What factors to use in making a decision in light of cancelled visits

[woodscommaelle]

Not going to lie y'all, I'm stressed.

 

I'm committed to policy work in the intersections of food systems/production agriculture/trade, which seems to be a pretty rare focus for higher-caliber schools. I'll be graduating with an BS in May, and threw in some MPP programs when applying for grad school. I have fully funded/stipend offers from MS Ag Econ programs with some narrow policy exposure, but was thrown a complete curveball when I also received offers from the two policy schools I applied to, Duke Sanford and Georgetown McCourt. I'm fairly new to the whole MPA/MPP world and was heavily counting on in-person engagement to gauge the fit and utility of each program.

The cancelling of school visits has greatly exacerbated my stress and confusion about making a decision. To people that are in similar situations (or have been through the decision process already), are there any recommendations you have for additional ways to gain information or make a decision about a school besides the predictable contacting students/LinkedIn-stalking if I'm not able to visit in person? I'd gratefully welcome any and all advice!

[WhoaThereWombat]

Happy to see this post, almost purely for commiseration purposes. I feel this post on a near-spiritual level, lol. 

This was advice given to me by an undergrad professor when I was figuring out which programs I wanted to apply to, and it might be helpful here: go faculty shopping, and see if you can track down 1-3 faculty whose research aligns with what you're interested in. (Apologies if this is old/repeated advice for you.) I think that can go a long way toward figuring out if there's already a space carved out for your interests on campus, instead of needing to battle to create that focus/specialization yourself. It can be a lot to research, since it seems many MPP programs allow and encourage students to take classes outside of the school's policy school. But that's maybe a good place to start, and you could fire off some emails to see if they'd allow you to barnacle-attach yourself to their research endeavors. Or at least take a class or two from them.

I didn't apply to Duke/Georgetown so I'm not sure how they're handling things, but it seems there's some online webinar events that are being held in replacement of a traditional admitted student day. (Berkeley GSSP and USC Price so far for me, out of the schools I've applied to.) I... honestly can't even fathom how that'll impact making such an important decision. So, in lieu of answers at the moment, I just wanna say that this definitely sucks and I'm stressed with you.

[scalmanac]

Thank you for starting this! I think a lot of us have been talking about it on separate threads and it will be great to pull ideas together. 

Maybe it would be helpful for anyone who visited campus, spoke to reps at fairs etc during their application to throw in thoughts, and any pros/cons they picked up on? 

Personally, I've had a dream work environment over the last five years, and am pretty cautious about leaving for anything less than a perfect fit.  I found asking about flexibility for applicants further along in careers really indicative of whether I would consider a program a good fit. Not necessarily the response itself, but the view into the culture of the department.

Everyone will have their own things they're looking for, but if it's helpful for anyone else, these are the programs I visited:

• NYU MPA - Very flexible, they assume all students are working to get by while in the program and adjust curriculum accordingly so all students can take the required courses at night if needed
• Columbia MPA-ESP - No jobs allowed, this was mentioned multiple times in a negative way. It seemed like there would be serious stigma from both students and senior faculty. 
• Yale MEM - Most students at least have part time jobs and I liked everyone I met on the faculty and staff side. But, one of the takeaways was also very heavy involvement of the students I met in private sector, financial and consulting work, not much in the public sector. The lack of strong funding in the program as a whole definitely comes at a cost to any future plans you have for nonprofit or civil sector work. Everyone has their ideals - so both personally and with the cohort you're entering - this is something to think about. The program itself seemed very strong though, especially if you feel aligned with one of the specializations
• Princeton- The dream financially, which either allows for or builds heavy commitment to public service with the cohort - everyone I met was very much in the public sector, no dreamy discussions of consulting for McKinsey over the summer. Very policy focused, but some room for specialization

 

Can anyone else dish?

[GradSchoolGrad]

4 hours ago, woodscommaelle said:

Not going to lie y'all, I'm stressed.

 

I'm committed to policy work in the intersections of food systems/production agriculture/trade, which seems to be a pretty rare focus for higher-caliber schools. I'll be graduating with an BS in May, and threw in some MPP programs when applying for grad school. I have fully funded/stipend offers from MS Ag Econ programs with some narrow policy exposure, but was thrown a complete curveball when I also received offers from the two policy schools I applied to, Duke Sanford and Georgetown McCourt. I'm fairly new to the whole MPA/MPP world and was heavily counting on in-person engagement to gauge the fit and utility of each program.

The cancelling of school visits has greatly exacerbated my stress and confusion about making a decision. To people that are in similar situations (or have been through the decision process already), are there any recommendations you have for additional ways to gain information or make a decision about a school besides the predictable contacting students/LinkedIn-stalking if I'm not able to visit in person? I'd gratefully welcome any and all advice!

