obviously I'm not privy to your financial situation but while I was there I used financial aid to pay housing. I know there was some shuffling around of policies my last year but I'd presume that this is still done.

Yea, BC is for obvious reasons heavy on the Catholics, BU heavy on the Methodist, HDS is hard to get a feel for sometimes but I ran into a lot of UUs and "religiously curious", PTS heavy on the Presbyterians, YDS with the Episcopalians, and Vandy with Methodist as well. They all lean one way or the other (some more obviously than others) but a good way to gauge a school's focus/interests is to look at the faculty and see what theologians they specialize in. It's not a catch all but it's a nice base to start with.

There's only one way to find out, really. You've really got nothing to lose and it might save you from having to reapply all over again next year. EDIT: People do get in at the last second, to address your primary concern.

I'm late to this topic but if you're really wanting to focus on languages and the study of classics in general, I'd recommend the UNC post-bac program. http://classics.unc....t-baccalaureate The faculty is wonderful at arranging a schedule that works for everyone. You'll also be in good company too, students studying it out of interest, to go into a PhD program, looking to become teachers, etc. They also provide post-bac students with full access to their resources, classes, libraries, regular lectures/discussions/lunches/etc. If you're out of state, the first year tuition will be rather steep at about 16.5k (for the year) but obtaining in-state residency for subsequent years is rather straight forward in NC. You should also check out: http://www.summer-classics.com/ They keep an updated list of colleges offering intensive summer language courses - Berkeley's is highly regarded and most students come out placing on exams at about the 1.5-2 year (3-4 semesters) mark.

It's unfortunate but all too common at CGU. Funding offers from them have run the full spectrum, 0% (literally) to 100% (though it's increasingly rarer for anything above 50%) but on the bright side, the department has amazing connections and can generally secure community college work by your 3rd year. Anyway, I think you made the right decision. Besides, I think Chicago has more to offer.

I stayed on campus my first year and highly reccomend it. They're quite close to the buildings you'll be having classes in and helps foster a sense of community with the other students. Many of nights I was up until 2-3AM discussing material and just general chit chat with fellow students (in and out of my classes). I moved off campus with some other students for the other two years.

Generally correct, I know several current and past MDiv students and while I obviously don't know all of them, I haven't encountered an MDiv student yet who wasn't given at least 50% funding.