2020 Applicants Forum

[feralgrad]

11 minutes ago, rbr542 said:

it isn't always the most gifted writers who succeed, its those who stick with it for years and years without giving up.

Very true! There are many paths to success, but none of them involve sitting on your writing like a dragon's hoard. You need to keep sending your work out, keep getting critiques, and yes, rejections. That's the only way you improve: figuring out how other people interact with your pieces, what resonates and what doesn't. You don't even need grad school for that (even if it comes with many benefits).

[feralgrad]

Shameless triple-post:

I'm debating on whether it's worth the application fee to apply to VCU, given how literary the program is. I wouldn't consider myself Strictly a Horror Writer, but the fact remains that my portfolio is all horror writing, slightly dressed up by my literary training. I always knew it was a long shot, but I figured it was worth trying since my best friend lives in Richmond, and I have a number of creative connections there. Can I get y'all's thoughts?

[Ydrl]

2 hours ago, feralgrad said:

Shameless triple-post:

I'm debating on whether it's worth the application fee to apply to VCU, given how literary the program is. I wouldn't consider myself Strictly a Horror Writer, but the fact remains that my portfolio is all horror writing, slightly dressed up by my literary training. I always knew it was a long shot, but I figured it was worth trying since my best friend lives in Richmond, and I have a number of creative connections there. Can I get y'all's thoughts?

I’m also debating myself, but VCU was supposed to be a backup for me, as stupid as that sounds. I want to make sure all my options are open, and not shut myself into the four programs I applied to that have such low acceptance rates. I’ll apply if I find the money.

[feralgrad]

8 minutes ago, Ydrl said:

I’m also debating myself, but VCU was supposed to be a backup for me, as stupid as that sounds. I want to make sure all my options are open, and not shut myself into the four programs I applied to that have such low acceptance rates. I’ll apply if I find the money.

Can I ask why you consider it a safety? It's less competitive than Iowa or Cornell I'm sure, but probably not by much.

Technically I have the money, but if I'm going to school next year I need to be saving up. Plus, I spoke with a current student, and they described the cohort as somewhat cliquish and competitive. They also informed me that you can't work a part-time job while in school, which makes me nervous since the stipend isn't really enough to live on.

[Ydrl]

6 minutes ago, feralgrad said:

Can I ask why you consider it a safety? It's less competitive than Iowa or Cornell I'm sure, but probably not by much.

Technically I have the money, but if I'm going to school next year I need to be saving up. Plus, I spoke with a current student, and they described the cohort as somewhat cliquish and competitive. They also informed me that you can't work a part-time job while in school, which makes me nervous since the stipend isn't really enough to live on.

I really don’t consider anywhere a safety per say, but I find that it’s somewhat safer to apply to some schools with higher acceptance rates.

And yeah, I’m not particularly enthused about the living situation either. Also not enthused about Virginia. But if that’s the only school I get into then I can transfer if I don’t like it.

[feralgrad]

19 minutes ago, Ydrl said:

I really don’t consider anywhere a safety per say, but I find that it’s somewhat safer to apply to some schools with higher acceptance rates.

And yeah, I’m not particularly enthused about the living situation either. Also not enthused about Virginia. But if that’s the only school I get into then I can transfer if I don’t like it.

For what it's worth, Richmond is a cool city. It's very artsy and liberal, and there's a lot to do considering its small size. Downtown is pretty infested with unwashed undergrads, but I think any small(ish) city with a large university will end up like that. If I don't get in anywhere, I'll probably move there to live with my friend.

Edited December 20, 2019 by feralgrad

[Ydrl]

Hey, question for y’all, what’re your plans if you don’t get in (besides reapplying)? I really don’t know what the fresh heck I’m gonna do.

[Ydrl]

Also, what’s your top choice for applications this round? Genuinely curious.

[feralgrad]

 8 hours ago, Ydrl said:

Hey, question for y’all, what’re your plans if you don’t get in (besides reapplying)? I really don’t know what the fresh heck I’m gonna do.

I'm moving to a cheaper city, getting a low-maintenance job, and dedicating as much time as possible to my art/writing. This past year I tried to start networking with other artists, and I'd like to put more time into that. I'll look for an inexpensive workshop to attend as well.

After last year's application cycle didn't pan out, I made a pledge to keep up my creative momentum, and it paid off. It kept me from getting depressed/in a rut, and my work has improved markedly. I'm still anxious as hell, but I know I'll keep growing and moving forward no matter what happens.

6 hours ago, Ydrl said:

Also, what’s your top choice for applications this round? Genuinely curious.

