How many schools is “too many schools”?

[nextcounterplease]

I’m a non-traditional international student, applying to philosophy programs a year after my undergrad from a small LAC in the US. I’ve applied to 20 PHD prorgrams, mostly from PGR, and 2 MA programs. Two of my letter writers, however, think that I’ve applied to an unreasonable number of programs, “exceedingly high,” as they put it. My undergrad GPA isn’t very high but my major GPA is pretty good. I’m also confident I have good letters and that my writing sample is strong as well. My GRE scores are terrible though. Do you think I’m being unreasonable? or unrealistic with PhD admissions? 

[Kantattheairport]

2 hours ago, nextcounterplease said:

I’m a non-traditional international student, applying to philosophy programs a year after my undergrad from a small LAC in the US. I’ve applied to 20 PHD prorgrams, mostly from PGR, and 2 MA programs. Two of my letter writers, however, think that I’ve applied to an unreasonable number of programs, “exceedingly high,” as they put it. My undergrad GPA isn’t very high but my major GPA is pretty good. I’m also confident I have good letters and that my writing sample is strong as well. My GRE scores are terrible though. Do you think I’m being unreasonable? or unrealistic with PhD admissions? 

Nope, and I'm pretty puzzled about what your letter writers could mean. I've never heard anyone say that you can apply to too many programmes; one of the first bits of advice I received when embarking on this process was that I should apply to as many places as possible, within the limits imposed by my budget. Perhaps your letter writers mean that your application is so strong that you needn't have spent money applying to that many places because you're sure to get in somewhere really good? Other than that, I don't see any drawbacks to applying to a bunch of places (as long as you're placing you or your family under financial strain by doing so), so I don't think you really need to worry. :)

Also, your situation sounds similar to mine last year! Though I applied to a relatively small number last year: 8 PhD programmes, and 2 MAs.

[markovka]

I've seen people doing it. In my opinion, it isn't a bad thing if you can afford it. 

[nextcounterplease]

1 hour ago, Kantattheairport said:

Nope, and I'm pretty puzzled about what your letter writers could mean. I've never heard anyone say that you can apply to too many programmes; one of the first bits of advice I received when embarking on this process was that I should apply to as many places as possible, within the limits imposed by my budget. Perhaps your letter writers mean that your application is so strong that you needn't have spent money applying to that many places because you're sure to get in somewhere really good? Other than that, I don't see any drawbacks to applying to a bunch of places (as long as you're placing you or your family under financial strain by doing so), so I don't think you really need to worry.

Also, your situation sounds similar to mine last year! Though I applied to a relatively small number last year: 8 PhD programmes, and 2 MAs.

That’s a really positive way to look at things! Thanks for that! I hope that’s what’s professors mean as well? I didn’t have GRE scores in hand when I asked them to write in letters, which is another reason I felt perplexed by their comments. Also, given my financial situation, I was able to secure fee waivers for most of the schools I applied to which is something I made my professors aware of. 

[Nothingtown]

I would say that there isn't hard number that means "too many." However, there are some factors that could be impacted by high numbers of applications and then it might be too many:

• Financial burden. Between re-sending GRE scores and the application fees themselves, my 10 schools cost me around $900. I got a scholarship to cover some of that, but I couldn't have afforded any more than the 10--and even that was pushing it. So if you can afford 20 schools, great! Go for it! But anyone who can't shouldn't push their financial limits. 
• Time constraints. Holy cow I can't even imagine how long it took  you to do 20 applications! I felt like I was drowning in 10 (and I have a full time job so that's part of it). Not dedicating enough time to each application could damage their quality. In addition, you might miss some of the little details that (in my experience) can be hard to track down--do they want official or unofficial GRE scores? Do they require you to put something special on your CV that the other schools don't ask for? Do they need official or unofficial transcripts? 

Assuming you dedicated a lot of time and energy to your applications, I don't think you applied to an "exceedingly high" number in a bad way. But it is something to watch out for. Most students from my undergrad program applied to between 10-12. But what's "just enough" and "too much" is going to be relative for everyone

[nxr9]

One theory I’ve heard is that, depending on the letter writer, they could feel like if you apply to, say, eight programs, they’d be able to more closely tailor the letter for each program’s strengths and faculty vis a vis your interests and work. If you apply to two or three times that number though, they’re more likely to send out a less tailored letter, because they either don’t know or don’t have the time to get into those kinds of details. That being said, it seems like this is the minority position. 

