EdNeuroGrl

1 contact the admissions/department and ask them it that is a hard cut off (your app won't even see the light of day) or a soft one where you have a chance. They will likely encourage you to apply anyway, but you may find a way to get them to reveal this info. 2 carefully and if possible talk to potential mentors about this. Don't just jump in cause you don't know what they're like or how they'll react but if they respond to a basic inquiry, you could tactfully ask if they felt that x experiences could compensate for a weakness in GPA.

First, there are a lot of reasons one might struggle as an undergrad that don't really reflect potential grad performance. Second, the skills needed to excel in grad school (e.g. writing skill, critical thought, resourcefulness) are not well aligned with undergrad (e.g testing skill, ability to decipher and recite) and so on. Now, as why someone who struggled in their undergraduate work wants to go on... that's pretty individualistic. For me, I want to do research, I am good at it. However I did struggle keeping my grades pretty for my undergraduate degree, there were several reasons for that. Changing majors, mental illness, deaths in the family... It was not because I didn't have the ability to develop the skills, I just hadn't developed them until my junior year... I did make it into a Master's program and frankly I am killing it grades-wise, nearly everything I am graded on is about critical thought, writing, project management... These are all skills I almost never got to use as an undergraduate. It is going to be different for everyone I suspect.

One thing that was news to me, that I learned just two weeks ago in a frank discussion with a Cognitive Neuroscientist at a top program, is that to get into one of the top labs you will need at least 2 years of experience doing work specifically in the area that aligns with the lab and you will need to show evidence in your application that you will be able to hit the ground running once they bring you on. For me, coming from an Education paradigm this is a bit ridiculous, but you should talk to a few people in the field who you would like to work with. See if you can find out exactly what they will be looking for in applicants. Personally, had I known that already being experienced in performing fMRI techniques would be something that I was EXPECTED to walk into a program knowing how to do already, I would have gotten my master's in engineering with a focus on imaging techniques rather than education... I want to do educational neuroscience, so it seemed to me that learning about education would be really important (hahaha). In any case, the expectation may be different for the area and labs you want to get into but my big piece of advice is to get into a lab doing the work you want to do NOW, or you will be looking at a Master's plus a couple years work-experience, before your application will be considered competitive. :-/ If I had known this when I was a sophomore undergraduate this would have saved me 4 - 6 years between my bachelor's degree and getting into a PhD program. Good luck :-)

I would suspect your prospects are going to be different depending on how you are wanting to be involved with these programs. Are you aiming to be an educator or a researcher? I am considering looking at 2E with respect to neuroscience at the moment and so the programs I am going to be looking into are going to be very different from someone who is doing curriculum development, and those will be entirely different from someone who wants to be an school psychologist, and even more different from someone who wants to develop specific individual education for gifted kids... It sounds a bit like you are interested in being a teacher for exceptional kids, so you should look into some special education departments and talk to professionals in the special education field about how they view gifted education, how schools are addressing the students' needs in the area, and where someone who is interested could look to get involved. When it comes to education in particular, a couple weeks helping out in a classroom will go a LONG way in helping you figure out what is going to work for you.

Oh also, are any of you 2016'ers gonna be at AERA next week?

That's kinda funny... I Ed Psy is going through a bit of an identity crisis as far as I can tell.... It is all the stuff that is concerned with how people learn that isn't covered by another area... as far as I can tell... it has a huge scope... I like it, but I also feel like I need to be in a department that is more supportive of branching into neuroscience... so far it seems like many academics in education feel threatened by people wanting to take a stab at combining the disciplines in some collaborative way... That could also just be my perception as I really didn't expect anything resembling opposition moving from special ed into ed psy... but that could be my department or just my view, not sure yet as there are so few of us that I haven't been able to corroborate or refute my own experiences. To Overflowing, POI can be program or person or professor otherwise you seem to have it down :-) Welcome! As for most of the people I talk to your chances are more about fit than they are about anything else. Find someone who is doing what you are or who is interested in similar questions and you could be good to go...

I considered doing my master's in SpEd but all the programs I could find were too much oriented toward licensure and not toward research into SpEd.... Which is how I ended up in Ed Psych. :-)

The sequester?

That would be soooo frustrating. I will be doing Bio Stats next semester and it is offered through the Stats department, soooo... I am not expecting it to be like that but I would be furious if that were to happen. I am in a program where the graduate students who come in have never taken a stats course at all, which blows my mind since this is a stats heavy field... *facepalm* Anyway, I came into my master's program with literally all my stats classes done (though not through the courses offered within the department)... so I've been continuing my study through the statistics and psychology departments. Some are not thrilled about it, but *shrug*... In any case, I know that biology majors do not really look at stats at all until they hit grad school, so it doesn't surprise me if it were offered through a Biology department that they would start so basic... However if it is a grad biostats course through the math/stats department I'd throw a pretty serious fit.

