AP Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 In case you haven't heard, SIU is testing a hiring model where recent PhDs would do some faculty work with no pay. Here's the original post on facebook by Karen Kelsky. Here's part of the Twitter feed where some positions argued that they would get paid in experience/exposure. This is a feed after someone called to ask about the position. Here and here are two important the HigherEd articles discussing the issue further. As many of you enter graduate school or have recently entered graduate school, these matters become more pressing. Participating in these conversations may help us polish our position towards these topics (such as labor conditions, compensation, adjuncts, and the like). As an international student, I am resolved not accept ridiculously exploitative labor conditions for clinging to a visa. What are your thoughts?
ExponentialDecay Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 (edited) Quote As an international student, I am resolved not accept ridiculously exploitative labor conditions for clinging to a visa. Out of interest, what's your plan for maintaining this resolve, outside of being a genius or marrying a rich citizen? Edited April 25, 2018 by ExponentialDecay Levon3 and unræd 1 1
TakeruK Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 This is disgusting. My normal position is that I usually advocate for the freedom for people to make their own choices and decisions that reflect their priorities and goals. The main reason I would stray from this position is if doing so would cause more harm than good. This is a case where I would make an exception to my normal position. I would never accept these ridiculously exploitative labour conditions. Furthermore, I would not only make this choice for myself, but I would actively discourage anyone I knew from making such a decision. Doing so harms the entire academic labour workforce, in my opinion. The fact that this school has already put out this "job" ad only further strengthens my resolve that all academic labour should be unionized and protected. With a proper collective agreement, it should not be possible for the University to hire someone outside of the union to do union-protected work (i.e. if the school wants a worker to do faculty-like work, then they must confer the same benefits and protections to the worker as they would a faculty member, even if it's temporary). MarineBluePsy, mockturtle, Elephas and 4 others 7
fuzzylogician Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 My understanding (from a friend a teaches there) is that this was an extraordinarily poorly worded email, and a big misunderstanding. The goal was to give some formal status to an already-existing situation, not to hire new unpaid labor, and that the relevant students aren't allowed to actually teach at all. That said, if true, that's completely outrageous and just plain wrong.
TheWalkingGrad Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 2 hours ago, TakeruK said: This is disgusting. My normal position is that I usually advocate for the freedom for people to make their own choices and decisions that reflect their priorities and goals. The main reason I would stray from this position is if doing so would cause more harm than good. This is a case where I would make an exception to my normal position. I would never accept these ridiculously exploitative labour conditions. Furthermore, I would not only make this choice for myself, but I would actively discourage anyone I knew from making such a decision. Doing so harms the entire academic labour workforce, in my opinion. The fact that this school has already put out this "job" ad only further strengthens my resolve that all academic labour should be unionized and protected. With a proper collective agreement, it should not be possible for the University to hire someone outside of the union to do union-protected work (i.e. if the school wants a worker to do faculty-like work, then they must confer the same benefits and protections to the worker as they would a faculty member, even if it's temporary). Yes, all of this. The moment universities start to get away with hiring recent PhDs without pay it all goes to hell. catsbloom 1
AP Posted April 25, 2018 Author Posted April 25, 2018 2 hours ago, ExponentialDecay said: Out of interest, what's your plan for maintaining this resolve, outside of being a genius or marrying a rich citizen? I am not saying that labor in US is not exploitative, least of all academia. I was talking about the *ridiculously* exploitative job ads (I added the adverb on purpose, to make the distinction between labor conditions in general and just the ridiculous ones, like SIU's) that take advantage of any PhD (local or international) only because the job market is hard. We all have our non-negotiable points. For me, unpaid labor is one of them. dr. t 1
AP Posted April 25, 2018 Author Posted April 25, 2018 2 hours ago, fuzzylogician said: My understanding (from a friend a teaches there) is that this was an extraordinarily poorly worded email, and a big misunderstanding. The goal was to give some formal status to an already-existing situation, not to hire new unpaid labor, and that the relevant students aren't allowed to actually teach at all. That said, if true, that's completely outrageous and just plain wrong. PR said it was unpaid. But yes, the wording was very confusing.
