2022 Creative Writing MFA Applicants Forum

[nicolette7766]

6 minutes ago, koechophe said:

This is true for some programs, but a lot of programs don't actually rank their waitlists.

From what I've read, a lot of programs really try to build a diverse group of writers (not just ethnicity/sexuality diverse, but diverse as far as writing types, personalities, ages, etc). 

To that end, a lot of them don't actually rank their waitlist. If someone drops from consideration, they pick someone on the waitlist who will preserve the diversity they were looking for in the incoming class. 

Not sure if that is encouraging or not, but from what I've read, that's how a lot of programs do it. 

Yes I’ve heard that too! Not sure how Miami handles their waitlists, though. They just told me it’s “very short.”

[Taimur]

39 minutes ago, koechophe said:

This is true for some programs, but a lot of programs don't actually rank their waitlists.

From what I've read, a lot of programs really try to build a diverse group of writers (not just ethnicity/sexuality diverse, but diverse as far as writing types, personalities, ages, etc). 

To that end, a lot of them don't actually rank their waitlist. If someone drops from consideration, they pick someone on the waitlist who will preserve the diversity they were looking for in the incoming class. 

Not sure if that is encouraging or not, but from what I've read, that's how a lot of programs do it. 

Source?

[nicolette7766]

Accepted to UNCG for fiction! I will be declining my offer though cause I am going to OSU. Hope this helps someone!

[koechophe]

23 minutes ago, Taimur said:

Source?

It's something that a lot of people on Draft who have sat on admissions comittees or talked to professors about it have said. You can also find adcoms talk about it in their articles. Here's an example:

"Understand that I would, all other things being equal, hope to balance gender, race, class, age, interests, styles, and whatever else might be considered to create a dynamic, rigorous, hardworking, and supportive workshop. You can’t know if my most experimental writer is graduating out, and I hesitate to add another dirty realist to the mix."

(Source: https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/education-oronte-churm/guy-who-may-have-read-your-mfa-application-speaks)

I've read other articles that say similar things. 

Like I said before, there are definitely programs that rank their waitlists, but if you look at people who post waitlists, you'll see a lot of them say the waitlists are "Unranked." In a very much, "this isn't 100% how everyone does it," a pretty common sentiment is that they will often pick a candidate who will best uphold the diversity of the program, depending on who says no to their acceptance offer. 

Edited March 21, 2022 by koechophe

[Kunsthalle]

Hi all, does anyone know how long/short in general the waitlist for NYU fiction is? Will I know the result by the 15th of April?

[Taimur]

7 minutes ago, koechophe said:

"Understand that I would, all other things being equal, hope to balance gender, race, class, age, interests, styles, and whatever else might be considered to create a dynamic, rigorous, hardworking, and supportive workshop. You can’t know if my most experimental writer is graduating out, and I hesitate to add another dirty realist to the mix."

 

This quote points out that before diversity factors come into play, all other things need to be equal. That suggests to me that should all of the remaining writing samples and qualifications be at the same level, only then do diversity elements emerge as a kind of tie-breaker, if necessary, which makes sense given that for a very long time, MFA programs were composed of straight, white men. 

What I had a problem with is in your earlier post, when you stated that "If someone drops from consideration, they pick someone on the waitlist who will preserve the diversity they were looking for in the incoming class." This made it sound as if diversity is the primary element that determines if someone gets taken off a waitlist, as opposed to, say, their actual abilities as a writer. 

I point this out because MFA programs can be difficult spaces for many POC writers who are often seen as having a place only due to their role in diversifying the program, rather than their skills and academic potential.

 

[immyc]

Hey all! I got on the Cornell waitlist at the end of February, and am wondering if anybody has any insight about what's going on with Cornell acceptances/ waitlists, etc? I haven't seen a ton about Cornell on this page, and I'm not on Draft, so I'm just curious if anyone knows anything?

[koechophe]

50 minutes ago, Taimur said:

This made it sound as if diversity is the primary element that determines if someone gets taken off a waitlist, as opposed to, say, their actual abilities as a writer. 

Sorry I came off that way. I in no way was trying to imply people get into these programs without talent. No matter what your ethnic/sexual/social identity is, you have to be a DANG good writer to get in, or even get waitlisted. 

My main understanding is that there is such a razor-thin separation between people on waitlists in general that anyone who gets in will get in because they're talented, first and foremost. So many people (including the article I posted) talk about how it's splitting hairs to try and pick people. 

