EdNeuroGrl

You may want to start/cross post this thread in the Education forum. You're more likely to get answers. ABA is a good way to go for a fairly secure employment prospect. You will need to go through a College of Education somewhere. The requirement vary A LOT from program to program and few require any psychology courses. Education programs prefer that grad students take their own education focused courses. For GRE preference that is going to depend on the school. In general they prefer that you have an okay quant score because educational research does have a quantitative component, however depending on the school they may not really care much. There are a lot of ABA online programs and if what you want is to take a certificate and work in a special education/school setting this may be something for you to seriously consider. If you are wanting to do ABA for a more clinical setting (e.g. autism specialties, or counseling <- which is often its own grad program that can incorporate ABA). Many of your questions are going to be school-dependent so you will need to actually talk to people in the field who are working in the area that you want to work. There is so much variability in education by university, by program, and even by state and school district that it is really hard to make generalizations. For the ABA programs specifically, go look up the course requirements for a few programs, see if there are some similar trends. And for sure, the people in the Education forum are going to at very least know what you are talking about and may be more helpful. :-)

I've set a deadline of Oct 30 for myself. Everything is due December or January, but November is going to be a cluster f*** for me academically so I am doing the scramble to get everything in now!

The CV is the standard for academia. It should focus on your academic self. This includes conferences you attended and presented at, courses/workshops you've taught, internships, informal as well as formal experiences, honors/honor societies, participation in leadership, etc etc This is how you highlight what a successful and well-rounded academic you're shaping up to be. Look at some profs and grad students in the field. The resume often just has work history, volunteer history, education, and skills... It is quite different from a CV and unless it is required for an application, I would skip it. For me at least, there is nothing that my resume might offer than my CV doesn't deal with in a better more approachable way.

I second the above. There is no good safety school. I have a prof from my undergrad institution who would be willing to take me on, BUT the research fit is terrible. She would support me in my interests, but I'd have to do everything (including get funding for MRI level research) as well as some how forge a lot of collaborative relationships that wouldn't be there. These are things I CAN do but frankly, I want to spend my PhD work in an environment where I can be learning and being around people who care about what I do. I've already spent too much time having my research interests "tolerated" because I do high quality work. So... programs fit or they do not, you have the opportunity to do your work or not. Your safest school is going to be one with a close match, with good funding, and bonus points for getting the PI to like you before you apply. That last one you don't have a bunch of control over so... The best way to get rejected is to apply to schools based on rank alone. If there is no match and the PI's don't think you would be successful in their program, either because you don't have the same interests or it is clear you aren't considering anything but rank... you don't stand much chance. :-/ I am treating prestige as a tie breaker IF I get MULTIPLE offers and if all other factors are equivalent. So it doesn't even enter into my consideration until much later.

The first time I took the GRE my quant was below the 40th percentile... I retook it and improved up to a 157. I did two things. First I didn't insist on getting my disability accommodations (which is a GIANT headache with ETS) the first time around. The second time around I got accommodations (which took me no less than 3 months to get approval for). Second, I took a GRE prep course. I feel like it helped a lot because the class gave me tons of strategies for decoding the questions and making smart decisions even if I couldn't find the answer directly. My verbal score stayed the same though... So depending on the situation, it can be helpful to study hard and retake, but it may not be either... it seems like mid-october is cutting it a little close though... so you may want to consider your time frame too.