My final choices this year were Hollins, GMU, and VT (ended up deciding to apply there last-minute, as I realized it was a much better fit than VCU). It's hard to pick a top choice, because this year I only applied to schools that I'd be really excited to attend. That said, I'm leaning towards GMU; it's pretty close to were I live, and the move would be much less strenuous.

What's your top choice?

[Ydrl]

2 hours ago, feralgrad said:

I'm moving to a cheaper city, getting a low-maintenance job, and dedicating as much time as possible to my art/writing. This past year I tried to start networking with other artists, and I'd like to put more time into that. I'll look for an inexpensive workshop to attend as well.

After last year's application cycle didn't pan out, I made a pledge to keep up my creative momentum, and it paid off. It kept me from getting depressed/in a rut, and my work has improved markedly. I'm still anxious as hell, but I know I'll keep growing and moving forward no matter what happens.

My final choices this year were Hollins, GMU, and VT (ended up deciding to apply there last-minute, as I realized it was a much better fit than VCU). It's hard to pick a top choice, because this year I only applied to schools that I'd be really excited to attend. That said, I'm leaning towards GMU; it's pretty close to were I live, and the move would be much less strenuous.

What's your top choice?

I’ve put some thought into what I’m going to do and I think I might do something similar. There are much cheaper places to live that I’ll feel better living in than staying home.

I’ll keep writing, I’ve tried to stop before but I really can’t, even if I should. Writing is an ingrained habit at this point, if I don’t write I don’t function well.

I was gonna apply to VT but I last minute took it off my list due to budget concerns and I had to cut someone off.

I feel kind of dumb for saying that Cornell is my top choice, but I think that’s because I know more about it than Iowa (despite my extensive knowledge of Paul Engle from all the Iowa documentaries I watched). Cornell has a library solely dedicated to rare books! I freaking love rare books, it’s kind of a weird passion of mine. My only two worries about it are that it’s gonna be cold, and that I’m definitely not gonna make one of the 4 seats they have open for poetry...

[feralgrad]

19 hours ago, Ydrl said:

I feel kind of dumb for saying that Cornell is my top choice, but I think that’s because I know more about it than Iowa (despite my extensive knowledge of Paul Engle from all the Iowa documentaries I watched). Cornell has a library solely dedicated to rare books! I freaking love rare books, it’s kind of a weird passion of mine. My only two worries about it are that it’s gonna be cold, and that I’m definitely not gonna make one of the 4 seats they have open for poetry...

I strongly considered applying to Cornell. I like that they encourage experimental work, plus there's the opportunity to teach there upon graduation. I ended up crossing it off my list because I didn't want to move too far from family/friends. In short, I don't think having Cornell as #1 is dumb at all! Personally, I've heard some negative things about IWW's culture. That plus the location means I'd never apply there.

Edited December 22, 2019 by feralgrad

[Ydrl]

17 hours ago, feralgrad said:

I strongly considered applying to Cornell. I like that they encourage experimental work, plus there's the opportunity to teach there upon graduation. I ended up crossing it off my list because I didn't want to move too far from family/friends. In short, I don't think having Cornell as #1 is dumb at all! Personally, I've heard some negative things about IWW's culture. That plus the location means I'd never apply there.

Ah, I liked the encouragement of experimental work too. I also really like the idea of moving far away from home even thought it’s just one state away. Also I never mentioned that I really enjoy one of the teachers there. And yeah, that’s the thing that scares me about Iowa. I would love to move as far from home as possible though.

[rbr542]

On 12/21/2019 at 11:55 AM, Ydrl said:

Also, what’s your top choice for applications this round? Genuinely curious.

My top choice is Michigan. 

 

On 12/21/2019 at 9:11 AM, Ydrl said:

Hey, question for y’all, what’re your plans if you don’t get in (besides reapplying)? I really don’t know what the fresh heck I’m gonna do.

I'm currently enrolled in a literary program with an emphasis on creative writing. I'm just going to continue here, and finish my novel as part of my thesis. To be honest, this is the reason I do not feel nervous about any of my apps; getting in might be wonderful, but it's okay if I don't. 

[Ydrl]

Guys I made a mistake. Don’t do what I did and make a list of acceptance rates. I know my professors said I would most likely get in somewhere, but the highest acceptance rate I found on my list is, at most, 10 percent??? I don’t know why I chose to torture myself like this, but I did and it’s awful. Cornell is the farthest away too, my dream school is in the 1 to 2 percent range. FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-

[feralgrad]

2 hours ago, Ydrl said:

Guys I made a mistake. Don’t do what I did and make a list of acceptance rates. I know my professors said I would most likely get in somewhere, but the highest acceptance rate I found on my list is, at most, 10 percent??? I don’t know why I chose to torture myself like this, but I did and it’s awful. Cornell is the farthest away too, my dream school is in the 1 to 2 percent range. FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-

Where did you find the acceptance rates? Hollins has theirs listed on the website (a *hefty* 10%), but most other programs I've looked at are cagey about it.