I hear you on that one... I don't mind being older, but the disappointment and frustration gets to me far more than I'd like to admit.

Thank you this actually did a lot to improve my mood. I don't typically have any challenges in being more aggressive about research in general because that is kind of the point, you know discomfirmation and argumentation and the like. Traditions and all. :-) I always have a bit more of a challenge going in and being more confrontational about more social/professional types of things, I never quite feel like I am doing it the right way and I am overwhelmed with fear that me showing anger or aggression in front of superiors is going to get me cut off entirely (oh yeah I carry some emotional baggage there). I've put the TED Talks you linked to on my playlist. I always love them and perhaps they will help me walk that line a bit better.

Must vent. I was admitted to a master's program last summer early July-ish, and I was thrilled. I was admitted and paired with a professor who was an expert in the skills that I applied to the program so I could develop. So, the week before school started, I get a notice that this professor took a job elsewhere. I am told by those who know these things the departure was amicable and while sudden was for legitimate reasons. I get reassigned to someone who is the kindest person and very sweet, but is aligned to research philosophy in the exact opposite way I am. I have dealt thus far because I managed to take up with a visiting professor and we've been getting TONS of work done! It has been great! This professor is of course taking a full time position out of state in the summer. So, since I am not part of a "lab group" and this is a pretty disjointed group I am pretty much back to being an undergraduate who is doing advanced course work... wouldn't be terrible, but it is neither what I signed up for nor the model under which ANYONE in the department claims to work. Really, none of the other professors will give me the time of day, and when they do they forget about my appointments or just don't show up to their offices. I have been getting involved in student government and making the best of things, I am trying to develop systems where students who follow me do not get stuck in this sort of situation particularly feeling isolated without resources. I am good at that, making the best of things, just pushing through. That is literally what I've done my whole life. Not even joking, I feel like I'm always getting pushed to the side or forgotten about. I volunteer for things and try to get in the fray but I am passed over, I have no idea why.... I get wherever I need to go through sheer tenacity and by just always being ready to do, learn, or figure out things by myself. I actually got a resource set up and a discussion forum all set up and running and full of good stuff, almost a month later a faculty member comes to me and says "we should talk about this ...blah blah... this other graduate student is getting a department blog set up." This is a thing she has been setting up all semester... and it is still not a cohesive method of two way communication... erg *sofrustrating* I mean no one has asked me to take it down and I think the concern is technical so I don't think it is MAJOR problem, we will see... but damn I have volunteered for all sorts of things I have asked the aforementioned grad student if I could help her etc... I have skills that when used produce brilliant projects, I am a wonderful tutor I can facilitate and coordinate, I can create and build! I need to use these things I WANT to use them to help people... I am venting because WTF it is damn improbable that I get the short end every time. And I am talking about things that keep happening that really could not have been planned. I'll survive I know I will make it to where I need to eventually, but can you just imagine, with what I can get done on my own, what kinds of amazing things I could do if I had someone who already knew the ropes helping me? I am sick of being ignored because I can be ignored. I have been told it may be because people know I'll get by. That's crap if you ask me... I'm sorry "too busy to fulfill my side of this agreement is just not a good excuse." *sigh* I'll just be over in the corner by myself kicking ass even though you can't give me the time of day... So, how do I adopt a "squeeky wheel" attitude without being a dick? 'cause just asking for help with this hasn't worked so far.

"It all just boils down to the fact that I am on a silly, idealistic mission to fix the world." Isn't this a unifying characteristic we all share? I mean we are all in education after all Welcome outgoingintrovert! "I guess my biggest worry is that I won't be accepted into a PhD program without a Masters degree first. Any thoughts on this? Some of the programs I'm looking into specifically state that a Masters degree is not necessary to be admitted to the PhD. I'm mostly looking into schools on the west coast FYI." I hear you on that concern. I had a big problem with this (hence my being mid masters) and I have some thoughts for sure... First you are waaaay more competitive than I was and as long as you prep well for your GRES and have a solid SOP you'll likely be gold. Second, I am usually competing against psychology and neuroscience students rather than just education students so the get noticed bar is much higher. In education it seems to me those who go for a master's fall in a handful of general situations. The big one is that they are trying for a certification of some sort so they can teach. Another is that they want to go into educational research but their interests are still very broad and require focusing down. Some have spent a long time away from academia and need to get used to the saddle again first. In education I have met very few other master's students who want to do PhD but need a Masters in order to be a competitive applicant. A big thing that will help you if you're aiming at a research career is to get in on a few more research presentations.

