Rant: Personal appearance and the sciences

[LadyL]

I am a neuroscience/psychology applicant, but I always have and probably always will look more like an art student. I am started to get frustrated with the bias against caring about one's appearance that seems to be prevalent in the sciences.

My style is colorful and vintage inspired, somewhere between fashionable and slightly eccentric. I realize simply from interacting with academics at work all day that putting effort into ones appearance is somewhat unusual. The vast majority of my female colleagues either look like they stepped out of the Ann Taylor/Talbots catalog (at best) or are ready to go on a nice 10 mile hike (at worst). I stick out because I wear makeup, heels, dresses, more than one primary color at a time, etc.

I have been seriously toning it down for interviews - plain, straight hair, little to no makeup, soft neutral color palette, classic tailored pieces like blazers, etc. I don't want my appearance to distract from me as a candidate. As much as it would be more fun to wear a 40s suit with a hat and gloves, I don't think my flair for vintage textiles really belongs on display while interviewing in the Biology department.

And then after all this careful consideration of what impression I want to make, I show up to interviews and half the other candidates are either in jeans, wrinkled khakis, sneakers, sporting ungroomed stubble, or wearing their hair in a messy unbrushed bun. And no one seems to bat an eye.

And it makes me sad. I am sad that as scientists there are such low standards for personal appearance that basic grooming, like shaving or brushing one's hair, does not seem to be expected. Furthermore, that by wearing my usual makeup and clothing, I would probably be taken less seriously that someone wearing some rumpled mess of an outfit, simply because I might have devoted 20 minutes to my appearance that some professor thinks would be better spent collecting data.

It does the scientific community no good to perpetuate the stereotype that we are all poorly groomed mad scientist types. Maybe the public would relate to and trust doctors instead of pretty people like Jenny McCarthy if we were held to basic standards of looking presentable.

Ok, getting off my soapbox now.

[herself the elf]

I am a neuroscience/psychology applicant, but I always have and probably always will look more like an art student. I am started to get frustrated with the bias against caring about one's appearance that seems to be prevalent in the sciences.

My style is colorful and vintage inspired, somewhere between fashionable and slightly eccentric. I realize simply from interacting with academics at work all day that putting effort into ones appearance is somewhat unusual. The vast majority of my female colleagues either look like they stepped out of the Ann Taylor/Talbots catalog (at best) or are ready to go on a nice 10 mile hike (at worst). I stick out because I wear makeup, heels, dresses, more than one primary color at a time, etc.

I have been seriously toning it down for interviews - plain, straight hair, little to no makeup, soft neutral color palette, classic tailored pieces like blazers, etc. I don't want my appearance to distract from me as a candidate. As much as it would be more fun to wear a 40s suit with a hat and gloves, I don't think my flair for vintage textiles really belongs on display while interviewing in the Biology department.

And then after all this careful consideration of what impression I want to make, I show up to interviews and half the other candidates are either in jeans, wrinkled khakis, sneakers, sporting ungroomed stubble, or wearing their hair in a messy unbrushed bun. And no one seems to bat an eye.

And it makes me sad. I am sad that as scientists there are such low standards for personal appearance that basic grooming, like shaving or brushing one's hair, does not seem to be expected. Furthermore, that by wearing my usual makeup and clothing, I would probably be taken less seriously that someone wearing some rumpled mess of an outfit, simply because I might have devoted 20 minutes to my appearance that some professor thinks would be better spent collecting data.

It does the scientific community no good to perpetuate the stereotype that we are all poorly groomed mad scientist types. Maybe the public would relate to and trust doctors instead of pretty people like Jenny McCarthy if we were held to basic standards of looking presentable.

Ok, getting off my soapbox now.

This seems like an incredibly gendered bias, no? (i.e., it has a greater adverse impact on women than on men)

Further, I wonder, if what you say is true (and I have no reason to doubt it), what message it sends out to young women entering the sciences.

Edited March 1, 2010 by herself the elf

[jsenert1]

I am also neuro-psych, but there are plenty of women who take care of themselves. Sounds like a tired argument to me. You take care of yourself and thats never going to play out poorly for you so why worry about it. Either way, I would take qualified and intelligent over "dressed up all pretty"

[herself the elf]

Either way, I would take qualified and intelligent over "dressed up all pretty"

I can't speak to what the OP wrote on what it is like in neuro-psych, but of course, all of us, if the choice were between someone who was intelligent/qualified and someone who was "dressed up all pretty," of course, we would all choose the intelligent/qualified person. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

The concern I think is that if one is both intelligent/qualified and "dressed up all pretty" that one will be dismissed as a flake/not serious. I have experienced this firsthand, but in most of my experience I have had the last laugh, and it has worked out fine.