[Dysexlia]

It's very common for people in my MA to apply out to at least 20-30 schools (and in some cases more). 20 is fine considering the state of the field. 

[nextcounterplease]

21 minutes ago, Dysexlia said:

It's very common for people in my MA to apply out to at least 20-30 schools (and in some cases more). 20 is fine considering the state of the field. 

Ahh, I see. Do you mind sharing which MA? If not, that’s fine.  

[Kantattheairport]

2 hours ago, nextcounterplease said:

That’s a really positive way to look at things! Thanks for that! I hope that’s what’s professors mean as well? I didn’t have GRE scores in hand when I asked them to write in letters, which is another reason I felt perplexed by their comments. Also, given my financial situation, I was able to secure fee waivers for most of the schools I applied to which is something I made my professors aware of. 

Ah, my opinion is that if you have a application fee waiver for a college, then you have absolutely no reason not to apply there (given that you're mostly sending the same things to most colleges!). So I think you're good!

Another note about numbers that might be helpful: I also had the worry that I was applying to too many places last year, when applying to 10. Nobody had told me this, it was just a worry I invented by myself. Crucially, I hadn't really had the opportunity to speak to anyone else who was applying (and honestly I didn't really have that much contact during the process with my letter-writers or advisors either, though I did receive a lot of encouragement before I started). I discovered TheGradCafe around the time I was receiving my final couple of decisions, and at the same time discovered that some people had in the past applied to 30-40 places. So! Don't worry about it. :)

Also, should note that I missed out a very important 'not' in my last (now apparently uneditable) post: I meant of course that you should not place yourself or your family in financial peril! ?

[nextcounterplease]

41 minutes ago, Dysexlia said:

It's very common for people in my MA to apply out to at least 20-30 schools (and in some cases more). 20 is fine considering the state of the field. 

12 minutes ago, Kantattheairport said:

Ah, my opinion is that if you have a application fee waiver for a college, then you have absolutely no reason not to apply there (given that you're mostly sending the same things to most colleges!). So I think you're good!

Another note about numbers that might be helpful: I also had the worry that I was applying to too many places last year, when applying to 10. Nobody had told me this, it was just a worry I invented by myself. Crucially, I hadn't really had the opportunity to speak to anyone else who was applying (and honestly I didn't really have that much contact during the process with my letter-writers or advisors either, though I did receive a lot of encouragement before I started). I discovered TheGradCafe around the time I was receiving my final couple of decisions, and at the same time discovered that some people had in the past applied to 30-40 places. So! Don't worry about it.

Also, should note that I missed out a very important 'not' in my last (now apparently uneditable) post: I meant of course that you should not place yourself or your family in financial peril! ?

I figured about the “not.”  

[nextcounterplease]

14 minutes ago, Kantattheairport said:

Ah, my opinion is that if you have a application fee waiver for a college, then you have absolutely no reason not to apply there (given that you're mostly sending the same things to most colleges!). So I think you're good!

Another note about numbers that might be helpful: I also had the worry that I was applying to too many places last year, when applying to 10. Nobody had told me this, it was just a worry I invented by myself. Crucially, I hadn't really had the opportunity to speak to anyone else who was applying (and honestly I didn't really have that much contact during the process with my letter-writers or advisors either, though I did receive a lot of encouragement before I started). I discovered TheGradCafe around the time I was receiving my final couple of decisions, and at the same time discovered that some people had in the past applied to 30-40 places. So! Don't worry about it.

Also, should note that I missed out a very important 'not' in my last (now apparently uneditable) post: I meant of course that you should not place yourself or your family in financial peril! ?

Yes, all of this is definitely reassuring. I guess there’s nothing to do now but wait! 

[bluwe]

1 hour ago, Dysexlia said:

It's very common for people in my MA to apply out to at least 20-30 schools (and in some cases more). 20 is fine considering the state of the field. 

Same. My rationale was simple for applying to a large number of programs. Some programs fairly assess materials, and some make arbitrary/semi-arbitrary cuts that might get your application thrown in the trash. If you think your application fairs decently if holistically evaluated, then you just have to apply to a high number of programs in order to raise the probability that you apply to a good program that holistically evaluates applications, and, of course, admits you. So, even if it is financially strenuous, the investment sometimes seems justified.