This may have been said already in different words but I would consider this a red flag. A caveat is expected in a LOR, but usually it is one that is in some way a strength or something quirky, not something that will make the addcom think maybe you aren't ready for grad school.... Another consideration is that "academically mature" is far from "practically mature" It sounds to me like you are getting this feedback from more than one person. So maybe you should consider it. The FIRST TWO times I applied for PhD programs I was summarily shut down (no follow-ups no interviews nothing), had letter-writers that were great, but ultimately I had NO idea what I was getting myself into. I also didn't have any idea what the grad school thing was really about. My research interests were pretty unrefined and I was entirely out of touch. I then took two years off of academia to work (I should have really pushed for a job as an RA or other sciency-worker type so I could work AND get some pubs out) and what I came back with was a fairly solid knowledge of what is right for me. What sort of work I can do and what sort I can't. I also grew a LOT there are parts of me that I would have never developed if I went straight from undergrad to a grad program. After those two years I couldn't stand the lack of intellectual engagement that I was working under in my job and I knew for certain that I needed to be doing research and academia for my career. I applied to a master's program and got in. That decision was because after looking at the profiles of grad students getting into programs I was planning on applying to, I noticed they either had 4 or 5 pubs or a master's degree. So for me to be competitive I needed more than a bachelors. Have you looked at some of the CV's of the students going into programs you are planning to apply for? Ultimately, your recommenders may be saying in some subtle sub-text-y way is that they will back your decision but they really think you won't be competitive enough right NOW. In a number of fields it has become so common for students to take a year or two off to work as an RA or other position associated with research that unless the undergrad has independent research experience and publications, they don't really have a chance. This hasn't gotten into social sciences just yet, but as frustrating as it sounds your prof is correct, the VAST majority of undergrad seniors are completely unprepared in a social-emotional (making decisions that will impact the rest of my life) sense to deal with what is required of them in graduate school. Another thing to consider is context. I've done a bunch of work in education, and a number of the individuals who I have worked with are cross-overs with education and anthropology. These folks really are not going to be persuaded by an applicant who doesn't have hands-on teaching experience in addition to research experience, and it is a really utilitarian decision. People who don't have SOME experience in the challenges of teaching and the challenges of research have literally no clue what they are getting into and are going to be unequipped to handle the problems that the field is currently dealing with. If you are getting this from a few fronts then you may want to SERIOUSLY consider it. OR perhaps, apply to grad programs, but also start looking for (and volunteering your time) labs that, given a couple months of you working with them, might hire you on if you don't get into any programs. I hope this is helpful, is it at all possible to ask the person if they think it is something about you specifically or if it is something that they'd say to all undergrads going straight for grad school?

This if for Developmental Psychology and my undergraduate was in Biology, Psychology, and Special Ed. My Master's was in Educational Psychology. It is hard to tell what sort of COURSE requirements are needed for the PhD as the program literally just describes the dissertation process. However, I looked through the courses offered in the Psychology department and I've already taken the equivalent of 80% of them... So I'm not worried at all about coursework. Really, how competitive is the OTS? I really like the idea and there's a damn high pay off, but I would hate for it to be the main reason to sacrifice some flexibility with regards to time. On the other hand, I think it would be entirely feasible for me to get my PhD in 4 years. I have gone above and beyond in my master's and since I finished all my cores in 2 semesters I've been able to take a bunch of psychology and neuroscience courses. So, I feel like I would be entirely ready to hit the ground running and jump in on comps and a lit-review to get my dissertation going. If you are admitted as a master's student you get 2 years of funding, then if you are admitted as a PhD you get 4 more. I'm not entirely sure that the PI is encouraging either way. I do not think I will be admitted with any defficiencies. As I mentioned above I've taken all but maybe 3 of the courses offered by the Psychology department on the graduate level (their equivalents at my institution that is). I know in psych one of the big concerns in new grad students is their ability to handle the statistics and quantitative work, I've taken all of the available quant grad courses offered in the education and the psychology department and a handful from our math department. Ultimately the only advanced stats courses I haven't taken in multi-level modeling and time-series analysis. The PhD's put out by my program seldom have as much quant background as I've managed for my master's. There are a few places I can apply for external funding and if I can manage some nice chunks of funding perhaps I can toss it in savings and be able to fund my own 5th year... not sure, but I'm not so worried about needing the time. The PI has been advising students for 10 years now and only one of them has needed an extra year... so on my end and his that 5th year seems like a low enough probability that it may not be much worth worrying about... *shrug* ----------------- After all that discussion I'm kinda leaning to the PhD option... ___________________ Again, tangentially, Jay's Brain, you're at Western right? How do you like it?