It is interesting to hear your position jsenert1, and hopefully what you say is true.

LadyL- sorry for butting in to this and bringing up these gender things if it wasn't what you were intending, I just thought it was an interesting conversation I personally am on my way this evening to a recruitment dinner at a school and BOY did I dress dowdy today

[LadyL]

The concern I think is that if one is both intelligent/qualified and "dressed up all pretty" that one will be dismissed as a flake/not serious. I have experienced this firsthand, but in most of my experience I have had the last laugh, and it has worked out fine.

LadyL- sorry for butting in to this and bringing up these gender things if it wasn't what you were intending, I just thought it was an interesting conversation I personally am on my way this evening to a recruitment dinner at a school and BOY did I dress dowdy today

You are correct in your interpretation of my concern.

And the gender angle is interesting too - however, I could see the same bias working against a man with an unusual or flamboyant sense of style (i.e. elaborate facial hair, three piece suits with fedora, etc.) I have a friend who is a 30s enthusiast and wears only vintage attire, and even though he is now CEO of his company, he is aware that people think he's weird and don't always take him seriously. Personally I think if you are competent enough people will overlook all sorts of personal quirks, but I am at the entry level of academia in so many ways and am just tiring of managing so many first impressions.

Edited March 1, 2010 by LadyL

[eastcoastdude123]

And the gender angle is interesting too - however, I could see the same bias working against a man with an unusual or flamboyant sense of style (i.e. elaborate facial hair, three piece suits with fedora, etc.) I have a friend who is a 30s enthusiast and wears only vintage attire, and even though he is now CEO of his company, he is aware that people think he's weird and don't always take him seriously. Personally I think if you are competent enough people will overlook all sorts of personal quirks, but I am at the entry level of academia in so many ways and am just tiring of managing so many first impressions.

I hope they don't look too much into the facial hair thing, especially since I was rocking the Colonel Sanders look to some of my interviews. But as far as your friend goes, he can wear what he wants, he's the CEO :-). Anyway, best of luck to you!

[afritz87]

I'm a biologist, and have also noticed that the standard attire is super casual. I went to my first professional meeting this January (Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology), and on the first day, wearing linen pants and a sweater, was probably in the upper 5% of dressiness. Pretty surprising. Same deal at interview weekends -- lots of jeans and wrinkles.

I'm less concerned about it than the OP though, I think. I make the effort to look classy in those kinds of situations, but I've just accepted that biology, and really academics in general, is pretty casual. I'm thankful that I'll never be expected to wear stuffy 3piece suits or heels for any occasion. LadyL, surely you can express your style as you like once you're in somewhere. You could even probably wear what you wear now, and as long as you express your intelligence in interviews they won't factor your fashion into the decision.

[ScreamingHairyArmadillo]

I make the effort to look classy in those kinds of situations, but I've just accepted that biology, and really academics in general, is pretty casual. I'm thankful that I'll never be expected to wear stuffy 3piece suits or heels for any occasion.

I cannot agree more. I look put together, and even at times dressy, but that's only when necessary. I keep myself in between frills and wrinkles.

[grad_wannabe]

Hmm I'm wondering if there are people at these functions who are purposefully dressing down so as to appear more scholarly-minded and not concerned with "flighty" endeavors like shaving or ironing?

It's sad, but the same bias works in art-world academia as well, at least to my mind it does. The dress code is VERY specific. At every grad info session I went to, it was obvious everyone (myself included) was trying to hit that sweet spot of "I look like an Urban Outfitters photo spread but everything is wrinkled to prove I didn't try too hard because I look like this naturally."

I definitely try not to dress too "pretty" at these events. I never wear heels, dresses, or make-up - but I do wear my biggest glasses.

[cogscimpi]

wearing their hair in a messy unbrushed bun

Yup, that'd be me. I'm actually considering getting dreadlocks, as being a graduate student would keep me from having to go to a job interview for a few years.

But does that mean no one would take me seriously? Again, a similar problem of expression of style being perceived as a sign of a somehow less worthy candidate. Have there been a fair number of sightings of dreaded folks in academia? I can't really think of any...