spectastic Posted April 25, 2018 Posted April 25, 2018 4 hours ago, fuzzylogician said: My understanding (from a friend a teaches there) is that this was an extraordinarily poorly worded email, and a big misunderstanding. The goal was to give some formal status to an already-existing situation, not to hire new unpaid labor, and that the relevant students aren't allowed to actually teach at all. That said, if true, that's completely outrageous and just plain wrong. I think the situation needs to be explained better before anyone can have a real opinion on it. that said, I struggle to imagine any situation where it's a good idea to not pay people to do work.
iwearflowers Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 My masters' program involved alumni in these types of activities through an alumni mentoring program. We were matched based on interest, and alumni mentors often served on thesis committees, reviewed job hunt materials, and facilitated professional connections. You can formalize these roles without making them faculty appointments. The same masters program had a lot of kids from well-off families. I had assumed everyone was going to be taking out loans and working multiple jobs to afford school. Turned out that a lot of students were paying for school and living expenses through educational trusts. (Until this point, I honestly thought trust funds were the kind of thing you only say in movies and celebrity magazines.) Students with those resources were able to take advantage of opportunities I couldn't. They could work unpaid internships or volunteer as a research assistant. They didn't have to compete for funding to collect thesis data. After school, they didn't have to consider student debt when job hunting and could take fellowships that didn't pay well or had limited benefits. I worked two paid research jobs plus a few shifts a week in a sandwich shop and still came out with six figures of debt. Academia has enough problems with diversity. An unpaid faculty appointment is something that you can only accept if you're already well off making it one more barrier for people from diverse backgrounds. Elephas, oroanthro, Jayne and 4 others 2 5
ExponentialDecay Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 4 hours ago, AP said: I am not saying that labor in US is not exploitative, least of all academia. I was talking about the *ridiculously* exploitative job ads (I added the adverb on purpose, to make the distinction between labor conditions in general and just the ridiculous ones, like SIU's) that take advantage of any PhD (local or international) only because the job market is hard. We all have our non-negotiable points. For me, unpaid labor is one of them. omg pls I'm not trying to turn this into the communist manifesto. I meant, assuming you do plan to cling to a visa, and seeing as you're into the humanities, like, what's your plan? Levon3 1
AP Posted April 26, 2018 Author Posted April 26, 2018 12 hours ago, ExponentialDecay said: omg pls I'm not trying to turn this into the communist manifesto. I meant, assuming you do plan to cling to a visa, and seeing as you're into the humanities, like, what's your plan? I'm not sure I understand your question then. I'll apply for OPT and then work visa. But I wouldn't do unpaid work just to have a visa.
ExponentialDecay Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 2 hours ago, AP said: I'm not sure I understand your question then. I'll apply for OPT and then work visa. But I wouldn't do unpaid work just to have a visa. I mean you can't actually get an H1B visa for unpaid work, as that violates its terms. I guess my question is moreso the attempt to immigrate via a very bad job market: what's your plan given that it's hard to get any sort of job? No problem if this is too personal - this just has always been a curiosity of mine.
TakeruK Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 1 hour ago, ExponentialDecay said: I mean you can't actually get an H1B visa for unpaid work, as that violates its terms. I guess my question is moreso the attempt to immigrate via a very bad job market: what's your plan given that it's hard to get any sort of job? No problem if this is too personal - this just has always been a curiosity of mine. I'm not @AP, but are you asking in general or did you want to know AP's specific plan? Although I am not personally interested in going back to the US on any sort of permanent basis, I know many international friends who are and have came up with lots of ways to stay in the USA despite a tough job market. So if that's interesting to you, I can share what my friends have been doing / are planning to do.
ZeChocMoose Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 23 hours ago, fuzzylogician said: My understanding (from a friend a teaches there) is that this was an extraordinarily poorly worded email, and a big misunderstanding. The goal was to give some formal status to an already-existing situation, not to hire new unpaid labor, and that the relevant students aren't allowed to actually teach at all. That said, if true, that's completely outrageous and just plain wrong. I read the original email that was posted by the Professor Is In and the email was all about recruiting alumni for these positions and asking departments to come up with a list of candidates with the expectation that each department should submit at least one nominee. The email also mentioned that the zero-time adjuncts would teach classes, serve on dissertation committees, and other university work... Here's the excerpt from the email that the Professor Is In posted: "These blanket zero-time adjunct graduate faculty appointments are for 3-year periods, and can be renewed. While specific duties of alumni adjuncts will likely vary across academic units, examples include service on graduate student thesis committees, teaching specific graduate or undergraduate lectures in one’s area of expertise, service on departmental or university committees, and collaborations on grant proposals and research projects." and: "The Alumni Association is already working to identify prospective candidates, but it asks for your help in nominating some of your finest former students who are passionate about supporting SIU. Please reach out to your faculty to see if they might nominate a former student who would meet HLC accreditation guidelines for adjunct faculty appointment, which is someone holding a Ph.D., MFA, or other terminal degree... The University hasn’t yet attempted its first alumni adjunct appointment, but this is the general mechanism already in place. Meera would like CoLA to establish a critical mass of nominees before the end of the summer. A goal of at least one (1) nominee per department would get us going." I am not sure how that would be a big misunderstanding... it seems pretty clear that SIU is trying to recruit alumni into these positions without pay to do the work of faculty.