I absolutely believe anyone who makes it on the waitlist has 100% earned their spot. 

54 minutes ago, Taimur said:

I point this out because MFA programs can be difficult spaces for many POC writers who are often seen as having a place only due to their role in diversifying the program, rather than their skills and academic potential.

I can believe this, because I've heard of it being a thing in a lot of other fields, but since I have't really heard of it happening specifically (I haven't seen people talking about their experiences with this), I had sort of passively hoped it wasn't an issue in MFAs. 

Sucks that people can be that way. 

Thanks for calling that out, it was never my intention to imply that people got in "just" because of places looking for a diverse cohort. Everything I've seen from people who actually get into these programs suggest they are fabulous writers who 100% deserve their seats. 

[mrshakeysingstheblues]

2 hours ago, koechophe said:

It's something that a lot of people on Draft who have sat on admissions comittees or talked to professors about it have said. You can also find adcoms talk about it in their articles. Here's an example:

"Understand that I would, all other things being equal, hope to balance gender, race, class, age, interests, styles, and whatever else might be considered to create a dynamic, rigorous, hardworking, and supportive workshop. You can’t know if my most experimental writer is graduating out, and I hesitate to add another dirty realist to the mix."

(Source: https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/education-oronte-churm/guy-who-may-have-read-your-mfa-application-speaks)

I've read other articles that say similar things. 

What in the hell do they mean by “dirty realist” anyway? By that metric, Faulkner and Hemingway would be told to hit the bricks. What’s more troubling to me is the idea that people go through admissions LOOKING for diversity rather than the best writers period. I’m all for it if the best writer checks a diversity box, but it’s red tape nonsense otherwise. But thus is the nature of admissions in college I figure.  

[Starbuck420]

10 minutes ago, mrshakeysingstheblues said:

What in the hell do they mean by “dirty realist” anyway?

yeah lol this got a brow raise for sure

also not to be a huge snob but none of the creative writing professors who talk about realism seem to have any idea of what it is beyond simply "the kind of prose that i personally think is old fashioned and find to be boring." for case in point, see Zadie Smith's excellent and incorrect essay "Two Paths for the Novel." I love that essay, but man oh man, it is so wrong about the history of realism in almost every way

[mrshakeysingstheblues]

2 minutes ago, Starbuck420 said:

yeah lol this got a brow raise for sure

also not to be a huge snob but none of the creative writing professors who talk about realism seem to have any idea of what it is beyond simply "the kind of prose that i personally think is old fashioned and find to be boring." for case in point, see Zadie Smith's excellent and incorrect essay "Two Paths for the Novel." I love that essay, but man oh man, it is so wrong about the history of realism in almost every way

Right. I mean, if I write about a character who has Parkinson’s Disease and is very young (in other words, myself), am I a “dirty realist” because I portray the world as it is for someone young with a disability, or in order to satisfy their need for something experimental, I write about a world that rolls out the red carpet for you with fanfare simply because you are disabled? Hell, why not make him a unicorn that farts Sour Skittles and has a speaker in his horn that plays Cat Stevens records all day? As long as it isn’t realistic. 

[maz]

31 minutes ago, mrshakeysingstheblues said:

What in the hell do they mean by “dirty realist” anyway? By that metric, Faulkner and Hemingway would be told to hit the bricks. What’s more troubling to me is the idea that people go through admissions LOOKING for diversity rather than the best writers period. I’m all for it if the best writer checks a diversity box, but it’s red tape nonsense otherwise. But thus is the nature of admissions in college I figure.  

"Dirty realism" is a type of realism -- I think they just used it as an example.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Elwolf

[Starbuck420]

14 minutes ago, Elwolf said:

"Dirty realism" is a type of realism -- I think they just used it as an example.

lol busted for not actually reading the article. sorry, team

[Nightwitch]

On 3/20/2022 at 12:34 AM, cherrypi said:

Friends, which program(s) include pedagogical emphasis?
 

Many programs state up front that while they may equip grad students to teach, they’re unapologetically disinterested in investing too much emphasis on building future teachers, but which programs are the opposite? Know of any in particular? 
 

I know the stats, just curious.
thanks and happy Saturday 

Chatham actually has a pedagogy track. I spoke to one of the current students, and he's taking up those modules. But it's a mostly unfunded program. 