If you are interested anything remotely related to food policy (which I'm assuming is more from a Domestic light) --> Sanford at Duke is a way better option. McCourt is better for program / data analysis on Federal powers + other DC-centric related issues (which your topic does have a lot of Federal involvement... but lets be honest, a lot of the innovation and excitement in this space is not happening at the Federal level). 

The reality is for you, North Carolina (i'm from there) actually becomes a huge gain academically, because they have so much related to exporting agricultural products and there will be bound to be a professor at Duke (or even UNC, which is a 30 min drive away), to help get you laser focused in the area. Also bottom line, Duke is simply better at state + local policy + grass roots policy matters than McCourt.

Happy to chat with your directly virtually. Feel free to direct message me. 

Edited March 13, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[LazarusRises]

4 hours ago, scalmanac said:

Thank you for starting this! I think a lot of us have been talking about it on separate threads and it will be great to pull ideas together. 

Maybe it would be helpful for anyone who visited campus, spoke to reps at fairs etc during their application to throw in thoughts, and any pros/cons they picked up on? 

Personally, I've had a dream work environment over the last five years, and am pretty cautious about leaving for anything less than a perfect fit.  I found asking about flexibility for applicants further along in careers really indicative of whether I would consider a program a good fit. Not necessarily the response itself, but the view into the culture of the department.

Everyone will have their own things they're looking for, but if it's helpful for anyone else, these are the programs I visited:

• NYU MPA - Very flexible, they assume all students are working to get by while in the program and adjust curriculum accordingly so all students can take the required courses at night if needed
• Columbia MPA-ESP - No jobs allowed, this was mentioned multiple times in a negative way. It seemed like there would be serious stigma from both students and senior faculty. 
• Yale MEM - Most students at least have part time jobs and I liked everyone I met on the faculty and staff side. But, one of the takeaways was also very heavy involvement of the students I met in private sector, financial and consulting work, not much in the public sector. The lack of strong funding in the program as a whole definitely comes at a cost to any future plans you have for nonprofit or civil sector work. Everyone has their ideals - so both personally and with the cohort you're entering - this is something to think about. The program itself seemed very strong though, especially if you feel aligned with one of the specializations
• Princeton- The dream financially, which either allows for or builds heavy commitment to public service with the cohort - everyone I met was very much in the public sector, no dreamy discussions of consulting for McKinsey over the summer. Very policy focused, but some room for specialization

 

Can anyone else dish?

Where have you heard that having a job while at SIPA is frowned upon? I was definitely planning on helping pay for the program with concurrent work. (I also applied for the MPA without the -ESP, does that make a difference?) Some cursory googling doesn't turn up anything warning against working your way through school, which I assumed was a common wait to finance a graduate degree.

@WhoaThereWombat I don't have any advice as far as choosing programs go, but I live in Durham right now. If there's anything that could be accomplished by somebody else visiting Duke for you, let me know and I might be able to make it happen. 

[scalmanac]

25 minutes ago, LazarusRises said:

Where have you heard that having a job while at SIPA is frowned upon? I was definitely planning on helping pay for the program with concurrent work. (I also applied for the MPA without the -ESP, does that make a difference?) Some cursory googling doesn't turn up anything warning against working your way through school, which I assumed was a common wait to finance a graduate degree.

@WhoaThereWombat I don't have any advice as far as choosing programs go, but I live in Durham right now. If there's anything that could be accomplished by somebody else visiting Duke for you, let me know and I might be able to make it happen. 

Not at SIPA generally, but the MPA-ESP program in particular. It's a one year program split between SIPA and the Earth Institute, and it was communicated repeatedly through an in person information session. 

I don't believe this is the case at SIPA overall,  which is why it caught me so off guard. Definitely a hesitation for me with that program that I would not have known without visiting. Something to bring up as you're scoping out programs if you do plan on working concurrently!

[WhoaThereWombat]

58 minutes ago, LazarusRises said:

Where have you heard that having a job while at SIPA is frowned upon? I was definitely planning on helping pay for the program with concurrent work. (I also applied for the MPA without the -ESP, does that make a difference?) Some cursory googling doesn't turn up anything warning against working your way through school, which I assumed was a common wait to finance a graduate degree.

@WhoaThereWombat I don't have any advice as far as choosing programs go, but I live in Durham right now. If there's anything that could be accomplished by somebody else visiting Duke for you, let me know and I might be able to make it happen. 

You're quite kind to offer, but I didn't apply to Duke! I think you meant to tag @woodscommaelle  

[indianIRguy]

18 minutes ago, WhoaThereWombat said:

You're quite kind to offer, but I didn't apply to Duke! I think you meant to tag @woodscommaelle  

I knew you would come up with this! Funny person...