[Ydrl]

11 minutes ago, feralgrad said:

Where did you find the acceptance rates? Hollins has theirs listed on the website (a *hefty* 10%), but most other programs I've looked at are cagey about it.

So, keep in mind that this isn’t sound logic: Based on a few different acceptance rates of poetry compared to the number of applicants total I came up with 3/4 of all applicants to three different programs (Iowa, Cornell, and somewhere else) are fiction writers (this involves results from gradcafers who put part of the admissions statistics in their results section, and also some outdated statistics online from 2012 so take it with a grain of salt). If I applied the formula (.25 x # of applicants in one year) to all of the schools, I get the approximate number of applicants in poetry who apply per year (give or take 30-150 given how small or large the program is). For fiction, use (.75 x # of applicants in one year) (give or take 90-450). Then I took the number of seats for my genre only (for Cornell they accept 4 fiction, 4 poetry) and divided them by the number of poets that are probably applying and presto chango, I have a number that is something like 0.015 which you times by 100 to get the percent. 0.015 x 100 = 1.5%. God I hate math. But analyzing the heck out of something is what I do when I’m nervous. But doing this research only made me more nervous for no reason.

 

I should restate this for both myself and others, it’s the work that gets you in, not the statistics. The statistics should be something to consider, but don’t rely on them. It’s not totally random. Have faith in your work, and you. You can do it.

[litty]

On 12/24/2019 at 7:52 PM, Ydrl said:

I should restate this for both myself and others, it’s the work that gets you in, not the statistics. The statistics should be something to consider, but don’t rely on them. It’s not totally random. Have faith in your work, and you. You can do it.

I've never understood the infatuation with with acceptance rates for MFA programs. They mean absolutely nothing. They are rounding errors at best, statistically insignificant. There is nothing that can be gleaned from such small sample sizes. I see people make comparisons about how it's harder to get into most top tier MFA programs compared to top tier law or medical schools. It's apples and oranges and shows limited understanding of the application processes. With virtually all professional graduate programs, and those in the social sciences, there are standards and a pre-sorting process that occurs to apply. In the US, most applicants take the GRE, LSAT, GMAT, or MCAT and coupled with their GPA have a baseline understanding as to whether they should apply to certain programs. So the high majority of applicants to top tier programs have sorted themselves and already meet traditional requirements -- they all look fairly similar on paper. Further, graduate programs have a post-assessment process that influences which candidates they admit. They want to to have the confidence that their graduates can perform well on board exams, bar exams, internships, etc. These numbers matter to them and they select students that demonstrate an ability to succeed in these areas. That is not the case with the majority of MFA programs. Most don't require GREs, and there's no post graduate exam or certification to say you're a writer or artist. It's all nebulous. Applicants come from all skill levels and the sorting is done during the application process. There are few standards. A "strong writing sample" is difficult to quantify. This is all art and personal preference. Yes, there's a degree of basic craft and technical understanding one can have, but it's not required. Depending on the ADCOMS they may value raw talent and a distinctive voice rather than a highly polished voice echoing familiar canons. 

And most importantly, it's not just about your application. For many of the top tier programs, they're building cohorts that can benefit and push each other. So they will often not include writers with similar styles, even if they are the best applicants that year. They want of diversity of thought and not echo chambers. So keep that in mind more than spurious statistics about admissions. Of the thousand applications a program might receive, maybe fifty are interesting and competitive. Of those, it's searching for the right combination to create synergy for the cohort as a whole. This process is not intended to be science. It's magic. 

[feralgrad]

I second @litty. Not to mention that many (if not most) people applying for the first time aren't ready for an MFA program; they're applying right out of undergrad, and/or they're interested in an MFA because it will "force them to write." People like this make up a significant portion of the app pool, and they're very unlikely to have strong portfolios or persuasive SOPs. Well-known programs like IWW and Cornell get inundated with applicants like this, so their acceptance rates are misleading.

That isn't to say these programs aren't shockingly competitive, but it's not as bleak as 1-2% implies.