[cherrypi]

3 minutes ago, Nightwitch said:

Chatham actually has a pedagogy track. I spoke to one of the current students, and he's taking up those modules. But it's a mostly unfunded program. 

oh! Okay, that's super helpful. Thanks!

[EmilyKate1]

Checked my email last night around 10pm and found out I was accepted at Emerson! Fiction track. 

"Dear Emily:
Congratulations! On behalf of the faculty admission committee, I am delighted to inform you that you have been admitted into the Master of Fine Arts in Creative Writing program for Fall 2022. You were chosen from a select group of highly qualified applicants because of your strong academic, professional, and personal credentials."

Just waiting to hear back from Charleston to find out about the waitlist, then can FINALLY make a decision! I feel like it's been 10,000 years since I sent out my apps?

[EmilyKate1]

1 minute ago, rejj said:

@EmilyKate1 , can you go to Emerson without loans? Mother Hen in Draft just wrote her annual manifesto not to take out loans. She says you will never manage to pay them back through writing. 

Most likely not. But I have to see what funding they will have for me. No word on that yet, might have a fully funded GAship in Rhode Island, so we will see! Agreed though- loans are the devil. 

[koechophe]

28 minutes ago, rejj said:

I’ve never seen this latest claim on Draft that schools don’t rank waitlists because they first want to see who declines their offer, and then find a facsimile of them

 

Lest anyone who isn't on Draft actually consider believing him, the whole "diversity" subject, particularly on waitlists, has a number of topics about it.

There's a pretty recent discussion about this here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1018484244926541/posts/5036084133166512/?__cft__[0]=AZXF5z8LHW771fkTcF3KHNSMZfmjvU9fc1ESetlP932xs7VsqpDYlR9KMXhylDt7k47gEl3jH95AKUiZxYfvlVylVTuQJ1HXEkYxxMLuSQT7iAL1BzEM46VnetAbBgsKNpc&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R

Some notable quotes (And these in response to the question, "how are decisions made on unranked waitlists?")

"Typically, this is about maintaining a balanced cohort. The parameters may differ for MFAs, but for a fellowship I participated in, they would consider any of these factors: race, age, geographic location, language proficiency (for MFAs, may be genre instead), socio-economic background, sexual orientation, disability, etc. Depending on what they accepted in the application, it could be any of these factors or beyond: professional experience, publications, fit/contrast to campus culture, etc."

"I was waitlisted at Syracuse and asked them about that. Basically it has to do with creating a ‘balanced’ cohort. They didn’t say this, but the impression I got was they were going for some degree of diversity, so if a person of color dropped, they planned to replace them with another POC instead of going down a list."

"That is my understanding as well, even with initial offers. I did my BA at UMich and had classes with most of the MFA professors at the time. More than one prof shared this with me."

 

[retrotyping]

6 hours ago, immyc said:

Hey all! I got on the Cornell waitlist at the end of February, and am wondering if anybody has any insight about what's going on with Cornell acceptances/ waitlists, etc? I haven't seen a ton about Cornell on this page, and I'm not on Draft, so I'm just curious if anyone knows anything?

What genre are you in? Someone turned down their fiction spot last week, but I don’t recall seeing other declined Cornell offers. Happy to keep an eye for ya in draft! 

[immyc]

27 minutes ago, retrotyping said:

What genre are you in? Someone turned down their fiction spot last week, but I don’t recall seeing other declined Cornell offers. Happy to keep an eye for ya in draft! 

Thank you for the response! I'm in fiction. Appreciate you keeping an eye out... never realized how ridiculously stressful these waitlists were until I got on one... 

[abcdpppp]

Hi new here! Thanks for letting me read and be anxious and happy with you all 

I applied to only 4 schools, all of which I was really interested in, and was rejected from IWW, Brown, probably Columbia but I actually haven't heard back (can't afford it anyway...). This was my first time applying. And honestly it was all a little last minute, I got together my IWW and Brown app in like 2 days (not the writing obviously)....