I would agree if you are working on a thesis track rather than a comps track... However, since application season starts Fall 2015 it shouldn't be too much in your way of getting your thesis done... you could pull it off, especially if you worked on your GRE's this summer rather than putting them off till the last minute. If you know you are wanting to do research and get into a PhD program then you should go for it... If you don't make it or if you don't try you're going to have to find something to do with yourself for a whole year either way so you may as well try :-) I would say, as a general rule of thumb, yes. PhD in education at least, carries with it the assumption that you intend to be doing research of some sort. There are some exceptions, and particularly with smaller programs, there is less of an expectation that you come in knowing exactly what you want to research. The bigger and more well-known programs will base much of their admission decision on your potential as a researcher... I don't think that is much of a departure from the UK programs... BTW welcome to the insanely-early thread ;-)

I suspect that most of my work will be with kids in the US, and ethnicity distribution will likely depend on where-ever the imaging gets done. I think there is a lot to be learned from both typically developing kids as well as those with known cognitive differences. :-) I hope that answers your question, I'm not positive which direction you were going with the question.

So are you making any consideration of doing a more substance/abuse focus in psychology directly? One of my profs has a background in education but she is in the Psych department and does alcoholism and addiction research. It is quite interesting. Students with LD's commonly have some sort of maladaptive behaviors and emotional responses, although, this has been really poorly studied in adult/college students. It would be an interesting way to go, have you considered special education research? It may be a good space for this topic :-) Also it sounds like your background would fit really well into Exercise Science type research :-) As for myself, in the perfect world where I get to do exactly what I want to do... I want to learn about how people (and brains) learn formal math, to clarify, I want to understand how the requisite naive-skills (number sense, spatial reasoning, verbal ability) interact with educational processes (both in school and social [friends/family]) to result in a person who can use formal mathematics to solve problems. To add to that, I want to study both typical and atypical developmental processes. In the mean time, for grad school/doing a PhD, I will be more than happy to study the methods and skills that I will need to get into doing the above.

So is it MrSmithUT? 'cause when I first read it I read MrsMithut... LOL Just curious ;-) What are your specific research interests? What do you mean the "biospychosocial aspects of education" In the College of Ed here we have a lot of people into exercise science and they do all sorts of biological measures along with motivation interventions etc... anything like that? What are you doing your master's in? Also Pearl what sort of advocacy do you have in mind? I have a bit of background in Special Ed so when I hear advocacy I think of disability advocates who help navigate IEP meetings and the like.

Thanks Pearl! Since it is just the two of us so far; what do you plan on doing with your PhD? It sounds like you are interested in teaching adults, since I've focused heavily on research I don't really have any feel for what your target is. :-)

I am glad to hear that. I am only going by what I've been told by various people. It seemed rather impractical to me, but at the same time I've heard both sides from more than one prof in the field. I've certainly felt like I was under a similar pressure as a tenure-track prof to get things out and moving, but I've also had difficulty getting straight answers out of people...

Here! :-) Been through this circus before, gonna do it this round with some social support. I want to go into Educational Neuroscience, so my options for grad schools are pretty limited... On the other hand, I've got options with regards to mathematics instruction etc. I'm 30 but it's been a long road to get where I'm at and to find what I wanted to do with my life. My undergrad record isn't the greatest (GPA 3.36, got an associates in vet technology, then changed my bachelors major 3 or 4 times) but since I discovered a big empty space intersecting education, psychology, and neuroscience I've been pushing to get into that gap, cause it is amazing! My GRE's are pretty okay v161/q157/w5.5 and I'm more than willing to do whatever it takes to get into research. Went through 2 application years right out of my undergrad and it went poorly, that combined with ending up in a lab with a mentor who thought giving feedback of any sort was unethical (not joking here, very Skinnerian), and I decided to take a couple years off and attempt a 9 to 5 like everyone else. This got to be problematic as I need to be working on meaningful projects and exercising my intellect on challenging problems.... Anyway, got into my master's program and haven't looked back... Currently working on my Master's in Ed Psych with at minor in Statistics (and killing it all (in a good way)) also running 2 projects and working on a manuscript now, have one project that my name is on in the data analysis phase... It is so hard to be succinct on a SOP, cover my bases, and show off my research potential *sigh* Pearl31 I wish you tons of luck and success! Look forward to seeing you around these parts over the next year or so :-)

I have gotten the impression from a number of Neuroscience programs that unless you have one or two pubs to your name you will not be a competitive applicant. Then again I have seen people get in without any pubs even to very good programs... Personally, I will be banking pretty hard on having a number of them (first and second authorship) somewhere in the submissions process being good enough, but one never knows. I also have the added challenge of getting into a highly interdisciplinary area that not too many people are working in just now, so finding that perfect fit is an uphill battle.

That's a rough situation... When I was getting rejection letters the second go round one of the Prof's I worked with told me I should consider getting a Master's degree first. This may be the way for you. Also not sure what field you're wanting to go into but if you can volunteer some of your time in a research lab and get your name on some publishable work you will be able to help your situation in two ways. First it will augment your academic experiences and demonstrate you are dedicated to the field. Second, if you work with some current academics for free and do GOOD work for them, you will get letters from them.