[coyabean]

Yup, that'd be me. I'm actually considering getting dreadlocks, as being a graduate student would keep me from having to go to a job interview for a few years.

But does that mean no one would take me seriously? Again, a similar problem of expression of style being perceived as a sign of a somehow less worthy candidate. Have there been a fair number of sightings of dreaded folks in academia? I can't really think of any...

Actually I have found locks to be very common among black academics, particularly women who, I think, are striving for ease in a busy schedule. I don't see many non-black people with them anywhere much less academia. But I can't imagine it being much of a problem.

Edited March 2, 2010 by coyabean

[BongRips69]

You and Your Research - Richard Hamming

http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html

There's a few good paragraphs in there about dressing and the appearance of conformity.

The best weapon you have in an interview is your personality. Don't hide some piece of that which will make you stand out. I went to the dentist this morning for a cleaning... you know once every six months... and everybody was commenting about how I shaved my beard. I've only been to this particular place two or three times, but they remembered me for this seemingly arbitrary piece of my appearance. So although I agree with Hamming to a point, don't cover up your strengths!

Edited March 2, 2010 by BongRips69

[LadyL]

It's sad, but the same bias works in art-world academia as well, at least to my mind it does. The dress code is VERY specific. At every grad info session I went to, it was obvious everyone (myself included) was trying to hit that sweet spot of "I look like an Urban Outfitters photo spread but everything is wrinkled to prove I didn't try too hard because I look like this naturally."

Interesting. I work near a nationally known art school and in thinking about it, this is definitely the most common look. But I guess I always assumed there was more room for self expression in art school. I get mistaken for a student at that school pretty regularly and I am definitely not an Urban Outfitters type (and don't get me started on the upselling of thrift store chic that UO perpetuates).

[Marshall]

It's irritating to me that anyone would even look at the fashion of others around them and judge them based on that. (grooming habits are not included in this- although I won't condone any judging). It's also silly to think people are going in there trying to look trendy. I'm going to an interview today and wearing dress pants and a dress shirt. I consider it to be a fashionable choice, but first and foremost it is practical, comfortable and professional.

I will try to look pretty though. I pride myself on being a pretty geologist.

[Piwi]

I went to an interview weekend where the school had explicitly told us that we do NOT need to wear suits, but that of course it is an interview so we should look professional.

I decided to wear black skinny jeans, a dressy shirt (think button down, but short sleeves and minimal collar), and a black sweater vest over the shirt. However, when I walked into the room that morning, ALL of the men being interviewed were in suits! I couldn't believe it. I was the only person not wearing dressy pants (thankfully my black jeans look nice). I had been expecting a group somewhere between suits and the attire described by OP so was pretty shocked at the excessive dressiness.

Last year I went to a national conference and attire was very similar to that described by other posters above, so I still cannot get over the fact that all the men at this interview wore suits....

[red_crayons]

Right now my job has me spending a lot of time in an Ivy League business school. Everyone is so well dressed and smells so nice!

I looooove my Banana Republic's pants. I've finally converted my wardrobe to mostly black/neutrals, which was something I had resisted my whole life, since my mom would always criticize me for it growing up. I finally bought a pair of loafers for my grad open house this week, which I plan to wear every day once the snow is gone.

The best part about working full time has turned out to be that I could learn to dress like a real grown up, and had the money that I needed to accomplish that, too. I still have some vintage treasures that I will NEVER get rid of and wear from time to time. It's nice to feel like my clothes fit and help me look good, instead of just being a generic something I throw over my body. It makes me feel confident, and it definitely helps people take me seriously in my office and in interactions with professors I hardly know.

I'm gonna stick out in grad school (in the social sciences), probably. My worth won't be based on "negotiating group dynamics" anymore, which, like it or not, start getting worked out the second people see you - and judge how you look - so it won't really matter what I wear. But I'll feel great about myself, and adults (outside the department) will still take me seriously. And hopefully all the black will intimidate students when I start teaching.

[monkeefugg]

My motto is: It's always better to be overdressed than look like crap.

That's probably why I don't own anything that's not designer and dry-clean only

[eastcoastdude123]

My motto is: It's always better to be overdressed than look like crap.

That's probably why I don't own anything that's not designer and dry-clean only

I don't know about not owning anything that's not dry-clean only, but I do believe that, if you're a man, you should always wear a suit to anything official.