[indianIRguy]

6 hours ago, woodscommaelle said:

Not going to lie y'all, I'm stressed.

 

I'm committed to policy work in the intersections of food systems/production agriculture/trade, which seems to be a pretty rare focus for higher-caliber schools. I'll be graduating with an BS in May, and threw in some MPP programs when applying for grad school. I have fully funded/stipend offers from MS Ag Econ programs with some narrow policy exposure, but was thrown a complete curveball when I also received offers from the two policy schools I applied to, Duke Sanford and Georgetown McCourt. I'm fairly new to the whole MPA/MPP world and was heavily counting on in-person engagement to gauge the fit and utility of each program.

The cancelling of school visits has greatly exacerbated my stress and confusion about making a decision. To people that are in similar situations (or have been through the decision process already), are there any recommendations you have for additional ways to gain information or make a decision about a school besides the predictable contacting students/LinkedIn-stalking if I'm not able to visit in person? I'd gratefully welcome any and all advice!

I know you didn't ask for this, but take it as some food for thought...

If you are such passionate about food and agri, I would take agri. Econ and not even consider an mpp, as the program by nature cannot go too deep into one specialisation. Whereas with your ms, you become a you-know-what-youre-talking food professional. And with some effort, I guess you can include a little policy coursework.

But I would never go for just an MPP to get into that niche a place...an ms even without MPP will be better, with some networking of course...my two cents

[GradSchoolGrad]

6 hours ago, indianIRguy said:

I know you didn't ask for this, but take it as some food for thought...

If you are such passionate about food and agri, I would take agri. Econ and not even consider an mpp, as the program by nature cannot go too deep into one specialisation. Whereas with your ms, you become a you-know-what-youre-talking food professional. And with some effort, I guess you can include a little policy coursework.

But I would never go for just an MPP to get into that niche a place...an ms even without MPP will be better, with some networking of course...my two cents

@indianIRguy is correct if you want to get set up with a career focused on shooting towards the research based work side of the house in a niche area (hence you have to give up the food area). If you are interested more in the intersection of food + trade + ag as a function of policy engagement via policy programming (private sector or public) or policy related program management, an MPP is a very logical decision. I have to warn you though, food / ag policy that rather unpopular to pursue in some policy schools. At McCourt, I only knew of 1.person interested in food / ag policy. That 1 person transferred to UT Austin after a year when she found herself so frustrated with lack of support / interested peers. At all the conferences / competitions I have been to, I have yet to encounter another food/ag policy person. Hence, picking a school with professors in the school or partner schools that specialize in the area is super important if you want to play this game with an MPP in mind --> Duke. 

Duke MPP has a World Food Policy Center:
https://wfpc.sanford.duke.edu/

There are other programs that support food policy consideration: 
A class they have for example (it isn't in the MPP program per se, but you can cross-register):
https://nicholas.duke.edu/academics/courses/food-agriculture-and-environment-law-and-policy

 

Edited March 13, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[HelloItsMe]

Anybody think universities will push deposit dates back since many of us have to make a big decision without being able to visit universities due to COVID19?

[Spunkydudette]

15 hours ago, HelloItsMe said:

Anybody think universities will push deposit dates back since many of us have to make a big decision without being able to visit universities due to COVID19?

I have been hoping so ... I applied to a dual MALD/MBA program at Fletcher, where you get your International MBA at the IE School in Madrid. And ... I applied to start my first year at SAIS at its Bologna campus *shudders*

[scalmanac]

FYI that there was an open house impressions thread last year that could be helpful to some of you:

 

[SketchesOfSpain]

On 3/13/2020 at 5:11 PM, HelloItsMe said:

Anybody think universities will push deposit dates back since many of us have to make a big decision without being able to visit universities due to COVID19?

I certainly think they should. It's a lot to ask people, especially the working professionals whom a lot of these programs look for, to leave their job/family/whatever then commit two years of time and incredible cost without being able to get a feel for the culture of the program, and other intangibles you can only get by physically being there.

 

From a budgeting etc. standpoint, I understand why they would have difficulty making a group decision to push back acceptance to May or June,  but right now we're all in an episode of Catfish where you have to get married before Nev flies you across country to see your s/o in person. The slideshows are great, the info online is great, but I couldn't imagine quitting my job to move in with an internet girlfriend.

[GradSchoolGrad]

5 hours ago, SketchesOfSpain said:

I certainly think they should. It's a lot to ask people, especially the working professionals whom a lot of these programs look for, to leave their job/family/whatever then commit two years of time and incredible cost without being able to get a feel for the culture of the program, and other intangibles you can only get by physically being there.

 

From a budgeting etc. standpoint, I understand why they would have difficulty making a group decision to push back acceptance to May or June,  but right now we're all in an episode of Catfish where you have to get married before Nev flies you across country to see your s/o in person. The slideshows are great, the info online is great, but I couldn't imagine quitting my job to move in with an internet girlfriend.

