randompsychologist

Taking some time off is a good idea, but you should get a research job and stay in the academy while doing it. I would start looking for structured post-bac research opportunities or just go around and look for lab manager positions. Have a plan before you do your year off. My year off became two years off and my research suffered because I started taking on teaching positions which sucked all my time (and all my compassion...lol!). If you can secure a TA gig to try your hand at teaching it may not be too bad either but do not become an adjunct. It's a trap!

@ coffee_maniac do you have any research experience? I know people with good research experience, clinical experience, strong coursework, and good fit with PI (basically BEST possible scenario) get in straight out of a BA. One of these people actually had to try more than once. If I were you, I wouldn't go for an MA because you have good grades (I regret my path a little... at the end I felt like I was taking the same course work over and over again). Maybe get a research job? But that may not be an option if you don't have good research experience... those jobs can be pretty competitive. In clinical programs (PhD) research matters more than clinical work. As long as you have some clinical stuff to show, it will help your app more to show that you have research. If I were you, I'd take a gap year. At this very moment, I'd go find something I enjoy and join a lab. Apply to the Hot Metal Bridge program at Pittsburgh or some similar post-bac program before applying. Also, learn to deal with rejection and be okay with applying multiple times. Clinical is hard but you can do it!

@obf314 Good luck! My interests are kinda similar (neural mechanisms of emotion, cognitive control, and their distortions in mood disorders). I'm basically your psychopathalogical cousin . No tips but how much you want to bet we may be applying to the same places? You're way ahead though because I'm still adding/removing schools to my list today (Oct 30th). I'm having trouble finding 8 places where I have perfect fit. I wish I were less indecisive. So, at this point I have a snowball's chance in hell because I am so scattered/unfocused. @Neurotic I think you should apply anyway. The worst that could happen is that you get rejected and then you work on the MA. It will also help you learn the application process and get you through application anxiety. The MA helps you start from a blank slate of sorts and its great because you already have a relationship and are already engaged in research. You won't have lost research time as a result of a "warm up" period. Maybe also consider post-bac programs or paid research positions if money's an issue? Maybe try some other MAs? I have a friend who is boosting a bad GPA with a funded MA program... they may be out there. He's really happy but is not in neurocognition. He's a social guy getting a quant degree. I'm thinking of applying to 8 (maybe 9) PhDs, 2 MAs, and a post-bac program. I have an MA in general Psych that came with my BA/MA but I'm now considering an MA in Quantitative Psych as plan B in case I don't get in anywhere. I think the statistical training I'll get in a program will be awesome regardless of what ever I decide to do after. I'm really nervous because I don't have much neuroimaging experience (but I have lots of experience with behavioral stuff). I'm starting to wonder now if I should be applying to more but I can't even begin to think of more places with good fit . I hate this process--it's crazy making.

Ok. I disappeared for a while, but I needed to tell you guys what I did after posting this. So, I decided I'm delaying another year, because I need the break mentally after my totally unnecessary 5th year for a degree I didn't really need and because I had some problems in my family that made the first half of this semester near impossible. That, and I'm a chicken . This semester I'm a TA for an Intro class (that I LIKE) and an instructor for a stats class (that I LOVE) and I've covered a few sessions of 2 other courses (a seminar on environmental psychology, and a developmental class). I got a lot of diverse teaching experience. I'm not doing any research right now. I might teach next semester and join a new lab. I have a decent amount of research experience but I've never worked with ERPs and I've always wanted to. The good thing is, though, now that I have the time and not as much pressure, I'm actually researching schools, I took the psych GRE in October and got my scores back (it was good news!), and I've started studying for the general GREs so I can retake them, and writing an SOP. The problem now is that I have an extra gap year next year that I don't know what I want to do with yet (the 2013-2014 academic year). For the most part, it seems like it worked out. I want to be sane and not burnt out when I start and I don't want to end up in a program that I hate because I picked programs haphazardly. But then I see the people around me in programs and go... that could have been me but it isn't. I need to learn to get over that. For those of you who plucked up the courage to do this cycle, I wanted to wish you GOOD LUCK! I'll be lurking on these boards a lot more because I have nothing better to do and I have a lot of questions. Every time I come here I am amazed at your stories/credentials and I'm sure a lot of you will have success.

