Fall 2012 Applicant Chit Chat

[Tigalily]

I'm not sure if anyone else applied... but I got a call from George Mason University tonight, with a funded admission offer.

Congrats! I applied there too. Hope to hear something soon.

[crater21]

Thanks all!

And, Congrats to doodle!!

[New England Nat]

University of Minnesota?

Yes.

[TMP]

STF: I would look at 15 candidates are a possible yield. Remember, programs actually accept more students than they hope to have matriculated.

I really am beginning to get curious about the numbers of applications as well. I feel like Northwestern's really inflated. There is absolutely NO way the application could have really soared. Wisconsin's had pretty good increase in the last 2-3 years from mid-200 applications to nearly 400 last year. Thanks, recession. I woul definitely agree that 2009 and 2010 were the most difficult years.

[sandyvanb]

Congrats Doodle!

[Nordicllama]

Well perhaps the numbers haven't quite shot up as high as departments claim, but I would certainly be inclined to believe they have increased a good bit. But equally damaging is that the number of available spots have been drastically reduced. We've heard that IU is taking only 10, Minn Twin only 14, UVA I have on good authority took only 17 down from 24.

[oseirus]

Well perhaps the numbers haven't quite shot up as high as departments claim, but I would certainly be inclined to believe they have increased a good bit. But equally damaging is that the number of available spots have been drastically reduced. We've heard that IU is taking only 10, Minn Twin only 14, UVA I have on good authority took only 17 down from 24.

the consensus before seem to be that since the recession had receded somewhat, there was the likelihood that a few more seats would open up. Is it possible that the decline in class size isn't entirely because of the recession?

[simone von c]

With all due respect to Safferz, the funding information she described for the University of Toronto is incorrect. The standard funding package (posted on the website) is tuition remission and a $15,000 stipend. This applies to both domestic and international students. Since the tuition amount differs, the total package does as well, but the bottom line is the same. Many domestic students have external funding which ups the stipend (Canada has several generous options). For international students, external funding options are limited but not non-existent. There are generous (and competitive) university and provincial scholarships which ... if awarded ... exceed U.S. Ivy League funding. It is very true that there are but a few spots in History for international students at U of T, but as always, reality is more complex and nuanced than generalized statements can convey. This is the case at most U.S. universities as well.

[crater21]

Simone, I think both you and Safferz are correct. It's just different ways of describing the same situation.

You could describe it as $15,000 + tuition OR $23,000 and no tuition.

Edited February 24, 2012 by crater21

[Safferz]

With all due respect to Safferz, the funding information she described for the University of Toronto is incorrect. The standard funding package (posted on the website) is tuition remission and a $15,000 stipend. This applies to both domestic and international students. Since the tuition amount differs, the total package does as well, but the bottom line is the same. Many domestic students have external funding which ups the stipend (Canada has several generous options). For international students, external funding options are limited but not non-existent. There are generous (and competitive) university and provincial scholarships which ... if awarded ... exceed U.S. Ivy League funding. It is very true that there are but a few spots in History for international students at U of T, but as always, reality is more complex and nuanced than generalized statements can convey. This is the case at most U.S. universities as well.

I mistakenly referred to the "funding package" (22k for Canadians, 31k for international students) as "stipend," but I don't see the issue with my comment -- tuition and fees *are* deducted from that amount to leave you with the 15k stipend, which is certainly not competitive compared to the American schools that UofT sees itself on par with. You can get external funding anywhere, so I'm more interested in comparing the basic packages that PhD programs have to offer. The fact of the matter is that UofT's funding package is why many top students choose to go elsewhere, something that was not lost on the adcomm members I've talked to.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Safferz

[jstrassf]

Yep, and I think inflated numbers can come from the department, as well. I find it difficult to believe Columbia's claim that they have over 600 applicants annually, when comparable schools (Chicago, Yale, Harvard) never claim more than 400. Maybe it's the New York factor, but I'm doubtful.

I know that Columbia had over 200 Americanists alone apply, so I don't think the numbers are exaggerated.

[oseirus]

I know that Columbia had over 200 Americanists alone apply, so I don't think the numbers are exaggerated.

where are these numbers coming from if I may ask?

[Nordicllama]

the consensus before seem to be that since the recession had receded somewhat, there was the likelihood that a few more seats would open up. Is it possible that the decline in class size isn't entirely because of the recession?

It could still be "after shock" from the recession. Technically if there is a quarter of growth, no matter how insignificant, then the recession is considered over. Even the economic growth we have had hasn't been enough to really bring us back to 2007 from 2009. The DJI is about twice what it was in 2009 (up to about 1300 from 6600) but that is still a full 1000 points below what it hit in 2007. Also, it could take a few years for that economic growth to translate back into increased state revenue and education budget hikes.

[maeisenb]

It could still be "after shock" from the recession. Technically if there is a quarter of growth, no matter how insignificant, then the recession is considered over. Even the economic growth we have had hasn't been enough to really bring us back to 2007 from 2009. The DJI is about twice what it was in 2009 (up to about 1300 from 6600) but that is still a full 1000 points below what it hit in 2007. Also, it could take a few years for that economic growth to translate back into increased state revenue and education budget hikes.

Well there are two issues here, sorry to be somewhat overly political, but that was my previous career so I come from a particular angle on this.