I agree with gaillardsghost above and would like to add that you may be best off getting a second bachelors in an education related area. While this may seem like a pain, there are a few advantages. First, most teaching-oriented bachelors will include a good deal of teaching-methods and practical experience that will really help you with the first 3 years attrition rates. Second, if after that you really feel like you need to get a master's then you (ideally) will have a MUCH better GPA to be applying with as well as evidence that you know what you're getting yourself into regarding the education field. What have you been doing in the interim 5 years? Often, places will be less strict on the GPA requirement if you have some experience to show that you can do the work. Alternately, you might try an online program or taking a couple university course as a non-degree student to demonstrate your ability to do well in courses. If you have a weakness the best way to get around it is to demonstrate that it won't hold you back in the future. Finally, email some of the programs you are interested in, explain your situation, and ask them what their suggestions would be. :-)

Research says your smartness likely has nothing to do with it: https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/01/29/carol-dweck-mindset/

So, tangentially... I am being offered the choice of applying to a MSc program or a PhD program. I have talked to both the department administration and the PI of the lab I am applying to. Both are somewhat ambivalent. The department admin told me it would be up to the PI. The PI told me that it would be up to me and gave me a little perspective and he seemed mostly to focus on funding. This IS a Canadian university (Western), so I'm hoping I'm not overlooking anything. I will be finishing my M.A. in the spring at a US university. It isn't a thesis based program, but I have a LOT of research experience which was the concern I had. The PI saw my research experience so he was not concerned about me starting as a master's student for that reason. He mentioned that if I decided to apply as a master's student and then wanted to switch to PhD they could do that easily, without doing a thesis etc. And the major drawback to applying as a PhD student is that I would get a maximum of 4 years of funding. I am leaning towards the MSc to go in because it seems like there would be more flexibility... since going into a masters wouldn't actually necessarily result in more time on the degree I'm not sure if there are factors I'm not considering. Let me know your thoughts, and thanks a TON in advance!

So far so good, though Western hasn't even made their applications available "mid-October" hasn't arrived yet

That is a very very bad idea

I second the above. It often turns out to be not about you at all. It is really unfortunate that students who are doing their best get caught in this sort of crossfire. One thing that I have made a habit of doing, regardless of the project is to make sure everyone who is collaborating on the project is on the same page. In the above case I may have gone to the other members to get more feedback. I have also often had to ask mentors to please be as harsh as they can with their feedback when I ask for it. This is a personal decision because I have been known to miss the subtle hints people make about all sorts of things, so I try to set up times where I have encouraged people giving me feedback to be very blunt and critical. I see it as an opportunity to change before the final presentation. I know that most people are hesitant to be critical to spare others feelings, but I do what I can to front-load the processes so the final product is something everyone is happier with. I know that strategy isn't going to be useful for all advisers nor with all students (my guess is that not too many people are quite as skilled as myself at missing the point), but it is how I try to prevent this sort of thing. As a fan of being direct (which isn't good for everyone) I would strongly consider asking my adviser for feedback on how you could have prepared better. Bear in mind that you'd need to frame it as a looking forward to help you do better in the future, not in a way that sounds like you are ruminating or complaining about what happened. And some profs would really dislike a student doing this so... something to consider carefully before actually doing. As rising_star said, however, it is entirely possible that nothing you would have done differently would have actually changed how it played out.

If I need to get lots of writing done I usually end up at the university library...

Also, it is never too early to be thinking out what your plan is. The sooner you start planning, the more options you can consider, the more time you have to prepare. One thing that is common in the education field is that a person gets a teaching certificate with the bachelors in education-something... for you it sounds like going into somewhere in educational specialties may be a good track. Being fluent in sign language can be helpful in a practical sense, however for grad studies, unless you are doing research in an area where that's a primary focus it may or may not give you an edge. IF the reason you know sign language aligns with what you want to do then it may give you an admissions edge, but I'm not sure it is something to build an application around. As for what to pursue, consider what you want to do. There are a number of degrees you can get a bachelors in while also trying to learn a teaching certificate... depends on your state/country. If you are considering getting a teaching licensure, you should talk to the undergrad advisers in your college, and also talk to them about pursuing grad school. And get in contact with some of the researchers in Ed and SLP and talk to them about their opinions on the matter. :-) Hope that helps!

Hi all, sorry for the delay. I have added us all to a message group here and created a shared google docs folder. Since privacy is a concern I have only shared the link with people responding to the thread and I ask that you all do not share it further. You all should have a message in your inbox with the rest of the details.