Thank you for starting this thread. I've lost many sleepless nights over this issue. For me the fear is that TT jobs are far and few between. Academia is what I really, really, really want to do, but it would comfort me to know that there are other options out there than becoming the perpetual adjunct in the case that I don't get to where I really want to go. I'm doing the adjunct thing now. It was fun for this first semester, but I WILL NOT let this become my life. I witnessed a job search effort and it scared me to death (and I don't go to an tier 1 school... not by a long-shot). It's good to know that there are industry jobs out there. I assume many others who ask this question are probably in the same boat as I am?

Thanks... I like this suggestion.

Thank you! Yeah, I was procrastinating when I wrote up that essay ... pheonixx... totally agree. And, Engali, I second that! Good luck to everyone as we start applications

I second that! It sucked though that my MA thesis was not as promising So, three presentations no publications for me after my BA/MA

That was my exact thought. They're not paying me enough to overhaul my wardrobe

Dear Ruminare... thank you for the link to your series!!! I'm trying to teach myself SAS and then, eventually, R. For SPSS I used this book (http://www.amazon.com/dp/1847879071/?tag=hyprod-20&hvadid=15473431659&hvpos=1o1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2097698287976950686&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&ref=asc_df_1847879071) by Andy Field when starting out. This book is good for things not covered in the other book (http://www.amazon.com/SPSS-Introductory-Intermediate-Statistics-Interpretation/dp/0415880475/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1345407764&sr=1-1&keywords=intermediate+statistics+spss).

I'm just starting this thread because I see how much I am dragging my feet. I've put this off for two years now... I HAVE to do it. I've gotten to a point where I'm doing all the things I would do if I were in a doctoral program, but I'm not getting any closer to that PhD . Anyone else here have trouble starting? Maybe we can motivate each other to get our acts together? Happy (almost) new semester everyone! Good luck with school and the next application cycle.

I am procrastinating on finishing up my revisions for my masters thesis. So, I'm writing this up as a sort of "warm up" to help me get started on that . Just warning you, this is going to be long-winded... So, I want a PhD in neurocognitive or cognitive psychology because: 1) I was made to be a psychologist. I may not be as articulate as I want to be here... but here it goes-- As a preteen, for all my science fair projects leaned in the direction of psychology (one year I remember trying to test my classmates' mood at different times during the year to examine the mood- weather relationship). The first time I seriously became interested in neuroscience/psychology I was in middle school or so-- my cousin had just committed suicide at the time and I was looking for answers (especially because I had been having suicidal thoughts for a couple of years before her death...which is scary because I wasn't even 13 yet). It was easier for me to accept the fact that she was ill if I had physical "proof" that her brain (and mine) was different. I also grew up with a schizophrenic grandmother. She used to tell me that there were angels who were talking to her and that her thoughts were being recorded... I always wanted to know what she saw. This was about the age when I started feeling guilty for how I had treated her when I was younger (at this point I may have been a bit older ... like 14/15). I also have a bipolar uncle who, at the time, kept trying to kill himself every few months (actually when I was seven-ish, he once told my mom he wanted to speak with me, and then told me that he was going to kill himself... yeah, it's f*cked up). All this combined with my own manic and depressive episodes I frequently questioned reality when I was my normal self. The fact that physical changes in the brain could create these differences in the intangible...I believed that I could have all the answers to my questions about my reality, and my illness if I could understand the brain This lead me to... 2) As a result of experiences during my preteen/teen years I gradually became an atheist, but my first research methods/experimental psychology class was a religious experience. That sounds over the top, but research is the only means by which I can answer the questions I have about my mental life: psychology is my religion. Training to become a better researcher helps me make sense of my meaningless world. So, I want a PhD to become a better researcher. 3) I enjoy debating and creating experimental designs to answer the many, many questions I have about different aspects of human cognition...and I tend to find questions everywhere. I have been known to spend weeks on literature reviews based on something I disagreed with in a random NYT article and then create hypothetical designs based on what I've found. I already do it for free-- I think it's high time I get paid for it. A PhD program will pay me for it. I also want the ability to turn my hypothetical designs into actual research... I can't do that without the independence a TT job will get me or the training I will receive as a doctoral student and a post-doc fellow. That's why I want a PhD in psychology. I have a passion for research in psychology and would have little credibility without a PhD. I will not be able to secure the grant money I may want for what ever I want to do in the future and I don't want to be dependent on other faculty members forever. A PhD and a TT job will give me the freedom to do what I want in terms of research... I guess that's my real answer. Now, if only I were allowed to be this truthful in a personal statement... Also, being called "Dr." is kind of cool... but it's not like people in our field call each other doctor... so "meh." And, to my family, I'll never be a "real" doctor because I will not have an MD (but f*ck them).