I completely agree. HOWEVER... I recommend people think about this as an opportunity to evaluate a grad school in an alternative (if not even more focused) way. That is to talk to people who are in the programs or recently graduated the programs you are looking into. I always recommend at least 3 - A. someone from a similar background that you are from, B. Someone with similar career goals as you C. Someone totally random. 

The reality about official student visits is that at the end of the day, they are essentially live demonstration that serve to give a sales pitch about the best of what the program has to offer (I know, I used to be part of them). After all, there is a business side of every grad program and that is to amass the best human capital (students) at a target window of numbers. 

What these visits don't do necessarily is identify how a program fits you (pros and cons) + growing pains / persistent challenges. Talking to students / recent grads, especially those you know or have a common bond (i.e. sports, hometown, boy scout alumni - anything) that are willing to give a comprehensive and honest picture can be just as good, if not more insightful than a visit. 

Some ways to start these conversations.

1. Ask the admissions office for people you can talk to.
2. Ask people in the forum if they know anyone and they are willing to connect (I connected with two people already)
3. Check out your LinkedIn network. You will be surprised

Edited March 16, 2020 by GradSchoolGrad

[GradSchoolGrad]

1 hour ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

I completely agree. HOWEVER... I recommend people think about this as an opportunity to evaluate a grad school in an alternative (if not even more focused) way. That is to talk to people who are in the programs or recently graduated the programs you are looking into. I always recommend at least 3 - A. someone from a similar background that you are from, B. Someone with similar career goals as you C. Someone totally random. 

The reality about official student visits is that at the end of the day, they are essentially live demonstration that serve to give a sales pitch about the best of what the program has to offer (I know, I used to be part of them). After all, there is a business side of every grad program and that is to amass the best human capital (students) at a target window of numbers. 

What these visits don't do necessarily is identify how a program fits you (pros and cons) + growing pains / persistent challenges. Talking to students / recent grads, especially those you know or have a common bond (i.e. sports, hometown, boy scout alumni - anything) that are willing to give a comprehensive and honest picture can be just as good, if not more insightful than a visit. 

Some ways to start these conversations.

1. Ask the admissions office for people you can talk to.
2. Ask people in the forum if they know anyone and they are willing to connect (I connected with two people already)
3. Check out your LinkedIn network. You will be surprised

Just something else for people to think about as it looks like this corona virus business will be bringing forward a likely recession (I really hope I am wrong). 

In some ways, going to grad school in a recession is pretty great, because you are riding out the misery of lower incomes / job hunting in the first place. There are also more opportunities for cheap / free labor (internships / projects you could get in grad school). HOWEVER... depending on how long a recession lasts, your job prospects at the end of the road can look pretty rocky. As you are thinking about grad school, I recommend thinking about two things.
 

1. Put greater emphasis on considering which program / school have the greater potential return on investment. The great way to look at this is actually see employment numbers and where people end up (most schools publish them. If a school doesn't, that should be a warning sign). Another part is asking the hard questions of if the school (not the brand) actually prepares people for a better job (emphasis on better and not just any job). Ask students/recent alumni about that. 

2. Scholarships matter more. A penny saved is a penny earned at Ben Franklin roughly said. Also tied to this are money making opportunities in school that have concurrent career advancing value  (TA / RA / Paid Semester side internships).

I give this advice from two perspectives. I graduated college in the last recession and I saw people who went to MPP programs immediately after college struggle a lot. Some of them just had the ill-conceived notion of going to any grad school to ride out the recession rather than thinking about how their grad school selection supported career stability and their career goals. Hence, I know people whose MPP's were basically throwaway degrees as they worked at a restaurant or did something completely not related to their degree for a year or so after graduation due to the recession. The other perspective is how I saw so many people from my MPP program not have a job at graduation (in a middle of a booming economy). The jobs some ended up taking (sometimes many months after the fact) were at times equal, if not a step below their careers level pre-grad school (I understand this to a certain point is subjective). 

[GradSchoolGrad]

FYI to all.

The US News rankings for grad programs just came out:
https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-public-affairs-schools

Yes... to a certain extent this is a beauty contest (not as rigorous as the undergrad ranking or med school rankings), but will people you engage in the real world check this out. You betcha. 

[WhoaThereWombat]

2 hours ago, GradSchoolGrad said:

FYI to all.

The US News rankings for grad programs just came out:
https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-public-affairs-schools

Yes... to a certain extent this is a beauty contest (not as rigorous as the undergrad ranking or med school rankings), but will people you engage in the real world check this out. You betcha. 

MPP folks might be more interested in the Public Policy Analysis rankings. But yeah, this is a bit of a crapshoot.