I've been accepted into Brooklyn College's poetry cohort and I'm really excited about this — Ben Lerner and Anselm Berrigan are on the faculty and are some of my favorite writers. They offered me the grant that only one applicant across all all genres gets, and its a CUNY, so I'd walk away with around 15k in total debt. I know this is obviously a personal decision but does this sound reasonable for an MFA? My undergrad debt is currently just over 5k (maybe TMI)

I know it's a great program esp. for more experimental writing, though perhaps not as well known outside of the East Coast. I want to move to New York and honestly have been feeling so aimless recently, so it's a really good time for me to settle back into school. But

Am I so stupid for not trying again at the fully funded places in a year? Will I regret this forever......... PLEASE HELP

Edited March 22, 2022 by yy1234
typo

[CHRISTOPHER QUANG BUI]

5 hours ago, abcdpppp said:

Hi new here! Thanks for letting me read and be anxious and happy with you all 

I applied to only 4 schools, all of which I was really interested in, and was rejected from IWW, Brown, probably Columbia but I actually haven't heard back (can't afford it anyway...). This was my first time applying. And honestly it was all a little last minute, I got together my IWW and Brown app in like 2 days (not the writing obviously)....

I've been accepted into Brooklyn College's poetry cohort and I'm really excited about this — Ben Lerner and Anselm Berrigan are on the faculty and are some of my favorite writers. They offered me the grant that only one applicant across all all genres gets, and its a CUNY, so I'd walk away with around 15k in total debt. I know this is obviously a personal decision but does this sound reasonable for an MFA? My undergrad debt is currently just over 5k (maybe TMI)

I know it's a great program esp. for more experimental writing, though perhaps not as well known outside of the East Coast. I want to move to New York and honestly have been feeling so aimless recently, so it's a really good time for me to settle back into school. But

Am I so stupid for not trying again at the fully funded places in a year? Will I regret this forever......... PLEASE HELP

I want to preface this by saying—and this perhaps goes without saying—I am no financial guru, nor am I any type of advisor on the matter but for what it’s worth here goes: 

It truly depends on whether you want it enough right now. If an MFA is what you want, go for the moon and more. If not, though, hold out. Getting in this year probably means that you’ll get in any ol time. But the program and faculty are great and honestly that’s not a lot of debt. You know? especially for a big city! 

I’d do it but then again, I’m insanely careless about money. I had debt for my undergrad, too, as I come from a low-income background. 

In my eyes, I’d do it. But I’m no patient person either. I go go go. 

Always depends on you…and you might want to hear from more wise people but that’s my opinion. 

Hope that helps!

Best.

[palaver]

6 hours ago, abcdpppp said:

Hi new here! Thanks for letting me read and be anxious and happy with you all 

I applied to only 4 schools, all of which I was really interested in, and was rejected from IWW, Brown, probably Columbia but I actually haven't heard back (can't afford it anyway...). This was my first time applying. And honestly it was all a little last minute, I got together my IWW and Brown app in like 2 days (not the writing obviously)....

I've been accepted into Brooklyn College's poetry cohort and I'm really excited about this — Ben Lerner and Anselm Berrigan are on the faculty and are some of my favorite writers. They offered me the grant that only one applicant across all all genres gets, and its a CUNY, so I'd walk away with around 15k in total debt. I know this is obviously a personal decision but does this sound reasonable for an MFA? My undergrad debt is currently just over 5k (maybe TMI)

I know it's a great program esp. for more experimental writing, though perhaps not as well known outside of the East Coast. I want to move to New York and honestly have been feeling so aimless recently, so it's a really good time for me to settle back into school. But

Am I so stupid for not trying again at the fully funded places in a year? Will I regret this forever......... PLEASE HELP

I guess a lot of the answer to this depends on what you plan to do while getting your degree. Brooklyn College is a program with a sterling reputation in NYC and well-connected faculty. There's no doubt you'll get a good education, and it's an amazing option for people who want to keep their day jobs. Do you currently live in NYC and plan on working while doing your MFA? If so, I'd accept the offer. If you plan on not working at all as one might somewhere like IWW or Brown, it may be a dicier idea to get into that sort of debt, but it's also not so bad compared to what you'd incur at, say, Columbia.

[1moreX]

On 3/21/2022 at 10:53 AM, koechophe said:

This is true for some programs, but a lot of programs don't actually rank their waitlists.

From what I've read, a lot of programs really try to build a diverse group of writers (not just ethnicity/sexuality diverse, but diverse as far as writing types, personalities, ages, etc). 

To that end, a lot of them don't actually rank their waitlist. If someone drops from consideration, they pick someone on the waitlist who will preserve the diversity they were looking for in the incoming class. 

Not sure if that is encouraging or not, but from what I've read, that's how a lot of programs do it. 

I heard the same from FSU.

[Sydup]

Who else just wrote next year's personal statement because me too.