The other general strategy seems to be to apply to a smaller number of best-fit schools, but it seems like tailoring to fit would already be taken into account in the 20-30 schools you apply to. The probability of admission remains fairly constant, I think, no matter how you tailor the apps (on the assumption that you are already a good fit for some programs just based on your real interests). That said, if this strategy would substantially increase the number of top programs that you are a good fit for, then it seems fine. Otherwise, it seems like it is a better choice to apply to a larger number of mid-rank programs--at least if your goal in applying is to increase your chance at an academic job in the future.

[maxhgns]

I think 8-12 is reasonable, and more than that is too many. There aren't that many programs for which one is a good fit, and which one should attend.

 

That said, for the last decade it's been entirely normal for students to apply to 20 or more. I'd guess the average number is probably 16-18. That's just the way it is, now.

 

FWIW I applied to 5 and was accepted to the three good fits, and rejected from the two bad fits. I'd aim for 8 if I was trying again (but then, the number of good places for my subfield is pretty low).

[nextcounterplease]

Thank you, to everyone, for the responses! 

[kakaz]

On 2/5/2019 at 9:30 AM, nxr9 said:

One theory I’ve heard is that, depending on the letter writer, they could feel like if you apply to, say, eight programs, they’d be able to more closely tailor the letter for each program’s strengths and faculty vis a vis your interests and work. If you apply to two or three times that number though, they’re more likely to send out a less tailored letter, because they either don’t know or don’t have the time to get into those kinds of details. That being said, it seems like this is the minority position. 

This was true for me, one of my letter writers told me that he customized each letter depending on the predominant AOI of whatever faculty his letter was for.

[CogSciRob]

On 2/5/2019 at 1:32 AM, nextcounterplease said:

I’m a non-traditional international student, applying to philosophy programs a year after my undergrad from a small LAC in the US. I’ve applied to 20 PHD prorgrams, mostly from PGR, and 2 MA programs. Two of my letter writers, however, think that I’ve applied to an unreasonable number of programs, “exceedingly high,” as they put it. My undergrad GPA isn’t very high but my major GPA is pretty good. I’m also confident I have good letters and that my writing sample is strong as well. My GRE scores are terrible though. Do you think I’m being unreasonable? or unrealistic with PhD admissions? 

As others have said, it makes it difficult to tailor the application to the school, both for your recommenders and you.  If your GPA is on the low end and the GRE is truly terrible (like under 50% scores) and you only applied to top programs,  then they may have been addressing you applying to so many long shot schools. If your relationship is such that they are letter writers, perhaps you can feel comfortable directly asking what they mean and ask if they have any advice for you (either for now or applying next cycle if you need to)

[hector549]

On 2/5/2019 at 11:32 AM, maxhgns said:

I think 8-12 is reasonable, and more than that is too many. There aren't that many programs for which one is a good fit, and which one should attend.

 

I agree that it's probably true that there aren't that many programs for which one is a good fit. However, I think it's not always obvious as an applicant (even one coming from an MA program!) where one is a great fit or how competitive one will be in a given season. Of course, you should do your homework about the programs to which you're applying, but you might still be rejected for any number of reasons: maybe a faculty member's work and interests have evolved and this isn't reflected on the website, perhaps a faculty member doesn't like to work with graduate students, perhaps there are already too many graduate students who want to work with a particular faculty member right now, etc. Yes, 20+ apps is perhaps more than necessary, but I still think it prudent to apply widely, as long as one can afford to do so.

Edited February 23, 2019 by hector549

[maxhgns]

54 minutes ago, hector549 said:

I agree that it's probably true that there aren't that many programs for which one is a good fit. However, I think it's not always obvious as an applicant (even one coming from an MA program!) where one is a great fit or how competitive one will be in a given season. Of course, you should do your homework about the programs to which you're applying, but you might still be rejected for any number of reasons: maybe a faculty member's work and interests have evolved and this isn't reflected on the website, perhaps a faculty member doesn't like to work with graduate students, perhaps there are already too many graduate students who want to work with a particular faculty member right now, etc. Yes, 20+ apps is perhaps more than necessary, but I still think it prudent to apply widely, as long as one can afford to do so.

Absolutely, applicants aren't in a great position to know, especially for subfields that are well-represented in a lot of departments.