1. In some of the strongest Midwest state university systems (e.g. IU, OSU, UW-M) there were significant budget cuts in education due to the 2010 gubernatorial election results, in some cases even as there was a surplus in other areas. That certainly reduces the total spending on universities overall, which then means fewer PhD spots all around. Or in some cases a change to where PhD funding goes, so Gov. Rick Scott in Florida has literally come out and said he doesn't see the need to support social science and humanities education spending.

2. The end of state funding from the Stimulus package in 2009 has reduced the amount states and cities receive from all types of funding, but particularly Medicaid spending among others. This has the effect of reducing overall state budgets, which since many states have balanced budget amendments but requirements on Medicaid and other funding, has let them to cut funding in education and other areas.

The economy is certainly better than it was in early 2009, but we are now seeing the results of state based austerity measures in education funding that will require at least several more years to reverse. That's if states even decide they want to return to education funding levels of pre-2008 - which I'm not sure they will, but time will tell.

[StrangeLight]

at the end of 2008 and the beginning of 2009, the economy dropped out. admittances went way down. it actually seems to me (a completely qualitative observation, i don't have stats) that they actually recovered during the following cycle somewhat (applications in 2009 for 2010 and applications in 2010 for 2011). this year, admissions have again been scaled back, but i don't think it's because of "the economy" or "the recession." it's politics. governors (mostly republican governors) are specifically targeting higher education and cutting it as much as possible.

my school is semi-public and in the last two years, the republican-led cuts to our endowment have been so severe that the school is now talking about ways to return to being fully private. to any of you headed to the great states of michigan and wisconsin, you should familiarize yourself with the political circumstances surrounding the attack on higher education in those states. you'll be on the front lines of it soon enough...

[uhohlemonster]

Hey all. As we start our Friday, I just want to say good luck to all of us. I personally haven't received good news yet, and I know I'm not alone... but it is far from over! I hope some of us get good news this Friday so we can have a fun, relaxing weekend.

PS - History geek update: I'm going to the New York Historical Society today with my family. I'll let you know how it is - they just renovated and I'm excited to see the new space and exhibits.

Edited February 24, 2012 by uhohlemonster

[lureynol]

Guys... I got into Cambridge!

[oseirus]

Guys... I got into Cambridge!

congrats!

[Tigalily]

Congratulations!

[TMP]

Re: budget

In a way, there's a reason why there was so much shock over Michigan history department's decision to suspend admissions for 2012. Michigan has an excellent endowment. Only 5%-10% of its total budget is from the state so the state money doesn't really affect the overall University budget. So much of the University of Michigan's money come from other sources. There are financial geniuses there who knew how to invest wisely so the University wouldn't collapse the way other state university systems did as badly. So when the news of the History department choosing to suspend admissions for 2012, it was shocking. Even one of my mentors who's in another department but is friendly with some of the History faculty, was very surprised. He did think the fact that the 2011 cohort was 34 students was unusually high and ridiculous. The DGS simply miscalculated or/and just couldn't handle the departmental politics and be able to say "No, you can't have more than 2 new students, pick 2 out of the 5 you want." Given Michigan's wealth, it was indeed surprising that they closed admissions altogether (with some exceptions where they DO share funding with other departments).

In incredible contrast, (data to back it up on UW-M's site), Wisconsin over-enrolled in 2010 but were actually able to admit students in 2011. In 2010, they took in about 35 or so students but significantly cut to 17 for 2011. I imagine that this year is aiming for 20 total. My UW-M POI made these excellent points that the department was seriously committed to bringing in new PhDs, even if only to open the doors just a crack. Painful cuts for the department but they'd rather try to take in a few exceptional new students than to lose out an entire cohort of talented students.

So you get my drift. Sometimes, we have to wonder, which scenario is really better for the program and students?

[goldielocks]

Guys... I got into Cambridge!

Congratulations!

[cooperstreet]

I do think that the decreasing class size of so many of these Phd programs will serve as a corrective to the horrendous job market in academia.

[oseirus]

Well there are two issues here, sorry to be somewhat overly political, but that was my previous career so I come from a particular angle on this.

1. In some of the strongest Midwest state university systems (e.g. IU, OSU, UW-M) there were significant budget cuts in education due to the 2010 gubernatorial election results, in some cases even as there was a surplus in other areas. That certainly reduces the total spending on universities overall, which then means fewer PhD spots all around. Or in some cases a change to where PhD funding goes, so Gov. Rick Scott in Florida has literally come out and said he doesn't see the need to support social science and humanities education spending.

2. The end of state funding from the Stimulus package in 2009 has reduced the amount states and cities receive from all types of funding, but particularly Medicaid spending among others. This has the effect of reducing overall state budgets, which since many states have balanced budget amendments but requirements on Medicaid and other funding, has let them to cut funding in education and other areas.

The economy is certainly better than it was in early 2009, but we are now seeing the results of state based austerity measures in education funding that will require at least several more years to reverse. That's if states even decide they want to return to education funding levels of pre-2008 - which I'm not sure they will, but time will tell.

Whilst that may help explain the decrease in admittance at public programs, it still doesn't explain why the private schools are also cutting back or maybe I'm missing something here.

[Agora]

Congrats on Cambridge! I was accepted to do a PhD there back in December. I'm unlikely to go, but it would be a dream to live there for a few years. Do you have a college assignment?

[TMP]

Endowments generally were down 10-20%