[mouse]

Right now my job has me spending a lot of time in an Ivy League business school. Everyone is so well dressed and smells so nice!

I looooove my Banana Republic's pants. I've finally converted my wardrobe to mostly black/neutrals, which was something I had resisted my whole life, since my mom would always criticize me for it growing up. I finally bought a pair of loafers for my grad open house this week, which I plan to wear every day once the snow is gone.

The best part about working full time has turned out to be that I could learn to dress like a real grown up, and had the money that I needed to accomplish that, too. I still have some vintage treasures that I will NEVER get rid of and wear from time to time. It's nice to feel like my clothes fit and help me look good, instead of just being a generic something I throw over my body. It makes me feel confident, and it definitely helps people take me seriously in my office and in interactions with professors I hardly know.

I'm gonna stick out in grad school (in the social sciences), probably. My worth won't be based on "negotiating group dynamics" anymore, which, like it or not, start getting worked out the second people see you - and judge how you look - so it won't really matter what I wear. But I'll feel great about myself, and adults (outside the department) will still take me seriously. And hopefully all the black will intimidate students when I start teaching.

For what it's worth-- Cheap Monday makes a GREAT pair of slim-cut black trousers. They're of a sturdy material that feels nice and thick, but not as coarse as denim. I like them because they're flattering and high cut enough to tuck dress shirts into but don't give you the dreaded high-waist tummy protrusion You can even press them with an iron to make them look even fancier.

My everyday wardrobe is also heavily black/neutral oriented and kind of disheveled in an androgynous way, but you can bet that I broke out the Banana Republic/J. Crew and makeup for interviews! My one "nice clothes" pet peeve is that I hate, hate, hate wide-leg dress pants, especially ones made of thin, flimsy materials that wrinkle easily and look so cheap. For that reason, I love my Cheap Mondays. I also wore a pair of slim slate grey pants from H&M that were cut sort of like jeans, but made of a nice subtly shiny material.

[hydrangea]

I do think that the reason we are allowed to get away with the "messy" look is that no one is concerned with it one way or the other. (Or maybe Einstein set an unfortunate precedent.)

The advantage of this is that you are likely going to be allowed to ware your vintage clothing without much ruckus. I have a friend that is excited with the fact that she can be a professional and have bright red or pink hair. We are allowed to have our trademarks. My mother on the other hand works in architecture where everyone has to dress in an innovative and unique way, without going so far as to be kooky. She gets to/has to have her trademarks, but that's often a thin line to walk with much ridicule. (I believe she walks it well, but some others in the profession don't.)

I will say, I was at one of those talks that is open to the public, but part of an interview process... During the summer the guy wore a short sleeve white shirt (no undershirt) and never took off his Indiana Jones hat. We mentioned it during our group meeting, and although none of us were on the hireing committee, we found it to be in poor taste.

I vow to do my part to look unique and kept. I will join the movement.

[The Pseudo grad student]

In response to the OP's rant, it's really just something that prevails everywhere. I mean you are making the conscience decision of "dressing up" for academics and because you know how everyone else dresses, then you should know that you'd be noticed and judged among the many other students in the sciences.

I took a textile class last quarter (what drove me to do so was beyond me, it was killing me in the inside) and we explored this such issue and really it's everywhere, not just the sciences. I remember attending that class among all the haughty textile majors who looked and judged me based on my clothing. I'm an engineer and yes I do follow the stereotypes of just throwing on whatever the hell is there and is clean and don't pay much attention to dress because for me it's not practical as a student who just wants to be comfortable all the time. It's the whole college mentality actually, I mean more than half of the girls i see dress in Victoria Secret sweatpants and the other half with the jeans and t-shirt combo. And because I followed this stereotype every single one of those girls in my class looked down on me because I didn't dress "fashionable" as if I cared or even tired to. Yes, other factors are involved such as I ride a bike to school everyday restrict what I can wear but my whole point is is that everyone judges everyone, especially if they don't know you, based on how you dress. It's just how life is and people have different ways of dealing with it. They can play along or take the risk and step outside the mundane box much like the OP does. It's really your choice and I really do admire that you do take the time to be properly dressed compared to all of us. But it's all a preference, I honestly like casualness because I'll be comfortable all day and if I'm going to be in the lab all day that is my number 1 priority.