Edited December 26, 2019 by feralgrad

[Ydrl]

3 hours ago, litty said:

And most importantly, it's not just about your application. For many of the top tier programs, they're building cohorts that can benefit and push each other. So they will often not include writers with similar styles, even if they are the best applicants that year. They want of diversity of thought and not echo chambers. So keep that in mind more than spurious statistics about admissions. Of the thousand applications a program might receive, maybe fifty are interesting and competitive. Of those, it's searching for the right combination to create synergy for the cohort as a whole. This process is not intended to be science. It's magic. 

I agree with that almost entirely. I couldn’t really articulate my feelings before, probably because I got in a car accident two days before I had another freak out about applications. I know that they’re looking to make a cohort that will bring out the best in all the candidates, but also have that cohort be filled with talent. I also agree with the fact that writing and the process of selection isn’t meant to be a science. Maybe it’s my science background that’s really skewing my perception.

However, I don’t personally think that this process is magic. There are elements that we can’t quantify but people can look at and understand. Such as craft, style, voice, symbolism, word choice, etc. It’s the reverse of how we know dark matter exists due to calculations but we don’t know what it looks like.

I’d argue that the selection process is just that, a process, not an exact science that you can firmly grasp in your hands like a rock, but also not magic that slips through your fingers whenever you try and catch it. We know some things about it, it’s not us taking a stab in the dark. Whatever you put in your application (which means sample, plus an SOP, CV, and/or Teaching Statement) is what they’re starting with and ultimately how they choose you.

Sorry that this was long. I didn’t mean to come across mean btw. Apologies if that’s how this came off.

[Ydrl]

31 minutes ago, feralgrad said:

I second @litty. Not to mention that many (if not most) people applying for the first time aren't ready for an MFA program; they're applying right out of undergrad, and/or they're interested in an MFA because it will "force them to write." People like this make up a significant portion of the app pool, and they're very unlikely to have strong portfolios or persuasive SOPs. Well-known programs like IWW and Cornell get inundated with applicants like this, so their acceptance rates are misleading.

That isn't to say these programs aren't shockingly competitive, but it's not as bleak as 1-2% implies.

I agree with this. Also I have to mention the elephant in the room which has been mentioned by quite a few adcoms after I did some mare research. An alarmingly large chunk of applicants aren’t even on the same figurative planet, let alone the same ballpark, as those who are accepted. Whether this means what you mentioned about being forced to write, or not having enough life experience, or perhaps not having developed a consistent voice, etc.

[feralgrad]

Anyone else feeling bitter watching the results for science-related programs come in? I don't know how I'm gonna wait another 1-3 months...

[Brother Panda]

Hey y’all. Glad this forum is up. As much as I’d like to just mentally hibernate until decisions roll in, I’ve found myself checking these forums every few days.

 

I am applying to 15 schools. I’ve already applied to 10. Hopefully that’s as overkill as it sounds. I just really want to get in, and so I’m spreading my net wide. A friend who got his mfa at Irvine said he did the same. He applied to 15 and got into 5. Not trying to scare anyone, just relaying his experience. It sounded like a bit of a crapshoot; he got rejected at some lower-ranked programs but was accepted at a highly-regarded program like Irvine. Take all this info as you will. Everyone has their own plan that’s best for them.

 

Last time I applied, in 2017, I only applied to two places and was rejected at both. I had no money to apply at more. Now I feel my writing is much stronger, my aforementioned friend has read my portfolio and loved it, and in good moments I’m feeling optimistic about my chances. So tl;dr, this application process is a bit of a crapshoot, and I wish you all the best of luck! I’m sure I’ll be posting more as decisions start coming in.

[feralgrad]

Welcome, @Brother Panda! Looking forward to weathering the storm with ya.

15 is a lot, but I respect the dedication. Can I get a rundown of all the schools?

Edited December 27, 2019 by feralgrad

[Brother Panda]

@feralgrad sure thing!

 

Alabama, Michener, New Writers Project, Iowa, U of Arizona, Johns Hopkins, Syracuse, Cornell, Houston, Miami (Ohio), USF, Notre Dame, U of Florida, FSU, BU.

 

I think the Florida schools are sort of "safety schools" (if those even exist). I basically picked schools that I thought had enough funding, had good programs, and were in places that I'd like to live, then I applied to all those schools.

[Ydrl]

19 hours ago, feralgrad said:

Anyone else feeling bitter watching the results for science-related programs come in? I don't know how I'm gonna wait another 1-3 months...

My god yes! I knew someone who got into a program in early December immediately after she applied and I was so so bitter and salty. I feel bad that I didn’t give her a heartfelt congratulations, but I couldn’t because of my nerves and frustration that it was still very early in the application season, like, December 3rd levels of early.