Anxiety!!!!! My vent is all about the anxiety. I've been through this process twice before, and then had to take a 2 year break from academia to be sure this is what I wanted to do (and b/c I didn't know how to get an RA position in a relevant field *facepalm*). To be honest I didn't even know they existed 2 years ago. This whole thing has been me figuring out what the heck I should be doing because I seem to have trouble finding people who can help me figure it out. I have had mentors of a sort but they are always just far enough removed from what I want to be doing that their advice has turned out to be not helpful at all (and sometimes completely wrong). Only in the past 5 months have I found people willing to talk to me about what I want to do and how I want to do it. Certainly no one who knows me well enough to write me letters or critique my application, but... on the bright side am SOOOO much better off than the first 2 times around, but I am simply terrified that I STILL won't get a chance. I just don't have the money to blow on all of these applications for another year. My cards have been maxed out from the past application seasons and I'm over my head in student debt and frankly my department has no money to spend on master's students. IF I get interviews, they will be literally my last dimes spent on this. And, ultimately, I am still just kinda fumbling around in the dark. I would kill for a mentor who understood the field and could show me the ropes, but to get one of those I need to be accepted into a PhD program... Uck another catch 22 ya know?

I can't really say much about your specific prospects HOWEVER, if you are looking to talk with people in your interest areas, I suggest you find the labs that you are interested and email the current grad students/RA's/post-docs :-)

Thanks for the reply CJMSW... I wish there was a clear answer out there. I'm not even that concerned about explaining my undergrad performance anymore, but since it is so important I'm still a bit hung up on the justification. My current plan is to see if I can get a wonderful SoP without talking about it. If I can then I'm good to go, if I can't then I'll consider working it in.

I have done this with a few current students and gotten some really valuable responses. They are generally much more open and willing to share than the PI's and I've gotten one or two who are actually sort of "cheering me on". Not that they are involved in the decision per se, but it certainly can't hurt. Usually what I want to know from current students and post docs has to do with the PI's mentoring style and the community/department feel. I am in an area where it can be hard to tell how much collaboration is ACTUALLY happening between education and neuroscience, and it is REALLY important for me to get into a program that has these departments with good relationships and open lines of communication. The current students can be invaluable for figuring this out.

If your goal is graduate study in Psychology, with an end goal of doing research you'd be banking on being admitted with an entire bachelor's degree worth of "deficiencies". Usually the deficiencies allowable are minor and something that can be dealt with in a short amount of time. There are a few options as I see it: 1. Community college for core science courses (physics, biology, chemistry, math/statistics), university for 2nd bachelors (psych core courses) 2. University for second bachelors 3. Master's in psych through a professional/online program. This isn't the BEST option but it is more of a forward direction for you. 4. Go the Educational Psychology Route... they will be more likely to admit you with these deficiencies and give you Master's Terminal options. In fact it isn't that odd to have Master's students in educational psychology coming in with zero stats and a humanities or education background (i.e. no psychology at all). And you might be plesantly surprised here because motivation theory, mindset, and decision making are fairly robust areas of study in the education field. All of these are going to cost you a decent chunk of money The problem you will face when you come down to grad-school applications is that you will be approaching with no background and no research experience. If you look at the most important things in what will decide a committee it is not just match, but demonstrating that you know what you are getting yourself into. Where you are now, you are miles and miles behind your fellow applicants. Sorry to be such a downer for you, but it is a really difficult field to get into as a graduate student with a full background and very high marks across the board. Everything is going to be stacked against you as you stand now. :-/ BIG NOTE NOT TO BE IGNORED: If you want to do research, I am assuming that you do, you will need to be getting research experience. You need to get in with a lab ASAP. If you can find/email your local university professors and ask them if they could use a volunteer in their lab (explain your situation and your desire to get some experience doing research). You may have to be somewhat tenacious to get into one, but your chances of getting into a research track grad program with no research experience is pretty poor.

bhr that is understandable, I'll send out a message to everyone in a couple days and we can work out the details. :-)

Also, the first time I took my GRE I took it without disability accommodations. My Quant score was terrible (40th percentile)... I went in and went to war with ETS about it and eventually threw enough litigious language around about the American's with Disabilities Act, that they granted me limited testing accommodations. This brought my Quant score up remarkably. I don't know where you are coming from, but if you happen to need testing accommodations, you should start now, because ETS will make it as difficult as possible.