Yup... that about sums my worst nightmare--

Meh... that's crazy! Is that just something they are doing in clinical? I should find out...

That is a good point. If I am serious about applying for this cycle, I need to compile my list of schools, start contacting POIs and recommenders, and writting a personal statement NOW. Sigh... I really, really have to think about this and make a decision soon That extra year is starting to sound better. I can't believe you defended your thesis and then moved in a week. That's insane!

Hey Undecided86, I am actually in the same place as you are--I have a traditional psych background and am interested in experimental cognition but I am now really looking into neurocognition and I asked myself the same question a few months ago. So, I'll just tell you a bit about what I have been told. I second 3point14 on trying to take more biopsych-type classes and some of my professors have suggested a computer science class or two. I don't think you're at a disadvantage because of your major-- I know traditional psych students who end up in neurocognition doctoral programs. I know a professor at Duke who does neurocognition work who told me that he is actually okay with taking students with a strong experimental psychology background. So I guess this would boil down to the research experience on your CV. Do you have a cognitive psych background that is apparent in your research? If so, you may be more prepared that you think you are. Regardless, volunteer in a lab that uses neuroimaging methods and is investigating questions you find interesting. I think, in the end, the research experience is going to be more important than the course work.

I don't know. I was always under the impression that a clinical license is a clinical license is a clinical license. But, if geriatric psychology is what you're interested in, go for it! If I were interested in that field, I would apply to these programs, and neuroclinical/clinical programs that have people you are interested in working with in the field of aging on faculty. I didn't think that there would be any real difference between being in a regular clinical program where you work with lots of people interested in aging and a clinical gerophychology program. I don't think it will limit you in the future after you graduate. The thing is, though, if you realize you no longer like doing research on older people while you're in grad school, you may have trouble if they are adamant that your adviser needs to be in the geropsychology concentration. Find out how the school is about switching concentrations while you're there and/or how much they are into collaborative research. You will still end up with a PhD and a clinical license--the coursework may be a bit different... but the things you learn in grad school usually come from research and not course work. I'm not a PhD student yet and I'm not into clinical, but take this with a grain of salt.

Congrats on the improvement--that is drastic and you worked HARD to do that. First, the short answer-- yes... I would retake it especially given that schools don't have to see all your scores anymore thanks to the ScoreSelect option TakeruK just talked about. Unfortunately, the GRE is one of those weed out things at some places, and it is hard to get in the door without good scores. I was told 1200 (in the old format) was sort of an unoffical cut off but atleast a 1350 is what you would want to shoot for. I don't know how true that is so ask around. With the new scores, I have no idea what they're doing. Now the longer answer: I don't see you listing considerable research experience as one of the things going for you, and are you 19 now (that is young!)? Personally... I would hold off on applying to PhD programs and apply to masters programs right now and maybe not take the GREs right away. Your scores should get you into MA programs. You have so much time and so much potential. I have been told by some of my clinically inclined friends that they had a harder time getting into clinical programs if they tried straight out of undergrad (even at 22) partially because clinical programs like having older students. For example, at an interview at Northwestern that my friend was at a few months ago, the only two bits of information the interviewers had in front of them were the GRE scores and the DOB. So, take some time off or get a masters, find your field of interest, do some research in your field of interest, go to conferences to present and make connections, do some more internship work, teach, and take some time to smell the roses . Also, connections matter so find out what you are interested in and start hanging out with those people! Apply to MA programs to work with people you like. I recently went to a lab dinner of a well-known researcher in my field, and almost all of the clinical PhD students he selected for the next cohort were either his own undergrad students or his former students' students. Obviously he trained his students well (I don't think students who impressed him would have had trouble getting in anywhere else) but, their connections were also extremely helpful. So take the GREs again... just not right away, and don't go straight to the PhD. Good luck!

Meh... I just went out to dinner with my high school friends... one is going off to Equador for two years before going to med school. I don't know, that sort of gave me the push to go for it.