Another example I found was professors and the way they dress to class. Being an engineering student, I became used to professors who came dressed casual and found it extremely strange and rather uptight when I saw a professor of mine wearing a suit everytime to class. Most students view that if the professor themselves can't keep their "apperances" up whether it be in dress or cleaniness, many would automatically think that they must be a bad professor. Dress and the judgements and the standards are just apart of being a student, it's just another part of life we all have to go through but surely keep up your style not matter what anyone says, even if they make a judgment, hit them back with your brillance and then they'll see why you do it.

Sorry if I totally missed the point here. I guess I just wanted to get that out there, whether or not anyone's reading this...

[JerryLandis]

I tend to dress rather formally, and often worry that I look like I'm trying too hard. I don't care what people wear, but I really don't understand the thinking behind going to an interview in casual dress or with an untidy appearance. Rolling out of bed and sliding into whatever clothing happens to be lying around on the morning of an interview gives off the impression, in my opinion, that the person could care less about the interview, which is kind of an insulting impression to give. It is difficult, though, to balance your look to a achieve a strong first impression. I don't want anyone thinking I'm a slob, but I also don't want anyone thinking I'm a vain bimbo. Just involves a little more thought when you prepare for these things I guess.

As for unbrushed hair, where I live it's considered fashionable to look like you just woke up after a drunken hookup, threw on your pants and the guy's shirt, and strolled into class. Part of this look involves back-combing your hair (a time and labor intensive process, as my Halloween experience taught me) to give it that carefree look. Ridiculous!

Re dreadlocks: I don't think you'd be disrespected for having them, at least not by your students. Personally I tend to find people with dreadlocks rather intimidating. I don't look very distinct or interesting all the time, tend to blend in with the crowd. But people with dreads are ALWAYS advertising their confidence/personality just by having that hairstyle. Same with with short-haired women. They're more intimidating because they have a more bold hairstyle. When I had short hair, people listened to me more and took me more seriously. I'd imagine it would be similar with dreads, as long as you dressed somewhat professionally and not like Jesus or something.

[moralresearcher]

It's not necessarily related, but I had a guest speaker (in a non-academic profession but one that is prestigious) come into one of my classes yesterday night (seemingly straight from work) who had a visible 1/4 sleeve tatoo and stripper heels. While she was incredibly charismatic and intelligent, those things were slightly distracting in an academic/professional setting. I'm all about self-expression, but I think there is a time and a place where you are representing more than just yourself, and in the workplace is one of those times.

That's just my $.02. I normally don't really care about things like appearance a ton, but I think looking clean-cut, put together, and professional lends a lot to your credibility.

[hogmommy]

I actually published an article as an undergrad about gender and appearance in film as it related to my field (anthropology, specifically archeology.) Archeologists are expected to be (and there are surveys to support this) hairy chested, hairy chinned, fedora-wearing males. (Thanks, Indiana Jones!) Female archeologists are depicted as Relic Hunter/Tomb Raider babes in leather.

I favor Ann Taylor/Banana Republic styles and wear them almost exclusively, especially now that I am older and can afford them. However, I don't mind sitting in the muck at a site in old jeans and a t-shirt. One day, when I am on the Discovery Channel educating the world* I want to be seen as the person who has a classic sense of style rather than the "I'm so smart, I don't care how I look" academic.

*Obviously, this is not my ultimate goal but wouldn't it be fantastic?

[geichat]

You are correct in your interpretation of my concern.

And the gender angle is interesting too - however, I could see the same bias working against a man with an unusual or flamboyant sense of style (i.e. elaborate facial hair, three piece suits with fedora, etc.) I have a friend who is a 30s enthusiast and wears only vintage attire, and even though he is now CEO of his company, he is aware that people think he's weird and don't always take him seriously. Personally I think if you are competent enough people will overlook all sorts of personal quirks, but I am at the entry level of academia in so many ways and am just tiring of managing so many first impressions.

LadyL-im so glad to see this thread! i had the same worries when i went on interviews. i particularly agree with what you said about us being at the entry-level of academia. i would prob care less when im more established

i wouldnt say im particularly dressy but i do like adding a little creativity into my everyday wardrobe. i'd never wear a boring suit. i love vintage and this tends to be the norm at my current school so im very used to it.

it was fine at one of my interviews. however, i was just totally blown off by what people were wearing at a few other interviews. it made me feel very out of place, indeed. i know it doesnt matter so much, but i tend to get very conscious of whether the way im dressed makes me out of place...

Edited March 16, 2010 by geichat