Jayne Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 19 hours ago, iwearflowers said: My masters' program involved alumni in these types of activities through an alumni mentoring program. We were matched based on interest, and alumni mentors often served on thesis committees, reviewed job hunt materials, and facilitated professional connections. You can formalize these roles without making them faculty appointments. The same masters program had a lot of kids from well-off families. I had assumed everyone was going to be taking out loans and working multiple jobs to afford school. Turned out that a lot of students were paying for school and living expenses through educational trusts. (Until this point, I honestly thought trust funds were the kind of thing you only say in movies and celebrity magazines.) Students with those resources were able to take advantage of opportunities I couldn't. They could work unpaid internships or volunteer as a research assistant. They didn't have to compete for funding to collect thesis data. After school, they didn't have to consider student debt when job hunting and could take fellowships that didn't pay well or had limited benefits. I worked two paid research jobs plus a few shifts a week in a sandwich shop and still came out with six figures of debt. Academia has enough problems with diversity. An unpaid faculty appointment is something that you can only accept if you're already well off making it one more barrier for people from diverse backgrounds. This!!!! I wanted to be able to compete with all these trust fund kids so I took unpaid internships, volunteer positions, any lab work I could find regardless of funding...and worked a part time job on the side. All of this did limit my job opportunities though. My parents didn't give me one cent. I have a ton of debt as a result of this (credit cards and student loans) but I got into a PhD program so I'm happy. I'm also in the field of psychology so there aren't many paid opportunities for students anyway. AP and oroanthro 2
fuzzylogician Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 2 hours ago, ZeChocMoose said: I am not sure how that would be a big misunderstanding... it seems pretty clear that SIU is trying to recruit alumni into these positions without pay to do the work of faculty. Definitely not trying to defend anyone or explain anything. This has been circulating on my FB wall and that's what a friend who actually works there has to say. I have no personal knowledge of any kind. I do think it's important to concentrate efforts on actual wrongs and not perceived ones that are a misunderstanding, but I don't know which category this falls into.
TakeruK Posted April 26, 2018 Posted April 26, 2018 Taking a generous interpretation, I can see how this all could be a big misunderstanding. For instance, this: 3 hours ago, ZeChocMoose said: "These blanket zero-time adjunct graduate faculty appointments are for 3-year periods, and can be renewed. While specific duties of alumni adjuncts will likely vary across academic units, examples include service on graduate student thesis committees, teaching specific graduate or undergraduate lectures in one’s area of expertise, service on departmental or university committees, and collaborations on grant proposals and research projects." could be fine as volunteer/service work in some cases. It doesn't really say how much of a commitment they are expecting for these things. But thesis committees do often get people outside of the university to serve and they don't usually pay them (maybe for travel reimbursement but not much else). Similarly, academics and researchers do often guest lecture in graduate and undergrad classes (I just did this for my friend's class last semester when my friend was away at a conference). And having an alumni who is also an expert consult on key committees is also reasonable (e.g. dept head search committee, student activities committee etc.). Finally, of course researchers of all types will collaborate with each other without charging fees and so on. So, if this program really is just meant to formalize a network of alumni who could be called on to do some of these tasks on their own time, then I don't think it's a problem. Academics do this type of service work all the time without charging anyways (at least in my field). I actually just did some of these and while the group that asked for my services offered an honorarium, I am not allowed to accept it as I am already paid salary from my own employer for my work on it. So, if this really was a misunderstanding and the only difference between what SIU is doing vs. what commonly happens is that they are creating a network specifically for their alums rather than just researchers in the field (i.e. usually profs and depts cultivate their own networks for this, not at the university level), then this is fine. Note that this is only really okay if things like lectures are guest lectures, not full classes. However, the reason why I feel like there may be more to this than a misunderstanding was the other links originally posted (description of a phone call) plus this: 3 hours ago, ZeChocMoose said: "The Alumni Association is already working to identify prospective candidates, but it asks for your help in nominating some of your finest former students who are passionate about supporting SIU. Please reach out to your faculty to see if they might nominate a former student who would meet HLC accreditation guidelines for adjunct faculty appointment, which is someone holding a Ph.D., MFA, or other terminal degree... The University hasn’t yet attempted its first alumni adjunct appointment, but this is the general mechanism already in place. Meera would like CoLA to establish a critical mass of nominees before the end of the summer. A goal of at least one (1) nominee per department would get us going." Since they are looking to officially call this an adjunct faculty position, combined with the list of duties, it seems more like they are trying to get people to do regular faculty work for free. I think one easy test would be to consider whether or not the work they want this adjunct to do would normally be done by an actual paid faculty member. If yes, then this is unacceptable predatory behaviour. If no, then I think it's a huge miscommunication!