I agree with the above poster. As an undergrad I interned at a day treatment center where many of the students from our MHC program interned for their licensing hours. Everyone I met there was burned out within six months but, that might just be the nature of the places where one must intern. It is hard. Is there any way you will be able to go into private practice after you've established yourself? The population is so different and the populations you work with make all the difference! I sort of agree with the poster above who said something like it is wrong to not want to work with difficult patients... however, I can understand why you would want to and even need to-- it is hard to work with the most difficult patients and, see that you are not getting through to them, see how s*itty and broken the mental health system is, see how the living conditions that result from poor eduction and poverty will cancel out almost any good you try to do in the lives of your patients, see that those who need the care the most (e.g. the patient with schizophrenia who ends up homeless because he/she can no longer work due to their illness and cannot advocate for him/herself because he/she is ill) is also the least likely to get care, see how screwed up administration in such places are because no one is being paid well enough to stick around and spend all their time making sure that things get done, see such high turnover among the staff that the just at the moment clients begin to find themselves attached to a staff member that member leaves, etc. I can go on and on and on. This internship is one of the other reasons I am not in counceling psych/clinical psych. The inequalities in the system were just too much for me to handle, the level of burn out is something I cannot deal with, and the fact that the thing that separated my bipolar self from the clients I worked with was the fact that I came from a middle class background, I lived in a safe neighborhood, and I had a chance at a great education. Sorry... didn't mean to rant, but I think you should definately check out other options if you are feeling burnt out. You do not have to work in such places for the rest of your career. Look into private practice or see if there is any way you can work with a rich/more privilaged group. I feel wrong saying this and it is against my values and it may be against yours. However, you should know that working in a place where things actually seem to work... and patients have more going for them...will help you retain your sanity. Just as you should never try to put an oxygen mask on someone before you fit your own on a rapidly depressurizing plane, you can't work to the point of burn out and expect to help anyone. And as someone else said, yes, $50,000 is a good salary in some parts of the country. But in those parts of the country, you will probably not make 50k. Good luck.... just take time to think things through.

*heart attack* your stats are crazy... I have no more faith in the system if you had trouble.

I agree with delaying applying in your situation. Your first semester will be stressful and you won't have the connections yet so there may not be a point in applying. Have you considered teaching after the MA? At my school, MA students can become teaching assistants. If you have teaching experience before you graduate, you may be able to teach after you graduate? However, job availability may be heavily dependent on your department's situation-- ask students who have recently graduated from your program when you get the chance.

Please excuse the typos....I'm doing this on an iPad...

I apologize for the following long-winded post....I really need to vent. I'm finishing up a BA/MA at a CUNY school in general psychology. I have a good GPA (overall: 3.93 and major: 3.97) and lots of research experience (3+ years in one lab and 3 posters on which I am first author). However, I also have bad GRE scores (M: 670 and V:570) and the research experience that I have is not a perfect fit for what I want to do in grad school. I want to do work on sleep and cognition and am thinking about cognition/neuro cognition programs. But I do not have experience in an actual sleep lab and I have not worked with any neuro imaging methods AT ALL....everything I've done so far has been on behavioral data. Starting next month I will work in a lab that does a lot of work with ERPs, fMRIs and TMS. Also, the lab I have been in for the past three years will start doing actual sleep deprivation stuff. Finally, I know that there is a fellowship that will give me experience with PSGs next summer. If not, I can seek out that kind of training later this year. So, this gap year should help me get better research experience that will make me more competitive for the programs I am interested in. I will also be either a TA or an instructor depending on what positions are available in the dept for next semester...I should know next week. Now, I am wondering if it is a good idea to hold off on applying to PhD programs for a year, in effect, giving me two gap years instead of the one I had planned on before. This way I have stronger letters and some more relavent research experience. I have spoken to some of the labs i am interested in and they told me that they do not take people who do not have experience with PSGs, so, I would be at a disadvantage. But, some of my professors have told meto just apply. Last year, I did not apply because I thought I would be more ready this year. I also said the same thing the year before. I am afraid that I am just making excuses and now I'm afraid that I might never go into a doctoral program. Does anyone else feel this way? Has anyone else been through this before? Also, do you think it is a bad idea for me to apply to 5 programs I really, really want to go to (sort of like "pipe dream" schools/labs) this year? And hold off on "really" applying next year? So, if by some miracle I get in, I'll go and I will get the experience of going through the process. Will I be at a disadvantage if I apply to a lab in the next application if I am already rejected this cycle?

Nope, still haven't heard back. I just sent them another email last night. I am sure that either I didn't get in and they forgot to tell me or that they have me on some wait list . Part of me just wants to know so that I can start making plans.