ExponentialDecay Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 7 hours ago, TakeruK said: I'm not @AP, but are you asking in general or did you want to know AP's specific plan? Although I am not personally interested in going back to the US on any sort of permanent basis, I know many international friends who are and have came up with lots of ways to stay in the USA despite a tough job market. So if that's interesting to you, I can share what my friends have been doing / are planning to do. I mean, I don't know them personally so I'm just asking in general. Do share.
TakeruK Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 1 hour ago, ExponentialDecay said: I mean, I don't know them personally so I'm just asking in general. Do share. Sure! Ultimately, as you said, one does eventually need a real paid job in order to qualify for some sort of immigration-intent visa such as H1-B etc. So this is more along the lines of how does an international student maintain legal status in a crappy job market where they might not have a job lined up right after graduation. The goal of staying in the US is to help them find a job and move towards a work visa with or without immigration intent. The easiest and most common thing to do is do OPT (if you are on F-1) as AP said. One common misconception is that you need to have a paying job in order to stay on OPT. There is some limited time you can be unemployed so you can actually apply for OPT without a job in hand. In addition, your job can be volunteer work (e.g. in the lab/group you just graduated from). The main requirements are that you work in the field that you studied in and the work is for more than 20 hours per week, on average. In addition, self-employment is also allowed, so some students open their own consulting firm (or join one created by another student). It doesn't have to be a successful firm. So, this means that for F-1 students, you can almost certainly stay in the USA beyond graduation on OPT for 12 months (or almost 3 years in a STEM field). Of course, I should mention that doing things solely to extend your stay in the USA is against the law. But volunteering in the lab/group that you were a part of and/or starting your own consulting firm can certainly fit within the spirit and the rules of the OPT program. I personally would think the volunteering route is only really worth it if you are doing work that actually benefits you, not the lab you are volunteering for. Otherwise, it's the same as this exploitative free labour.
ZeChocMoose Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 7 hours ago, TakeruK said: Since they are looking to officially call this an adjunct faculty position, combined with the list of duties, it seems more like they are trying to get people to do regular faculty work for free. I think one easy test would be to consider whether or not the work they want this adjunct to do would normally be done by an actual paid faculty member. If yes, then this is unacceptable predatory behaviour. If no, then I think it's a huge miscommunication! Yes - that is what tipped me over the edge too. You don't need to be appointed as an "official" adjunct faculty member to give a guest lecture, serve on a dissertation committee (at least at the universities I have attended), mentor students, or be a professional contact. The recruitment and evaluation process for these zero-time adjunct positions makes me think that they are rolling this out to address their financial crisis and to backfill for faculty that they can't hire due to their lack of funds. I also read the university's response by the interim provost and vice chancellor justifying this because "the use of adjuncts is not unusual on our campus and in higher education generally." True - it's common, but doesn't make it a good practice and its skips over the fact that adjuncts are paid for their labor. Full response here
ExponentialDecay Posted April 27, 2018 Posted April 27, 2018 @TakeruK so they milk their OPT and hope for the best? That's what I figured. Thanks for the response!
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